*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***

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VanZandt92
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In reply to bangobango • 2:13p, 1/10/18
bangobango said:
Quote:
That sequel is Disney/Lucasfilm's current release Star Wars: The Last Jedi. With China now clearly a huge bust for the picture, $1.4 billion in global receipts is a pipe dream, and even $1.3 billion might be a stretch. Which means Episode VIII: The Last Jedi will earn at least $700 million less in global box office revenue, and probably closer to $800 million less, than the $2.07 billion total of Episode VII: The Force Awakens (Rogue One: A Star Wars Story may have immediately preceeded Last Jedi, but it is properly classified as a spin-off, not a sequel, so I didn't include it in this analysis). That's easily a $200 million bigger drop than the previous sequel-to-sequel record holder, Transformers: The Last Knight, which collected nearly $500 million less than Transformers 4's 2014 total of $1.1 billion. The Last Jedi is the new all-time champion of sequel collapses.

Quote:
The apologists also claim that $1.2 or $1.3 billion is a huge total, and that on that point alone, The Last Jedimust be deemed a big success. I can't deny that $1.3 billion is a lot of money, but the argument is nevertheless still fallacious in my opinion. It's as if Disney invested a huge amount of money to get Albert Pujols in his prime, and after a 47 home run season, the next year he hit 28. Sure, you could argue that for most players, 28 home runs would be great. But for Albert Pujols in his prime, it stinks. Disney didn't pay hundreds of millions for production costs and marketing to make a movie that will earn nearly 40 percent less than its predecessor.

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I don't mind saying that you enjoyed the movie. I don't mind saying you don't understand how so many can hate it so much.

What drives me crazy is some of you acting like this is just a few random nuts on reddit or Texags and everybody else just loves it. Once you get past the huge corporate media conglomerates (that are probably at least partially owned by Disney), the feedback on this movie is almost universally negative.

I've said this several times in this thread, but this was a damaging blow to this franchise, the full repercussions of which will not be known for many years. Perhaps JJ Abrams can pull it out of the fire with the third movie. I certainly hope so.

They're going to have to figure out what makes Star Wars so beloved wasn't just the blaster and the "light swords."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/06/last-jedi-has-set-its-first-box-office-record-biggest-ever-sequel-to-sequel-plunge/#745cfc4c42ee


On this point, as I have stated, I went through other sources of audience reviews after realizing there was such a controversy about RT. One easy source is the NYT article reader comments. If you read them, there is a good deal of criticism and they aren't the same folks. NYT readers also go quite outside the range of "fanboys". The same holds true for RT in the samples I read, which were many. Also, the Jedi Forums show similar criticism consistently. Any source you pick for audience reviews show wide ranging negative criticism. Yes there is positive mixed in , but to disregard the RT reviews would not reflect reality.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to bangobango • 2:14p, 1/10/18
AG
Quote:
The Last Jedi is the new all-time champion of sequel collapses.
I don't even know where to begin in responding to this. This is such a dumb line. The author of this article is clearly more interested in clickbaiting than anything else.

TFA made $940M domestically. It's the all-time box office champion by a huge margin. Literally nobody expected it to come close to TFA's total, either domestically or internationally. It was anomaly for a variety of reasons.

I don't consider myself an expert, but clearly I know more about box office than this person.

But, sure. There are a lot of ways to make this look like an epic failure if you really want.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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2:21p, 1/10/18
AG
And just to throw out some more stats about epic sequel collapses --

Adjusted for inflation (Domestic):
Star Wars - $1.59 B
ESB - $876 M

Difference: -$717 M.

And that's in the US alone.

That's an absolutely catastrophic collapse. It's a wonder the series was able to stay alive after this.
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to VanZandt92 • 2:50p, 1/10/18
AG
I feel like there are other parameters which can't be ignored with something like NYT comments, etc.

1. It's a Star Wars movie. The publicity is so high that you generally will have more gross reviews and views. There are more negative comments for this movie on such a forum than other movies because more people are seeing it in the first place, and people are more inclined to spend the time to negatively comment an extremely big movie than say a smaller production.

2. Again, some people only add reviews to channels such as that when they have a negative response. There are likely more "silent" positive reviews than negative ones. I liken this to somebody reviewing a restaurant on yelp. If it blew them away (like Godfather), easy 5*, and they'll likely review it. If it was above average but not 5*, they may not go through the effort to chime in. If it was bad for them, or below expectations, they would definitely go review with a low star rating and comment.
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Belton Ag
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2:56p, 1/10/18
AG
Good to know the people and family members I know who liked the movie are actually, apparently, robots built and programmed by the Disney corporate conglomerate machine.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to VanZandt92 • 3:08p, 1/10/18
AG
VanZandt92 said:
bangobango said:
Quote:
That sequel is Disney/Lucasfilm's current release Star Wars: The Last Jedi. With China now clearly a huge bust for the picture, $1.4 billion in global receipts is a pipe dream, and even $1.3 billion might be a stretch. Which means Episode VIII: The Last Jedi will earn at least $700 million less in global box office revenue, and probably closer to $800 million less, than the $2.07 billion total of Episode VII: The Force Awakens (Rogue One: A Star Wars Story may have immediately preceeded Last Jedi, but it is properly classified as a spin-off, not a sequel, so I didn't include it in this analysis). That's easily a $200 million bigger drop than the previous sequel-to-sequel record holder, Transformers: The Last Knight, which collected nearly $500 million less than Transformers 4's 2014 total of $1.1 billion. The Last Jedi is the new all-time champion of sequel collapses.

Quote:
The apologists also claim that $1.2 or $1.3 billion is a huge total, and that on that point alone, The Last Jedimust be deemed a big success. I can't deny that $1.3 billion is a lot of money, but the argument is nevertheless still fallacious in my opinion. It's as if Disney invested a huge amount of money to get Albert Pujols in his prime, and after a 47 home run season, the next year he hit 28. Sure, you could argue that for most players, 28 home runs would be great. But for Albert Pujols in his prime, it stinks. Disney didn't pay hundreds of millions for production costs and marketing to make a movie that will earn nearly 40 percent less than its predecessor.

?width=960

I don't mind saying that you enjoyed the movie. I don't mind saying you don't understand how so many can hate it so much.

What drives me crazy is some of you acting like this is just a few random nuts on reddit or Texags and everybody else just loves it. Once you get past the huge corporate media conglomerates (that are probably at least partially owned by Disney), the feedback on this movie is almost universally negative.

I've said this several times in this thread, but this was a damaging blow to this franchise, the full repercussions of which will not be known for many years. Perhaps JJ Abrams can pull it out of the fire with the third movie. I certainly hope so.

They're going to have to figure out what makes Star Wars so beloved wasn't just the blaster and the "light swords."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/06/last-jedi-has-set-its-first-box-office-record-biggest-ever-sequel-to-sequel-plunge/#745cfc4c42ee


On this point, as I have stated, I went through other sources of audience reviews after realizing there was such a controversy about RT. One easy source is the NYT article reader comments. If you read them, there is a good deal of criticism and they aren't the same folks. NYT readers also go quite outside the range of "fanboys". The same holds true for RT in the samples I read, which were many. Also, the Jedi Forums show similar criticism consistently. Any source you pick for audience reviews show wide ranging negative criticism. Yes there is positive mixed in , but to disregard the RT reviews would not reflect reality.

I don't disregard it completely....but it is out line with other things in how overly negative it is, and therefore makes me think there is some bias there and coordinated effort. I'd buy 65% even something like that. But there were so many instant negative votes there....like 100-150K+ within a day or two of release which is highly skeptical. Considering there were only 225K votes there for TFA and it has been out 2 + years. Thats odd.

And the best counter example is IMDB which is 7.5/10 with 280K voters. Thats a larger sample and IMDB is full of many active users who vote on pretty much everything they see. It has a very solid history of being pretty fair and realistic.

Now IMDB has removed all user comments a couple of years back - because it had become so toxic and was just a feeding frenzy for fanboy film bashing of anything popular. Thats what makes me think the voting on RT is where those fanboys moved so they could verbalize their dislike.

I accept that there is a significant portion displeased by the movie. But calling it a bomb or claiming it is that unpopular is just wrong seeing the box office and plenty of positive views out there. And even using the drop from TFA is a bit much - everyone knew that was an outlier. Anything near $1.5B is gonna be a big success still....and it should get there or close with foreign BO trailing in and domestic still rolling along.









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Dr. Teeth
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3:11p, 1/10/18
AG
Lots of people liked it, sure.

You know who didn't? The ones that would have gone to see it 4 or 5 times in theaters.

Seriously, do you know ANYONE that's seen this more than twice? I saw TFA 5 times, regular format, 3D, IMAX, I did it all. Same with R1. TLJ, I saw twice and the second time I didn't pay to see it. (And before you call me out as a criminal, I went with a family member that works at the theater and one of his perks is seeing movies for free and bringin a guest if it's not sold out.)
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Dr. Teeth • 3:32p, 1/10/18
AG
Dr. Teeth said:
Lots of people liked it, sure.

You know who didn't? The ones that would have gone to see it 4 or 5 times in theaters.

Seriously, do you know ANYONE that's seen this more than twice? I saw TFA 5 times, regular format, 3D, IMAX, I did it all. Same with R1. TLJ, I saw twice and the second time I didn't pay to see it. (And before you call me out as a criminal, I went with a family member that works at the theater and one of his perks is seeing movies for free and bringin a guest if it's not sold out.)

I've seen it 3 times already and my daughter and I almost went again the other day.... just had a conflict last minute. Definitely will with the kids before they go back to college so likely this weekend will be #4.

I only saw TFA twice in the theater before I was kinda bored with it, all the retreaded stuff. I've seen ti a third time all the way through on Blu-Ray at home and flip by occasionally on premium movie channels although I rarely watch long. We spent more of our time going back and watching the OT at home after TFA.

I saw RO three times in the theater also and a 4th at home on Blu-Ray too.



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brents1975
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In reply to Dr. Teeth • 3:52p, 1/10/18
Dr. Teeth said:
Seriously, do you know ANYONE that's seen this more than twice?

I've seen this movie 5 times... I really like this movie.
"That's a loss for our football team." - Dennis Franchione
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Cinco Ranch Aggie
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3:53p, 1/10/18
AG
I saw TFA 4 times in the theater. RO was my lowest theatrical count of any SW movie, at 2 times. I've seen TLJ 3 times. That's likely all I'll do for theatrical viewings, unless I get a wild hair one afternoon and skip out on everything else to take it in a 4th time. 4 viewings has been my typical theatrical count since AOTC. I believe I saw TPM 5 times. As for the OT, I lost count somewhere at about 12-13 for TESB and ROTJ, and going on 20 for SW.
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Iowaggie
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In reply to Dr. Teeth • 3:54p, 1/10/18
AG
Dr. Teeth said:
Lots of people liked it, sure.

You know who didn't? The ones that would have gone to see it 4 or 5 times in theaters.

Seriously, do you know ANYONE that's seen this more than twice? I saw TFA 5 times, regular format, 3D, IMAX, I did it all. Same with R1. TLJ, I saw twice and the second time I didn't pay to see it. (And before you call me out as a criminal, I went with a family member that works at the theater and one of his perks is seeing movies for free and bringin a guest if it's not sold out.)

This has been my experience.
Enthusiasm for a franchise that now ranges from apathy to disgust.

And maybe it depends on the age. My kids have enjoyed it, but they also like Captain Underpants.
Older viewers who had emotional interest and knowledge of the series....the more they discuss it, the more frustrated they get with it.
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Liquid Wrench
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3:56p, 1/10/18
The most important thing I've learned from this board is that anyone you disagree with is a "fanboy."

People who have different opinions on any subject are toxic fanboys who spam the internet with their opinions.

People who agree with me are, of course, reasonable fans who represent the silent majority who like everything and are "so hype" for the next release.
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Ag Since 83
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4:20p, 1/10/18
AG
I saw TFA 5 Times in the theater. I liked Rogue One more but only saw it 4 times. I've seen TLJ twice and will probably go back at some point. So far it's the length making me hesitant to go back.
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DannyDuberstein
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4:21p, 1/10/18
AG
By everything I can see, there are large #'s on both sides covering a wide range.

Most of it seems to boil down to how much you dislike/hate some of the key issues. Many that like it are of the mind that "hey, I acknowledge that X, Y, and Z were a problem or could be a problem, but they didn't ruin it for me", while for others, that same X, Y, and Z were bad enough to ruin it.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 4:44p, 1/10/18
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
By everything I can see, there are large #'s on both sides covering a wide range.

Most of it seems to boil down to how much you dislike/hate some of the key issues. Many that like it are of the mind that "hey, I acknowledge that X, Y, and Z were a problem or could be a problem, but they didn't ruin it for me", while for others, that same X, Y, and Z were bad enough to ruin it.

Very true......


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Liquid Wrench
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 4:48p, 1/10/18
If you just went in to check out the special effects and latest critters, it could have been great.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Iowaggie • 4:48p, 1/10/18
AG
Iowaggie said:
Dr. Teeth said:
Lots of people liked it, sure.

You know who didn't? The ones that would have gone to see it 4 or 5 times in theaters.

Seriously, do you know ANYONE that's seen this more than twice? I saw TFA 5 times, regular format, 3D, IMAX, I did it all. Same with R1. TLJ, I saw twice and the second time I didn't pay to see it. (And before you call me out as a criminal, I went with a family member that works at the theater and one of his perks is seeing movies for free and bringin a guest if it's not sold out.)

This has been my experience.
Enthusiasm for a franchise that now ranges from apathy to disgust.

And maybe it depends on the age. My kids have enjoyed it, but they also like Captain Underpants.
Older viewers who had emotional interest and knowledge of the series....the more they discuss it, the more frustrated they get with it.

Disagree completely.....

I consider myself an "older" invested viewer....saw SW in theaters in 77 as an 11 year old (prime SW fan age) and probably went 25 times to see it. changed my life.

Nobody I know that is older than me hates it - parents, siblings, spouses, in-laws etc.

And our younger generation also mostly all love it - mostly 14-26 year old kids and cousins, friends etc. Admittedly my son has one friend that hated it. But he is a weird dude anyway and an ultra fanboy type.


The only ones I know IRL that hate it are between those ages like 30-45 ish. and it is definitely >50% in that demo.




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Liquid Wrench
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 4:53p, 1/10/18
Honest question: how many people in real life have you surveyed about the latest Star Wars movie?

You keep bringing up "real life," but I was being perfectly honest in an earlier post when I said I don't know people in real life who sit around giving each other detailed reviews of Star Wars movies and that's what this message board is for.
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FTACO97
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4:57p, 1/10/18
AG
I just love how the RT audience score keeps getting trotted out in this thread as the golden master on what everyone feels about the film. Currently it has ~172k ratings and the average is 3/5. So, if this film has done $1.2billion so far worldwide, at $8 a ticket, around 150 million people have seen it. So the 172,000 ratings is .0011 or 0.1% of the total viewers. Sure, it's nice to throw it around to support your side and claim it's a failure and "everyone hates it", but that's far removed from truth.

As has been mentioned numerous times, IMDB is sitting at 7.6/10 and CinemaScore sits at an A. Not to mention the articles brought up previously that RT isn't reliable based on how they connect to reviewers and that there was some funny business going on in the first few days.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Liquid Wrench • 5:17p, 1/10/18
AG
ChiliBeans said:
Honest question: how many people in real life have you surveyed about the latest Star Wars movie?

You keep bringing up "real life," but I was being perfectly honest in an earlier post when I said I don't know people in real life who sit around giving each other detailed reviews of Star Wars movies and that's what this message board is for.


I'd say 40-50.

Surveyed is not how I'd put it though. Movies are a huge thing in my family. Everyone sees them. And I've seen tons of family over the holidays. And unsolicited really SW came up every time. Most brought it up with me knowing what a big fan I am. Although they usually gave me their opinion first. I was curious and more listening than talking.

That's easily 25-30 people.

The rest are primarily my poker group. Who discuss nearly everything like that at some point. And over 2-3 weeks I've played 3 times and it's been talked about each time. That was more negative than other demos. That's another 10 or so.

The last group is some people I work with periodically. I was onsite at their medical office after NY and it came up in a lunch discisssion. Mostly favorable there too. That's 5-6 people.
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bangobango
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In reply to FTACO97 • 5:19p, 1/10/18
AG
FTACO97 said:
I just love how the RT audience score keeps getting trotted out in this thread as the golden master on what everyone feels about the film. Currently it has ~172k ratings and the average is 3/5. So, if this film has done $1.2billion so far worldwide, at $8 a ticket, around 150 million people have seen it. So the 172,000 ratings is .0011 or 0.1% of the total viewers. Sure, it's nice to throw it around to support your side and claim it's a failure and "everyone hates it", but that's far removed from truth.

As has been mentioned numerous times, IMDB is sitting at 7.6/10 and CinemaScore sits at an A. Not to mention the articles brought up previously that RT isn't reliable based on how they connect to reviewers and that there was some funny business going on in the first few days.
Funny.

Box office numbers don't look great (for what was expected), there's some excuse.

Viewer ratings not that great, there's some excuse.

People all over Texags and rest of the internet saying it was bad, there's some excuse.

Maybe Disney or some other pro-Disney people influenced the CinemaScore and IMDB ratings to inflate them? I have as much proof of that as there is proof that the RT scores are inflated the other way, yet everyone keeps trotting out that excuse b/c some dip made a facebook post taking credit for it.

Again, I have never seen such media goal tending for a film.
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bangobango
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 5:20p, 1/10/18
AG
BernArnold said:
ChiliBeans said:
Honest question: how many people in real life have you surveyed about the latest Star Wars movie?

You keep bringing up "real life," but I was being perfectly honest in an earlier post when I said I don't know people in real life who sit around giving each other detailed reviews of Star Wars movies and that's what this message board is for.


I'd say 40-50.

Surveyed is not how I'd put it though. Movies are a huge thing in my family. Everyone sees them. And I've seen tons of family over the holidays. And unsolicited really SW came up every time. Most brought it up with me knowing what a big fan I am. Although they usually gave me their opinion first. I was curious and more listening than talking.

That's easily 25-30 people.

The rest are primarily my poker group. Who discuss nearly everything like that at some point. And over 2-3 weeks I've played 3 times and it's been talked about each time. That was more negative than other demos. That's another 10 or so.

The last group is some people I work with periodically. I was onsite at their medical office after NY and it came up in a lunch discisssion. Mostly favorable there too. That's 5-6 people.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to bangobango • 5:28p, 1/10/18
AG
Your point?

I never said it was a huge number. But when it's mostly fans and movie goers and the ratio is about 80% loved it that just tells me the online results are skewed.

And these are not people who just like everything. Many are very picky and or opinionated.

I just do not have any reactions in real life that mirror online. Most when I bring up the typical big complaints just brush that off and say they enjoyed it.

I'm just not seeing that overly negative reaction.

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VanZandt92
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In reply to Liquid Wrench • 5:52p, 1/10/18
ChiliBeans said:
The most important thing I've learned from this board is that anyone you disagree with is a "fanboy."

People who have different opinions on any subject are toxic fanboys who spam the internet with their opinions.

People who agree with me are, of course, reasonable fans who represent the silent majority who like everything and are "so hype" for the next release.
I'm laughing.
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VanZandt92
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In reply to Liquid Wrench • 5:53p, 1/10/18
ChiliBeans said:
If you just went in to check out the special effects and latest critters, it could have been great.
My 13 year happened to point out that the new aliens and the number of cool planets visited in the Last Jedi were too few and far between. The kid knows his Star Wars.
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VanZandt92
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5:55p, 1/10/18
We should all play poker together.
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redline248
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8:49p, 1/10/18
AG
How many of you can't wait to read this?

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bangobango
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In reply to redline248 • 9:06p, 1/10/18
AG
redline248 said:
How many of you can't wait to read this?

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bangobango
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 9:08p, 1/10/18
AG
I don't know you man and you may be being 100% honest and forthright I have no idea, but I will never believe you have actually talked to 40-50 people about this movie. Sorry.
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Liquid Wrench
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In reply to bangobango • 9:41p, 1/10/18
bangobango said:
I don't know you man and you may be being 100% honest and forthright I have no idea, but I will never believe you have actually talked to 40-50 people about this movie. Sorry.
Maybe he wears Star Wars hats and tshirts all the time. I sometimes have strangers trying to talk to me about the Texans or Astros because they noticed the hat I forgot I was wearing.
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fig96
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3:14a, 1/11/18
AG
I really do wonder if the phenomenon of Star Wars Fatigue is a very real cause here.

First off, whether there was a massive underground review rebellion or there's tens of thousands of Lucasfilm robots writing reviews out there doesn't really matter. The film is getting at least generally positive reviews, and box office and film quality have only ever been loosely correlated at best.

But if we go back to TFA, that film was an event . The first new Star Wars film in over a decade, new director, new characters, new worlds, coverage on every channel you can think of...the hype was just off the charts.

Even Rogue One was a pretty big deal, the first Star Wars spinoff. Would it be different, would it work? And most of us agree it was a pretty great success.

And now TLJ...the third Star Wars film in three years, along with animated series and video games and new toys and merch. I was certainly excited to see it, but there wasn't that crazy anticipation like there was for the others. And I'd imagine many other people felt the same way.

I hate to say it, but a Star Wars release just isn't quite as special as it was even a few years ago.
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aggiebird02
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In reply to bangobango • 3:41a, 1/11/18
bangobango said:
I don't know you man and you may be being 100% honest and forthright I have no idea, but I will never believe you have actually talked to 40-50 people about this movie. Sorry.
I've probably talked to that many people about Episode VIII. Maybe a few less, maybe a lot more, I couldn't be sure. So not only is it reasonable for them to have done it, it's very likely that they did...
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aggiebird02
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In reply to fig96 • 3:47a, 1/11/18
fig96 said:
I really do wonder if the phenomenon of Star Wars Fatigue is a very real cause here.

First off, whether there was a massive underground review rebellion or there's tens of thousands of Lucasfilm robots writing reviews out there doesn't really matter. The film is getting at least generally positive reviews, and box office and film quality have only ever been loosely correlated at best.

But if we go back to TFA, that film was an event . The first new Star Wars film in over a decade, new director, new characters, new worlds, coverage on every channel you can think of...the hype was just off the charts.

Even Rogue One was a pretty big deal, the first Star Wars spinoff. Would it be different, would it work? And most of us agree it was a pretty great success.

And now TLJ...the third Star Wars film in three years, along with animated series and video games and new toys and merch. I was certainly excited to see it, but there wasn't that crazy anticipation like there was for the others. And I'd imagine many other people felt the same way.

I hate to say it, but a Star Wars release just isn't quite as special as it was even a few years ago.
Yeah. Waiting years and years, and sometimes more than a decade will get you pumped up. Believe it or not, but I'm actually a StarWars hyper-fan-boy for over 3.5 decades. It's true! So I get geeked up beyond what's normal, but I can see this being a real cause for the 'Luke' -warm reception...
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bangobango
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In reply to aggiebird02 • 7:59a, 1/11/18
AG
Not buying it and just because maybe two of you did it, doesn't make it reasonable.
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Belton Ag
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In reply to bangobango • 8:10a, 1/11/18
AG
bangobango said:
I don't know you man and you may be being 100% honest and forthright I have no idea, but I will never believe you have actually talked to 40-50 people about this movie. Sorry.
You've made the claim on this thread that - beyond the apparent pressure Disney has placed on other media outlets to falsify their ratings for the film - the response to the film is "almost universally negative." That claim is bull***** It's not universally loved, to be sure, and it's falling below what they'd hoped, but it's not "universally negative." And it's not going to be some franchise killer.

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