I disagree. This one has more fundamental issues than many of them. This has some major time sunk into garbage plotlines and characters.
*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***
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Last: 6 mo ago by Definitely Not A Cop
I get what the guy said in the video, but isn't step one of creating a work of art to know your audience?
Sure, we deconstructed Luke. All in one little scene. We tore down an icon and a legend, and all we get is that one scene? Wouldn't it have been better story telling to show us a few flashbacks as Luke tells the story of how he first noticed the dark side growing in Ben? This simultaneously could have built additional character development for both Luke and Kylo. We see hints of anger over several flashbacks, with the main reveal of what that led Luke to do, towards the end of the film, culminating with a scene of the knights of Ren if not just for fan service, but to help establish Kylo Ren as something more than the failure Snoke declares he is? And, are we (the audience) not worthy of some explanation for this new found force using prodigy? I mean, we've even seen "the chosen one" with all his midiclorians require training to develop his skills.
Sure, we deconstructed Luke. All in one little scene. We tore down an icon and a legend, and all we get is that one scene? Wouldn't it have been better story telling to show us a few flashbacks as Luke tells the story of how he first noticed the dark side growing in Ben? This simultaneously could have built additional character development for both Luke and Kylo. We see hints of anger over several flashbacks, with the main reveal of what that led Luke to do, towards the end of the film, culminating with a scene of the knights of Ren if not just for fan service, but to help establish Kylo Ren as something more than the failure Snoke declares he is? And, are we (the audience) not worthy of some explanation for this new found force using prodigy? I mean, we've even seen "the chosen one" with all his midiclorians require training to develop his skills.
I don't think I walked out of other Star Wars movies wondering who the hell major characters were or how one side had gained such a lopsided advantage in between movies. We complain about the prequels for the dialogue and CGI fests, but the plots are pretty fleshed out. Right now, we're two movies into the third trilogy and I'm still puzzled about what happened to the Republic/Rebel Alliance after RoJ and how the First Order went from a remnant to appearing to have many of the resources of the old empire.Quote:
but if that's the case, how can you feel any different for any of the other StarWars movies? 'Cus they're pretty much all like that...
And that's forgetting some of the pointless twists and interludes like Poe's mutiny and Finn's journey to Casino World to look for someone who could help them gain a 3 minute delay in the light speed tracking. Or how Leia thought they could evacuate the cruiser in undetectable small ships while Snoke was plainly able to watch from a distance. Or why Yoda came back just to screw with Luke and use Ghost Force to cause a storm and destroy the sacred tree....or why we needed to waste time on friction between Rey and the Frog Nuns who did nothing of importance....or how Rey learned to use the lightsaber when everyone else in the universe needed training...on and on and on and on.
He did a decent job of addressing surface level issues.
Everybody has an opinion on Luke. I think a lot of the outrage regarding Luke's character is over the top but his arc in the movie is pretty low on the list of problems.
Expectations vs reality... I mean sure. Part of the reason for these expectations were due to what TFA cultivated and built towards. And he talks about how the movie did the unexpected but throwing a curveball just for the sake of doing it isn't good in its own regard.
He talks about the theme of failure like it has depth but they beat you over the head with it at a superficial level all movie. Not much to read into there.
Everybody has an opinion on Luke. I think a lot of the outrage regarding Luke's character is over the top but his arc in the movie is pretty low on the list of problems.
Expectations vs reality... I mean sure. Part of the reason for these expectations were due to what TFA cultivated and built towards. And he talks about how the movie did the unexpected but throwing a curveball just for the sake of doing it isn't good in its own regard.
He talks about the theme of failure like it has depth but they beat you over the head with it at a superficial level all movie. Not much to read into there.
We were told before it came out that it was a different type of StarWars movie. You should have gone in to it open to anything. It's healthy and organic to have change, and you need to embrace it, otherwise nothing will endure.
The Force Awakens was the movie to give you what you wanted, duh. Now we're past that, so go in with a clear mind and few expectations and you'll find yourself enjoying the new directions. They even gave you Luke Skywalker saving the galaxy once again, and you're upset with Luke Skywalker. GTFOH, turkeys...
The Force Awakens was the movie to give you what you wanted, duh. Now we're past that, so go in with a clear mind and few expectations and you'll find yourself enjoying the new directions. They even gave you Luke Skywalker saving the galaxy once again, and you're upset with Luke Skywalker. GTFOH, turkeys...
A movie of failure should be more dark than this turned out to be. Too many poor attempts at humor, too many new, key characters that I didn't give a **** about, a useless plotline for Finn which made me not give a **** about his character by the end, and a confusing, weird death for Luke.
This is not some disappointed fanboy with high hopes that cant be met viewpoint. They just screwed up some basic storytelling elements.
This is not some disappointed fanboy with high hopes that cant be met viewpoint. They just screwed up some basic storytelling elements.
It's a fantasy franchise that has always been geared towards kids and young adults, y'all just happen to be grown up now.DannyDuberstein said:
A movie of failure should be more dark than this turned out to be.
Rogue One was REALLY dark. Did you enjoy that? Perhaps we'll get more 'adult' StarWars movies in the spin offs. This would be a great way to cater to everyone: StarWars Episodes to get the story to all especially young adults and children, and the spin-off/side movies to be more mature and darker...
This one would have been a ton better with some adjustments. Had potential to be great. Ended up with MAJOR flaws that some are ok with overlooking and others just can't. It's still Star Wars and had it's moments, and overall, I liked it. But I also see how the size of the flaws were too much for some, and it's not just because they are unrealistic fanboys. It's because they were pretty big warts of plot and characters
DannyDuberstein said:
A movie of failure should be more dark than this turned out to be. Too many poor attempts at humor, too many new, key characters that I didn't give a **** about, a useless plotline for Finn which made me not give a **** about his character by the end, and a confusing, weird death for Luke.
This is not some disappointed fanboy with high hopes that cant be met viewpoint. They just screwed up some basic storytelling elements.
There was two to three new characters.
The fact that there are posters in this thread that are offended that haldo dressed down Poe for being an impulsive man also explains a portion of the male audience not liking it
I never felt Star Wars was made for kids. I always thought it was for mature audiences. Empire was dark and when it came out I was 8. It was not my favorite as a kid. ROTJ was my favorite. But as I got older that changed. I think ROTJ was starting to gear towards the children toy market. Star Wars realized what they had and we got Ewoks. Now it's gotten ridilous. These movies just cheapen the Star Wars brand imo.
ApachePilot said:
I never felt Star Wars was made for kids. I always thought it was for mature audiences. Empire was dark and when it came out I was 8. It was not my favorite as a kid. ROTJ was my favorite. But as I got older that changed. I think ROTJ was starting to gear towards the children toy market. Star Wars realized what they had and we got Ewoks. Now it's gotten ridilous. These movies just cheapen the Star Wars brand imo.
Disney is laughing to the bank for every porg sold. Which were great by the way and easily made me like the movie more
Uhhh, that's not the problem. This smarmy-ass loser *****
1) had no rational plan
2) was leading them all to certain death
3) instead of exhibiting leadership or inspiring confidence, she went out of her way at to be snotty condescending and insulting-to her best commander
4) she failed to win even enough confidence in anyone that her whole bridge crew mutineed and tried to save the fleet with their own stupid plan
5) she was such a ***** she lost command if the fleet and had to be bailed out by Mary poppinsiscle
6) after getting bailed out, she proceeded to watch her whole fleet die. But only after the smarmy, smug, two-faced kiss-ass captain Bligh with a purple wig Went out of her way to lie through her teeth about 'liking' the guy she was just a snotty ***** to - just to kiss Mary poppinsicle's ass.
Basically, she was a complete and total *****y disaster and no wonder the whole galaxy couldn't give a **** about their little club med rebellion.
1) had no rational plan
2) was leading them all to certain death
3) instead of exhibiting leadership or inspiring confidence, she went out of her way at to be snotty condescending and insulting-to her best commander
4) she failed to win even enough confidence in anyone that her whole bridge crew mutineed and tried to save the fleet with their own stupid plan
5) she was such a ***** she lost command if the fleet and had to be bailed out by Mary poppinsiscle
6) after getting bailed out, she proceeded to watch her whole fleet die. But only after the smarmy, smug, two-faced kiss-ass captain Bligh with a purple wig Went out of her way to lie through her teeth about 'liking' the guy she was just a snotty ***** to - just to kiss Mary poppinsicle's ass.
Basically, she was a complete and total *****y disaster and no wonder the whole galaxy couldn't give a **** about their little club med rebellion.
Farmer1906 said:DannyDuberstein said:
A movie of failure should be more dark than this turned out to be. Too many poor attempts at humor, too many new, key characters that I didn't give a **** about, a useless plotline for Finn which made me not give a **** about his character by the end, and a confusing, weird death for Luke.
This is not some disappointed fanboy with high hopes that cant be met viewpoint. They just screwed up some basic storytelling elements.
There was two to three new characters.
And they were very significant and suuuucked. Especially Rose. Her involvement was so bad that it took a good new trilogy character backward with her. TFA and Rogue One both did a good job of introducing new characters. TLJ swung and not only missed, they accidentally smacked some introduced earlier across fhe temple.
Thanks for proving my point with the immature and sexist use of language champcbr said:
Uhhh, that's not the problem. This smarmy-ass loser *****
1) had no rational plan
2) was leading them all to certain death
3) instead of exhibiting leadership or inspiring confidence, she went out of her way at to be snotty condescending and insulting-to her best commander
4) she failed to win even enough confidence in anyone that her whole bridge crew mutineed and tried to save the fleet with their own stupid plan
5) she was such a ***** she lost command if the fleet and had to be bailed out by Mary poppinsiscle
6) after getting bailed out, she proceeded to watch her whole fleet die. But only after the smarmy, smug, two-faced kiss-ass captain Bligh with a purple wig Went out of her way to lie through her teeth about 'liking' the guy she was just a snotty ***** to - just to kiss Mary poppinsicle's ass.
Basically, she was a complete and total *****y disaster and no wonder the whole galaxy couldn't give a **** about their little club med rebellion.
And i agree there could have been better ways to handle it, absolutely. However there have been folks who literally have called this SJW women empowerment and had their feelings hurt granny haldo put poe in his place
I think it's interesting how new key characters are critical to success or failure, and the perception of each film tends to flow with them.
ANH - greatness. Needs no elaboration
ESB - great job of developing ANH characters further. Yoda great (risky but worked). Lando great
ROTJ - thought Jabba and the emporer were great. Ewoks sucked
TPM- good grief. What a disaster from JarJar to young Anakin to the trade federation dorks. a great actress is stuck with a turd character in Padme
AOC - more suckitide with a 2nd whiff on Anakin, boring ass Dooku, etc
ROTS - mostly stopped the bleeding of the 1st 2 prequels but still stuck with some crap
TFA - great with Rey, Poe, BB8. Solid with Finn. Kylo a bit shaky due to emo factor. Snoke ok
TLJ - Rose awful. Holdo bad. Finn regressed. One positive was that Kylo strengthed by losing most of his emo factor
Rogue One - very well done across the board. Saw may have been the weakest link, but not that bad
ANH - greatness. Needs no elaboration
ESB - great job of developing ANH characters further. Yoda great (risky but worked). Lando great
ROTJ - thought Jabba and the emporer were great. Ewoks sucked
TPM- good grief. What a disaster from JarJar to young Anakin to the trade federation dorks. a great actress is stuck with a turd character in Padme
AOC - more suckitide with a 2nd whiff on Anakin, boring ass Dooku, etc
ROTS - mostly stopped the bleeding of the 1st 2 prequels but still stuck with some crap
TFA - great with Rey, Poe, BB8. Solid with Finn. Kylo a bit shaky due to emo factor. Snoke ok
TLJ - Rose awful. Holdo bad. Finn regressed. One positive was that Kylo strengthed by losing most of his emo factor
Rogue One - very well done across the board. Saw may have been the weakest link, but not that bad
Awww. Triggered. Guess what? Leia in the original movies was a great character. Rey in fta was a great character.
Plenty of great female leaders.
However, This movie SHOULD piss off feminists, because the female 'leaders' were total and complete loser *****es.
Instead, people like you got so excited that this worthless ***** got to talk nasty and condescendingly to a man, that you missed all that.
Did you miss the part that even multiple women were in on the mutiny?
Or that this dumbass character left the entire rebellion dead and the entire fleet destroyed, except for a couple of dozen people on a transport scow limping towards certain death themselves?
Another joke you missed is the movie ended with the '*****ed out guy' IN CHARGE, lol.
Plenty of great female leaders.
However, This movie SHOULD piss off feminists, because the female 'leaders' were total and complete loser *****es.
Instead, people like you got so excited that this worthless ***** got to talk nasty and condescendingly to a man, that you missed all that.
Did you miss the part that even multiple women were in on the mutiny?
Or that this dumbass character left the entire rebellion dead and the entire fleet destroyed, except for a couple of dozen people on a transport scow limping towards certain death themselves?
Another joke you missed is the movie ended with the '*****ed out guy' IN CHARGE, lol.
Saxsoon said:Thanks for proving my point with the immature and sexist use of language champcbr said:
Uhhh, that's not the problem. This smarmy-ass loser *****
1) had no rational plan
2) was leading them all to certain death
3) instead of exhibiting leadership or inspiring confidence, she went out of her way at to be snotty condescending and insulting-to her best commander
4) she failed to win even enough confidence in anyone that her whole bridge crew mutineed and tried to save the fleet with their own stupid plan
5) she was such a ***** she lost command if the fleet and had to be bailed out by Mary poppinsiscle
6) after getting bailed out, she proceeded to watch her whole fleet die. But only after the smarmy, smug, two-faced kiss-ass captain Bligh with a purple wig Went out of her way to lie through her teeth about 'liking' the guy she was just a snotty ***** to - just to kiss Mary poppinsicle's ass.
Basically, she was a complete and total *****y disaster and no wonder the whole galaxy couldn't give a **** about their little club med rebellion.
And i agree there could have been better ways to handle it, absolutely. However there have been folks who literally have called this SJW women empowerment and had their feelings hurt granny haldo put poe in his place
The point you're missing is all these "lessons" may make a decent tv episode, but instead it made a boring moving that dragged. I'll add that Haldo just seemed off; her character was not convincing and took me out of the whole experience until the kamikaze.
Or the number of posts saying that Rose would be a better character if the actress was more attractive to them.Saxsoon said:
The fact that there are posters in this thread that are offended that haldo dressed down Poe for being an impulsive man also explains a portion of the male audience not liking it
My 9yo son thought the movie was, "great". He enjoyed his plush porg christmas gift, probably as much as I (way back when) enjoyed my ewok teddy bear...Saxsoon said:ApachePilot said:
I never felt Star Wars was made for kids. I always thought it was for mature audiences. Empire was dark and when it came out I was 8. It was not my favorite as a kid. ROTJ was my favorite. But as I got older that changed. I think ROTJ was starting to gear towards the children toy market. Star Wars realized what they had and we got Ewoks. Now it's gotten ridilous. These movies just cheapen the Star Wars brand imo.
Disney is laughing to the bank for every porg sold. Which were great by the way and easily made me like the movie more
Edit: Apache, it seems as if you really enjoyed RotJ as a kid, but later that changed. So as a kid/young adult you liked ANH, and RotJ, but not ESB, as you got older you began to appreciate ESB and started to not like RotJ as much.
It's almost as if you understand what's happening is exactly what has already happened, but you don't want to accept any of it, and now you're disappointed with the whole process... Let me help you out here, you and people like you (and me), have always enjoyed StarWars, but tastes change, and you like certain things more and less over time. It's the same exact same crap as always (only different and new)! So either enjoy it for what it is, or don't... you never know, maybe your tastes will change over time. Do you get it now? I hope so...
DannyDuberstein said:
That video may explain the dislike for some, but my problems wjth the film are the "MAJOR ISSUES" that he acknowledges it has. Plot issues, pacing, red herrings, some bad short-shrifted characters. I think it's kind of silly to say "this movie has all
sorts of major, fundamental problems but your reasons for not liking it are just because you are a sentimental codger that cant he pleased. ".
Yeah, stopped wasting my time watching that video when he acknowledged the film had all of those major issues but said it was still a good film and I didn't like it basically because I was too much of a Star Wars fanboy.
Saxsoon said:
The fact that there are posters in this thread that are offended that haldo dressed down Poe for being an impulsive man also explains a portion of the male audience not liking it
No, that's just your own politics and bias projecting.
aggiephoenix02 said:It's a fantasy franchise that has always been geared towards kids and young adults, y'all just happen to be grown up now.DannyDuberstein said:
A movie of failure should be more dark than this turned out to be.
Rogue One was REALLY dark. Did you enjoy that? Perhaps we'll get more 'adult' StarWars movies in the spin offs. This would be a great way to cater to everyone: StarWars Episodes to get the story to all especially young adults and children, and the spin-off/side movies to be more mature and darker...
Actually, yeah, I do like Rogue One, in fact I think its the best out the three new movies. And I say that knowing that my 8 yar old son liked it the least. But the reason I disliked TLJ had nothing to do with "light" or "dark" tones.
It simply had too many storytelling flaws. I honestly didn't mind the stuff that shouldn't make sense in a space movie like "dropping" bombs (well, other than ridiculous Space Leia). As its been stated in prior posts those things have always been present in Star Wars movies. It was the bad plot and ill-placed slapstick humor that turned me off.
This movie will grow on people.
I watched opening night and wasn't a fan. I don't like packed theaters in general, but I was offered a free ticket that was hard to turn down. All of the clapping, laughing, comments, etc over exaggerated the bad parts for me personally. I had many of the same complaints I've seen on here.
Took the family and enjoyed it much more. Appreciate the storyline now. Parts that I thought were over the top didn't seem so bad. But, as others have mentioned, having kids can change your perspective. We're tripping over SW toys after Christmas.
On a side note...I wonder if the OT would have been viewed different if social media was around back then.
I watched opening night and wasn't a fan. I don't like packed theaters in general, but I was offered a free ticket that was hard to turn down. All of the clapping, laughing, comments, etc over exaggerated the bad parts for me personally. I had many of the same complaints I've seen on here.
Took the family and enjoyed it much more. Appreciate the storyline now. Parts that I thought were over the top didn't seem so bad. But, as others have mentioned, having kids can change your perspective. We're tripping over SW toys after Christmas.
On a side note...I wonder if the OT would have been viewed different if social media was around back then.
Finally got to see it.
Rian Johnson should be imprisoned and given the ESB Han Solo torturing he deserves.
I won't repeat the universally loathed parts.
I just cannot believe that Disney was okay with using Super Bowl commercial-level humor for Star Wars.
Liked: Falcon vs. FO. Never fails to deliver.
The OT characters interactions.
"A Quiet Place" trailer
Rian Johnson should be imprisoned and given the ESB Han Solo torturing he deserves.
I won't repeat the universally loathed parts.
I just cannot believe that Disney was okay with using Super Bowl commercial-level humor for Star Wars.
Liked: Falcon vs. FO. Never fails to deliver.
The OT characters interactions.
"A Quiet Place" trailer
Hi, Im Brett said:
On a side note...I wonder if the OT would have been viewed different if social media was around back then.
Maybe, but you can't blame social media for a negative reaction to a really lame contemporary "your mom" joke to start a Star Wars movie.
cbr said:
Awww. Triggered. Guess what? Leia in the original movies was a great character. Rey in fta was a great character.
Plenty of great female leaders.
However, This movie SHOULD piss off feminists, because the female 'leaders' were total and complete loser *****es.
Instead, people like you got so excited that this worthless ***** got to talk nasty and condescendingly to a man, that you missed all that.
Did you miss the part that even multiple women were in on the mutiny?
Or that this dumbass character left the entire rebellion dead and the entire fleet destroyed, except for a couple of dozen people on a transport scow limping towards certain death themselves?
Another joke you missed is the movie ended with the '*****ed out guy' IN CHARGE, lol.
There is someone triggered here and it ain't me champ
What the hell does having women in on the mutiny have anything to do with anything?
Seriously what's the matter with you. Did your daddy never whoop you for talking about women like that?
I did notice that Poe was in charge at the end, but he needed to learn an important lesson in leadership, from 2 women. Oh and they looked to Leia first.
And no I don't get my jollies off of it. In fact like you it was a little off putting at first. But then I Realized my own masculinity isn't threatened one bit by this movie
aggiephoenix02 said:That's not a bad point, but if that's the case, how can you feel any different for any of the other StarWars movies? 'Cus they're pretty much all like that...DannyDuberstein said:
That video may explain the dislike for some, but my problems wjth the film are the "MAJOR ISSUES" that he acknowledges it has. Plot issues, pacing, red herrings, some bad short-shrifted characters. I think it's kind of silly to say "this movie has major problems but your reasons for not liking it suck".
Yep....that's my main gripe with the critics of this one....
you can tear apart SW(ANH) and ROTJ in particular if you want to and plenty of people did back then too...they've just been drowned out by the overwhelming number who just remember them nostalgically and ignore all the major issues. Same goes for TFA but the nostalgia was laid on so thick some people overlook all the issues there too. And others lamented that it was a retread and longed for something new and different.
Here everything we know is changed but it did not meet people's expectations if they were too high or they wanted specific things delved into that were not.
Blah blah blah....I know I had a great time, it was fun, I loved watching it and even more so the second time. I like some of the changes and unexpected things. And yes there are issues but like the other films I'm able to look past them.
ALL OF SW is FLAWED.
FL_Ag1998 said:Saxsoon said:
The fact that there are posters in this thread that are offended that haldo dressed down Poe for being an impulsive man also explains a portion of the male audience not liking it
No, that's just your own politics and bias projecting.
I don't want to derail the thread further but it's cute that you think I voted for Hillary of any liberal for that matter. I just respect the women in my life the way I was taught
Btw type last Jedi sjw into YouTube and see the response rate you get (hint I got back more than a few). That's not force projecting like Luke, there are lot of fragile male egos out there terrified that their sacred cow has been feminized.
1 said:
Finally got to see it.
Rian Johnson should be imprisoned and given the ESB Han Solo torturing he deserves.
I won't repeat the universally loathed parts.
I just cannot believe that Disney was okay with using Super Bowl commercial-level humor for Star Wars.
Liked: Falcon vs. FO. Never fails to deliver.
The OT characters interactions.
"A Quiet Place" trailer
And I went in wanting to like it because of knowing about the RT audience score. "Bunch of no-life fanboys..." I thought.
G Martin 87 said:How can we be sure that's all they were? Luke spent more time explaining who they were to Rey than he did on Lesson 3. Obviously they must be important.Texaggie7nine said:Comic relief.bobinator said:
You know, another thing that annoyed me about this movie (not enough to sway my overall impression, but just didn't care for it) is the stupid caretakers on Achto. Like... what was the point of them?
Well, he does milk space dinosaurs. Are you saying he also diddles these aliens?
My son got a Porg from Santa this year.Saxsoon said:ApachePilot said:
I never felt Star Wars was made for kids. I always thought it was for mature audiences. Empire was dark and when it came out I was 8. It was not my favorite as a kid. ROTJ was my favorite. But as I got older that changed. I think ROTJ was starting to gear towards the children toy market. Star Wars realized what they had and we got Ewoks. Now it's gotten ridilous. These movies just cheapen the Star Wars brand imo.
Disney is laughing to the bank for every porg sold. Which were great by the way and easily made me like the movie more
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
pimplepopper said:My son got a Porg from Santa this year.Saxsoon said:ApachePilot said:
I never felt Star Wars was made for kids. I always thought it was for mature audiences. Empire was dark and when it came out I was 8. It was not my favorite as a kid. ROTJ was my favorite. But as I got older that changed. I think ROTJ was starting to gear towards the children toy market. Star Wars realized what they had and we got Ewoks. Now it's gotten ridilous. These movies just cheapen the Star Wars brand imo.
Disney is laughing to the bank for every porg sold. Which were great by the way and easily made me like the movie more
Is it a plush thing or does it make sound. That may make me give you thoughts and prayers
My son wants the alien dudes in the cantina band. Not having a lot of luck on that one.
Perhaps if she had gotten out of that cocktail dress she was in and put on a military uniform reflecting her rank she might have been much more convincing.Quote:
her character was not convincing
I felt that Holdo was a superfluous character. They could have just used Admiral Ackbar to the same end, and in doing so given a nod to OT fans while also sending out a well-known character in a memorable way ('cause that no-sound hyperspace obliteration of Snoke's massive ship was one of the saga's most awesome moments).
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