I do admit that the total "freedom" given to Rian, while sounding cool at first, is kind of crazy considering all the questions TFA raised.
*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***
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I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that they've learned a lesson from all this, and from now on there will be a more coordinated effort going forward...Brian Earl Spilner said:
I do admit that the total "freedom" given to Rian, while sounding cool at first, is kind of crazy considering all the questions TFA raised.
I liked it, and thought Luke was redeemed at the end. He basically went all Yoda/Obi Wan and hid himself away because of a mistake but then realizes the mistake wasn't so bad, got the **** up, and went out to spark the rebellion one last time.
Really not as bad as I thought it'd be given such "divisiveness" being reported.
Really not as bad as I thought it'd be given such "divisiveness" being reported.
Saul Goodman said:
Let's be honest, if you put TLJ on the same level as Ep 1&2, your opinion on movies is forever null and void.
Ah a post with a complete lack of critical thinking. So you liked The Last Jedi. Ok . Don't mind dead end plots, irritating characters and bad jokes I see.
aggiephoenix02 said:I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that they've learned a lesson from all this, and from now on there will be a more coordinated effort going forward...Brian Earl Spilner said:
I do admit that the total "freedom" given to Rian, while sounding cool at first, is kind of crazy considering all the questions TFA raised.
How about some storyboards and editing?
So you've just described large parts of Eps 1 and 2.wesag said:Saul Goodman said:
Let's be honest, if you put TLJ on the same level as Ep 1&2, your opinion on movies is forever null and void.
Ah a post with a complete lack of critical thinking. So you liked The Last Jedi. Ok . Don't mind dead end plots, irritating characters and bad jokes I see.
Some of y'all didn't like it, we get it by now, but this at least felt like a Star Wars film unlike most of the prequels.
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
Ive basically boiled it down to this. As a stand-alone movie it was alright; the plot was full of holes but the movie progressed, was entertaining, visually excellent, etc.
For a Star Wars story, especially one that continues the previous story and is supposed to make advancements and develop the characters more, it was bantha pudu awful.
Imagine your driving down the highway at night with JJ Abrams and you simultaneously hit a pothole that you didn't see and swerve into a deer in the road. You are too injured to drive.
Now JJ Abrams has to bury a dead deer and fix a flat tire (or piggy back us to our destination).
For a Star Wars story, especially one that continues the previous story and is supposed to make advancements and develop the characters more, it was bantha pudu awful.
Imagine your driving down the highway at night with JJ Abrams and you simultaneously hit a pothole that you didn't see and swerve into a deer in the road. You are too injured to drive.
Now JJ Abrams has to bury a dead deer and fix a flat tire (or piggy back us to our destination).
Quote:
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
Well, for some of us it feels like RJ set out a plate of dog **** and had all of his buddies tell us it was filet mignon.
Of course, we are going to argue that it is in fact a plate of dog ****.
If you like eating dog ****, you go right ahead.
That said, while I like the film, I recognize many did not, and I don't think Lucasfilm should take that lightly. Abrams has essentially had the two toughest assignments since Disney acquired the SW property. For TFA he had to rejuvenate excitement and restore faith in the franchise. It looks like he will be asked to do so again but the context of the job is different, and he has to do something he does not do all that great, close strong. This is going to be interesting.
As for Rian, they probably should have given him a standalone as a trial balloon, and then let him take his own trilogy. I think one individual should oversee a trilogy from start to finish. If Rian really did spend more time with the story group than previous writers/directors, then we should all be a bit nervous about this franchise.
As for Rian, they probably should have given him a standalone as a trial balloon, and then let him take his own trilogy. I think one individual should oversee a trilogy from start to finish. If Rian really did spend more time with the story group than previous writers/directors, then we should all be a bit nervous about this franchise.
This is my fear - that its the Disney Story Group shaping this and its failing to connect with Star Wars fans, spectacularly so.Quote:
If Rian really did spend more time with the story group than previous writers/directors, then we should all be a bit nervous about this franchise.
Also, didn't Rian make a pot joke on instagram while in post-production? If so, might explain the finished product.
I am interested to see what they deleted from the film.
edit: meant to put "wink" emoticon.
I am interested to see what they deleted from the film.
edit: meant to put "wink" emoticon.
I think the opposite is true as well, those that liked it dead set on trying to find ways to make others like it.CJS4715 said:
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
Can't say I agree.DannyDuberstein said:I think the opposite is true as well, those that liked it dead set on trying to find ways to make others like it.CJS4715 said:
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
Most of us on here who liked it have stated that we can see some of the argument against it but still enjoyed it. People are entitled to like or dislike what they like. (Though I do think it's silly to attempt to compare it to some other really poorly made films.)
Some who disagree, however, seem to be taking every opportunity to bash it in reply to anything positive mentioned and tell the people who did enjoy it what idiots they are.
That's fair. I guess SW (and really all franchises) are full of mental gymnastic defenses.
DannyDuberstein said:I think the opposite is true as well, those that liked it dead set on trying to find ways to make others like it.CJS4715 said:
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
Nah...not what I've seen here. Most of them (like me) just say "well I liked it, sure there were a few problems but...."
I'm not trying to convince anyone to like it, but certainly have pointed out criticisms I think are silly.
Example: Criticism that we got no Snoke background story... really? that was complete fan buildup. Nobody ever said we would get that. And it is not any different than The Emperor from Ep. V and VI. He was Vader's master thats all we really knew. No back story until the prequels 16 years later.
Example: No resolution to some story point from TFA - well it's the middle movie, let's see how it plays out. It either wasn't important or it was and will be addressed.
Now there was bad - Finn/Rose/Casino/Horses/Code Breaker - and thats justified. But there was so much good as well. But what SW movie since ESB did not have bad and good parts (ewoks and deity c3po, arena battle, most of Ep. 1 outside of darth maul battle, creepy romance, poor acting, green screen crap). and even the original SW and ESB had some criticisms that we all just ignore now because they are elevated so high.
At least this had good acting, very good actually, very little green screen type crap, etc. and some great action and some good story points too. The bad to me makes up < 20% of the movie.
I think the worst you could say about this movie is it is just ok - good and bad evened out - but people trying to paint it as one of the worst movies of all time is just absurd. And people are saying that I think they are overcompensating in their negativity because it failed to meet their lofty expectations and they want everyone to feel as letdown as they are. Well sorry....I enjoyed it even though there were a few places it fell flat.
Neither side is going to convince the others to change their mind.... I've been flabbergasted of late to find out there are people of a certain age it seems that grew up on the prequels that actually like them...so I am not shocked by people hating this. There is no accounting for peoples taste sometimes.
Disagree completely. Some have bashed the film extremely harshly, but those posters are also the ones on the receiving end of most of the personal attacks. If someone feels like an idiot because someone harshly bashed a film they liked, that's their problem, not a personal attack. But overall, the flow seems to be "this film sucks and X is why" some of which may be fair and some maybe unfair, while the defense oftentimes seems to be directed toward the poster himself. Taking the most extreme example - cbr went nuclear on the film but I haven't noted many comments about other posters. On the flipside, there's been quite a bit of venom pointed directly at cbr.
On a positive note I think this all bodes well for the finale Ep. IX......
Those who enjoyed VIII are fine going along with the ride and direction and willing to see how it plays out and will likely be satisfied by a JJ Abrams finale.
Those that hated it will have very very low expectations now for the finale and will likely be pleasantly surprised and therefore overrate it higher.
So my early prediction is Ep. IX tops Ep. VII in BO.
DannyDuberstein said:
Disagree completely. Some have bashed the film extremely harshly, but those posters are also the ones on the receiving end of most of the personal attacks. If someone feels like an idiot because someone harshly bashed a film they liked, that's their problem, not a personal attack. But overall, the flow seems to be "this film sucks and X is why", while the defense to that is directed toward the poster himself.
completely disagree...please show me examples.
show me the personal attacks on haters please.
most of the name calling is the haters calling anyone who likes it idiots. And no that doesn't make me feel anything except completely ignoring someone's opinion if they go that way.
Hope Kylo destroys Ahch-To and its inhabitants. It will create unexpected #s of Kylo fans similar to Steve Austin accidental face turn in the late 90s.
I haven't seen anyone called an idiot for liking it. I've seen the film and characters in the film called idiotic a ton. The most personal shots taken directly at posters seem to be against those that didn't care for the SJW portions of the film.
I don't really agree with that.DannyDuberstein said:I think the opposite is true as well, those that liked it dead set on trying to find ways to make others like it.CJS4715 said:
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
Most that liked the movie (myself included) still have problems with it. It's just that the good outweighed the bad. We readily admit the flaws and agree with those who disliked the film on those points.
Those that hated the film seem so blinded by their hatred that they can't bring themselves to say anything nice about it. Take the poster a few posts up who called it a "plate of dogsh*t." That's a little extreme that they couldn't find anything redeemable in it and seems to encapsulate the mindset of the film's detractors.
If this movie causes so many people to abandon the franchise, I question how in the world they ever made it past The Phantom Menace.
I still think Kathleen Kennedy is still firmly in charge of the franchise and it's progress. I mean, she did fire Lord & Miller from Solo because she didn't agree with the direction they were taking it.SpreadsheetAg said:This is my fear - that its the Disney Story Group shaping this and its failing to connect with Star Wars fans, spectacularly so.Quote:
If Rian really did spend more time with the story group than previous writers/directors, then we should all be a bit nervous about this franchise.
She did allow Johnson to take some risks with TLJ. Risks that I don't think she will ever allow again after the response from fans.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because this movie was basically an exercise in character development. IMO.Quote:
For a Star Wars story, especially one that continues the previous story and is supposed to make advancements and develop the characters more, it was bantha pudu awful.
Finn - Was just a disloyal deserter of the FO and almost of the Resistance. He ended the movie having fully committed to the cause and ready to die for it. (And not just for Rey.)
Poe - Whether you liked Holdo's character or not, Poe is definitely a different character by the end of this movie, primed to take over for the Resistance now that Leia will be gone. The complaints about how Holdo went about teaching him these lessons is up for debate, but Poe definitely developed in this movie.
Kylo - Not only did he commit himself fully to the dark side by killing Snoke, but we also got to learn a bit more about his backstory and what caused him to turn in the first place. And that scene where he is pleading with Rey to join him shows how pathetic he really is. He might be fully on the dark side, but is just as lonely as Rey is.
Rey - Her development was slightly less clear-cut than the above mentioned characters, but she definitely is not a stagnant character. She has finally stopped trying to hold on to the past and accepted the truth about her parents, and has learned what the Force truly is. Also, she's not quite as naive and wide-eyed as she was at the end of TFA, where she thought Luke could just come back and save the entire Resistance by himself.
Great points. Not to mention, Luke - probably my favorite character development in the whole movie.
DannyDuberstein said:
I haven't seen anyone called an idiot for liking it. I've seen the film and characters in the film called idiotic a ton. The most personal shots taken directly at posters seem to be against those that didn't care for the SJW portions of the film.
NOTE: his original quote which was edited before my reply I guess said "triggered" was used a ton by defenders of the movie.
If by "a ton" you mean 3 times......sure.
I did a search for the word "triggered" and it basically was used 3 times (and a 4th that does not count).....in 81 pages.
Although in most of those cases it went back and forth with both using it against the other but I count that as a single occurrence of a spat:
Case 1:
Used by cbr (who hated the movie) in reference to anyone defending the actions by the primarily female leadership of the resistance:
https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2916466/replies/50807746
And several follow-ups back and forth with Saxsoon....no you are, no you are, etc.......
Case 2:
Used by Saul Goodman (a defender of the movi)e here in a convo with WestAustinAg who viewed the entire movie through some SJW lens. again a back and forth ensues and other posters give many examples that don't fit the SJW viewpoint including myself (with no name calling).
https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2916466/replies/50865091
Case 3:
Another incident escalated by cbr (who hated the movie) in an argument with fig96 over the same tired SJW/females in charge hidden message of the movie.
https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2916466/replies/50876813
Case 4 - the unrelated case where I (BernArnold) used the word in a different context completely. Referring to what likely "triggered" Luke to use the force projection.
https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2916466/replies/50832696
So basically 3 instances of that used in this entire thread - including the back and forths and......
TWICE it was instigated by the HATER of the movie.
Are we done here????
Or can you please provide me with more examples of defenders throwing hatred and name calling???????
GiveEmHellBill said:I don't really agree with that.DannyDuberstein said:I think the opposite is true as well, those that liked it dead set on trying to find ways to make others like it.CJS4715 said:
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
Most that liked the movie (myself included) still have problems with it. It's just that the good outweighed the bad. We readily admit the flaws and agree with those who disliked the film on those points.
Those that hated the film seem so blinded by their hatred that they can't bring themselves to say anything nice about it. Take the poster a few posts up who called it a "plate of dogsh*t." That's a little extreme that they couldn't find anything redeemable in it and seems to encapsulate the mindset of the film's detractors.
If this movie causes so many people to abandon the franchise, I question how in the world they ever made it past The Phantom Menace.
Well, this movie is much worse than Tpm in most important ways, but more importantly is WAY lower rated by fans, at least by online polls.
cbr said:
Well, this movie is much worse than Tpm in most important ways, but more importantly is WAY lower rated by fans, at least by online polls.
Untrue......I mean generically maybe in some cases....but not universally. the widely cited one is rotten tomatoes fan score...... but I'm pretty sure there was some concerted effort going on there because it does not line up with other ones I've seen.
For example probably the most highly respected rating of fans out there is IMDB and their fan ratings are:
TPM = 6.5 (with about 600k votes)
TLJ = 7.5 (with just under 300k votes so far but it will not change much at this point)
I'm pretty sure rotten tomatoes was not even around when TPM came out (but IMDB was) or was a fledgling entity at best with little traction/footprint. RT did not become widely used until maybe 2009ish....so I'm not sure I'd take RT rating of TPM to mean anything and it's still really low at 59%.
I'm not really sure I'd point to online polls in 2017/2018 as compared to any online polls from way back in 1999 and use that as a measurement of anything other than how much the world has changed with the internet in the past 19 years.Quote:
Well, this movie is much worse than Tpm in most important ways, but more importantly is WAY lower rated by fans, at least by online polls.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
Kylo - Not only did he commit himself fully to the dark side by killing Snoke, but we also got to learn a bit more about his backstory and what caused him to turn in the first place. And that scene where he is pleading with Rey to join him shows how pathetic he really is. He might be fully on the dark side, but is just as lonely as Rey is.
Kylo really is an interesting character. He's not a true believer; he is motivated by affirmation of his power and his place in the galaxy. He is seeking approval. Once it is clear to him he is not going to get it, he moves on to the next potential person to provide him affirmation; Han, Luke, Snoke, and now Rey. It is interesting when Rey looks to Kylo for some meaning or her place within this story as that is really what he needs from Rey.
The way it's going right now, Kylo Ren may end up being the most fascinating character in the entire Star Wars universe. And Adam Driver is just killing it, acting-wise.
Yep. Great point.
Some people also seem to think that every character should have a dramatic arc throughout a story (looking at you Rogue One video girl) which just isn't the case. Some characters don't change, or sometimes them holding to their beliefs is their journey.Brian Earl Spilner said:We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because this movie was basically an exercise in character development. IMO.Quote:
For a Star Wars story, especially one that continues the previous story and is supposed to make advancements and develop the characters more, it was bantha pudu awful.
Finn - Was just a disloyal deserter of the FO and almost of the Resistance. He ended the movie having fully committed to the cause and ready to die for it. (And not just for Rey.)
Poe - Whether you liked Holdo's character or not, Poe is definitely a different character by the end of this movie, primed to take over for the Resistance now that Leia will be gone. The complaints about how Holdo went about teaching him these lessons is up for debate, but Poe definitely developed in this movie.
Kylo - Not only did he commit himself fully to the dark side by killing Snoke, but we also got to learn a bit more about his backstory and what caused him to turn in the first place. And that scene where he is pleading with Rey to join him shows how pathetic he really is. He might be fully on the dark side, but is just as lonely as Rey is.
Rey - Her development was slightly less clear-cut than the above mentioned characters, but she definitely is not a stagnant character. She has finally stopped trying to hold on to the past and accepted the truth about her parents, and has learned what the Force truly is. Also, she's not quite as naive and wide-eyed as she was at the end of TFA, where she thought Luke could just come back and save the entire Resistance by himself.
What books, exactly? I've never read any Star Wars books, and it's my understanding that they tossed out a lot with TFA.aggiephoenix02 said:
A lot of your questions are answered in the books.
If you really want to know, and aren't just complaining to complain...
Those folks have been here forever, ie, see the post on the previous page stating someone's opinion on movies should be considered null and void if they dare to consider that TPM/AOTC may be better movies than TLJ.CJS4715 said:
It seems to me that there are people dead set on wanting others to hate this movie as much as they did.
For the record, I rank AOTC and TPM as the worst of the Star Wars movies. TLJ falls right in the middle. I've seen people claim that the prequels are steaming piles of crap, or some similar verbiage. There seem to be some who are considering TLJ in the same light. Those folks really should watch a lot more movies; they will find a lot of truly awful movies that do not even belong in the same universe as any legitimate Star Wars movie (legitimate defined as not being either of those mid-80s Ewok movies or the Star Wars Holiday Special that aired on TV in 1978).
The biggest problem with TPM, as I see it, was the time frame between May 25, 1983 and May 19, 1999 - the release dates of ROTJ and TPM. Sixteen years. A long time for people to form thoughts on what a potential Episode I should be. Heck, there was some time in there, throughout the remainder of the 80s, where Lucas himself did not seem to believe the prequels would be made. I'd dare say that TPM was the most anticipated movie in the history of movies. That movie was guaranteed to be a disappointment on some level given all the expectations and anticipation for it. We can argue all day about Jake Lloyd, Jar-Jar Binks, Trade Federation, etc, but I find it incredulous that anyone would suggest that The Phantom Menace was a worse movie than the POS that I watched in a theater early in the year of TPM's release just to see an initial preview of TPM (Wing Commander, awful movie).
I don't really have an understanding of what the demographic that grew up with the prequel trilogy thinks of this new trilogy. For me, the new trilogy has never really felt the same. I always viewed Star Wars as the story of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, so everything that comes after his death is somewhat unrelated. I get that they made Kylo Ren Vader's grandson, so there is a connection, but this trilogy still feels, to me, as an add-on, not part of the original story. And that's fine.
TLJ is a middle-of-the-pack Star Wars movie for me. It has far more great moments in it than bad. I really did not like Rose, or that whole "love is how we'll win" line, but her character does not offset the character developments we saw in Kylo and Rey, or even in Luke's arc.
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