*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***

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bangobango
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In reply to Urban Ag • 10:37a, 12/21/17
AG
Urban Ag said:
SeattleAgJr said:
Rey: He just murdered his father in cold blood. He almost killed me and Finn. He has lead a team of mercenaries around the galaxy committing terror and murder, and took part in the physical destruction of several planets.

But I know he can be redeemed!!!!!!!
This.

And this is why I did not like nor think the force chats were needed or necessary. Kylo literally stood by as an accomplice to mass planetary genocide but f it, let's have so slightly sex tensioned teeny force chats and even touch hands until the grumpy old guy catches us. Sigh....................


Uh, guys. Vader says hi?
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Flashdiaz
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In reply to Aggie_Journalist • 10:38a, 12/21/17
AG
Aggie_Journalist said:
The crazy thing is all that bad stuff could have been cut and, with a few changes, you'd have a tighter, sharper story. You could have replaced rose, the casinos, and Del Toro with a Poe + Finn mission to board the Star Destroyer and play guerilla war on the inside, sabotaging things to slow it down. (The empire could have tractor-beamed a smaller cruiser for capture, for example, with Poe, Finn and a rebel strike team on board ready to blast its way out and into the ship's guts followings Finn's guidance. Phasma could have led the attempts to find and stop them.) This would still end with their eventual capture, but it would be Poe and Finn instead of Rose and Finn. Snoke could pull the cloaked ships plan from their minds.

most alternate ideas suck, but I like this one!
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bangobango
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In reply to Ag Since 83 • 10:41a, 12/21/17
AG
Ag Since 83 said:

I've been wondering why Luke's arc doesn't bother me as much as it does many die hard fans, because I completely understand the argument and why some people don't like it. I guess it's because a few years ago, I accepted that in order to make new movies with drama, they were going to have to trample the happy endings at the end of ROTJ. So Han and Leia didn't get their happy ending and split up after Ben turns, and Luke has to have some sort of Force conflict.


See that isn't true. They could've just as easily set this years after Han Leia and Luke passed away and still done pretty much theb same story.

They didn't do that because they wanted to lure in people like me that wanted to see our old heroes. That's what is so infuriating about it. It is a blatant money grab and it is very disrespectful to the core, long time fans.
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to Ulrich • 10:43a, 12/21/17
Ulrich said:
Texaggie7nine said:
twilly said:
Wow, with that kind of brutal statement, I wouldn't count on Luke coming back in any way for Episode IX.
Why? He said disparaging things about the story when he did the first one as well.

He said that he had problems with the script, but that when he saw the finished product he understood and really liked it. This time around the movie is out and he's still trashing it.
Eh not really.

7nine
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DannyDuberstein
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10:46a, 12/21/17
AG
Quote:
I've been wondering why Luke's arc doesn't bother me as much as it does many die hard fans, because I completely understand the argument and why some people don't like it. I guess it's because a few years ago, I accepted that in order to make new movies with drama, they were going to have to trample the happy endings at the end of ROTJ.
Totally fine with a non-happy ending. In fact, if you really want to go this route, then defeating Kylo but adding the bittersweet loss of Luke and maybe even Rey to end the jedi order at the end of IX would have been the way to go IMO. In addition, although Kylo has shown his soft spot for mommy that was probably going to be key to IX in some way, it seemed like a terrible bet to need Carrie Fisher functional and available for all 3 movies.
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TexAgs91
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10:51a, 12/21/17
AG
I didn't like the odd derail to the rich guy world where they shoved the liberal message down our throats of rich is evil. It's like they kept putting gratuitous scenes in there like the lash marks on the animals. It was like "See? This is what happens when people get rich."

Rose seemed like a character the director put in because she was a friend and allowed her to bring in her liberal gripes too.

Part VII felt like Star Wars. Part VIII didn't. The music sounded more like parts 1-3 as did the sound effects which sounded weak, digital and processed rather than like 4-6 which sounded analog, rich and real.

And how is Rey getting so powerful? Are we counting Luke's couple of half hearted "lessons" as being significant? The bit about her parents being nobodies doesn't make sense. I'm hoping it was a lie and that we'll have a better explanation in the next one.
Fight! Fight! Fight!
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tremble
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In reply to amercer • 10:57a, 12/21/17
AG
amercer said:
Except that's not what happened. After Kylo turned Luke decided he needed to know a lot more about the actual history of the Jedi. It was what he found there that convinced him that the whole Jedi thing was a bad idea. It played into what Snoke said as well. The presence of strength on one side demands the rise in power on the other side. So endless conflict.

You might think that's stupid, or the wrong direction, but it's not Luke quitting because Kylo went emo ***** on him. He had regrets about that failure, but it was more than that lead him to disconnect with the force.


Can you read this post without realizing how bat**** insane this all really sounds?

Luke ****ed up, yes. He goes to the original Jedi temple to reconnect, reads the texts and realizes the Republic-era Jedi were wrong on things. Next he decides to TOTALLY cut himself off from the Force?

What the actual ****? Like in what universe is the most powerful force user cutting himself off from the Force not worth more than 30 seconds of explanation?

Why wouldn't Luke return with the newfound knowledge of early Jedi teachings to help people? By exiling himself Luke laid the groundwork for at least 40 billion people in the Republic to die. This dude is enabling mass genocide and he's supposed to be the hero now after projecting a ****ing hologram to save 20 people?
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bobinator
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10:58a, 12/21/17
AG
I wish I could filter out the words "liberal" and "SJW" from this thread
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Ulrich
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In reply to tremble • 11:00a, 12/21/17
Plus I'm pretty sure space Jedi are now canon so he could just superman himself to the nearest inhabited planet.
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DannyDuberstein
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11:02a, 12/21/17
AG
Spending 2 movies developing much more of an attachment and chemistry between Luke and Rey, then to kill Luke off would have been great. Instead their scenes were mostly just awkward. It could also allow you to develop Rey's skills (which no one gets how she's so strong with no training), but in a manner that incorporates and better explains the gray that Luke has learned.

Instead, we're left with 3 main "good guy" characters whose chemistry was not furthered by XIII. In fact, it went backward IMO.
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digital_ag
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In reply to TexAgs91 • 11:02a, 12/21/17
AG
TexAgs91 said:
I didn't like the odd derail to the rich guy world where they shoved the liberal message down our throats of rich is evil. It's like they kept putting gratuitous scenes in there like the lash marks on the animals. It was like "See? This is what happens when people get rich."

I actually thought they were going somewhere with this when, after they escaped, Benicio made the point about how these arms dealers get rich off both sides.

I really felt there was this "break the chain, forget the past" narrative blossoming and that actually made sense to me because it puts the stupid casino world sideplot and Luke's reservations into a unified vision.

But then they just abandoned it...
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bangobango
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In reply to digital_ag • 11:13a, 12/21/17
AG
digital_ag said:
TexAgs91 said:
I didn't like the odd derail to the rich guy world where they shoved the liberal message down our throats of rich is evil. It's like they kept putting gratuitous scenes in there like the lash marks on the animals. It was like "See? This is what happens when people get rich."

I actually thought they were going somewhere with this when, after they escaped, Benicio made the point about how these arms dealers get rich off both sides.

I really felt there was this "break the chain, forget the past" narrative blossoming and that actually made sense to me because it puts the stupid casino world sideplot and Luke's reservations into a unified vision.

But then they just abandoned it...
That's part of the problem with this trilogy, is they don't know what they want to do.

Do they want it to be nostalgic or do they want to launch new characters?

Do they want to get into the gray side of everything, or do they want it to be a straight good versus evil battle?

That's the biggest problem with this film. It kept hinting at one or the other, but it wouldn't commit to either, an the overall feeling after that is just "that's it?"

You want to talk about how the light side and the darkside are two sides of the same coin? Great, let's do it. "Break the wheel" so to speak.

You want to bring back these old characters and have them take up a lot of the marketing and screen time? Great, let's do it.

But don't half-assed do both. Don't talk about how light and dark are all the force, but then not show us how that changes things. Don't act like your going to burn it all down and start from scratch and then show the jedi texts stowed away at the end of the movie. Don't talk about how these people are getting rich off selling arms to the rebels and the first order, but then not have that actually go anywhere. Don't bring back iconic characters and then not have them actually do anything iconic.
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agracer
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In reply to The Collective • 11:19a, 12/21/17
AG
CJS4715 said:
Obi Wan is protecting Luke. He knows that he can't stop Vader. He is doing what the galaxy requires of him by staying on Tatooine.
Obi Wan thought Vader was dead. He may not have know about him living until much later. And also above
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TCTTS
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In reply to TCTTS • 11:22a, 12/21/17
AG
Ha, scratch that. Looks like this is (of course) all George Lucas' fault...

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M.C. Swag
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In reply to agracer • 11:24a, 12/21/17
AG
agracer said:
CJS4715 said:
Obi Wan is protecting Luke. He knows that he can't stop Vader. He is doing what the galaxy requires of him by staying on Tatooine.
Obi Wan thought Vader was dead. He may not have know about him living until much later. And also above
We don't precisely know WHEN Obi Wan discovered Vader lived, but It'd be safe to assume it didn't take long considering Vader's widespread deployment as the Empire's terror force around the galaxy.
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agracer
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In reply to Flashdiaz • 11:33a, 12/21/17
AG
Flashdiaz said:
Aggie_Journalist said:
The crazy thing is all that bad stuff could have been cut and, with a few changes, you'd have a tighter, sharper story. You could have replaced rose, the casinos, and Del Toro with a Poe + Finn mission to board the Star Destroyer and play guerilla war on the inside, sabotaging things to slow it down. (The empire could have tractor-beamed a smaller cruiser for capture, for example, with Poe, Finn and a rebel strike team on board ready to blast its way out and into the ship's guts followings Finn's guidance. Phasma could have led the attempts to find and stop them.) This would still end with their eventual capture, but it would be Poe and Finn instead of Rose and Finn. Snoke could pull the cloaked ships plan from their minds.

most alternate ideas suck, but I like this one!
yeah me too...that's why I said the same thing on page 20-something....
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jackie childs
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 11:38a, 12/21/17
DannyDuberstein said:
Spending 2 movies developing much more of an attachment and chemistry between Luke and Rey, then to kill Luke off would have been great. Instead their scenes were mostly just awkward. It could also allow you to develop Rey's skills (which no one gets how she's so strong with no training), but in a manner that incorporates and better explains the gray that Luke has learned.

Instead, we're left with 3 main "good guy" characters whose chemistry was not furthered by XIII. In fact, it went backward IMO.
what if that's intentional?

maybe this isn't really a story of Rey's or Finn's journey. what if it's really about Ben's?

Lucas and, more recently, Kennedy have said publicly that the Star Wars saga is about the Skywalker family. obviously Rey could still be revealed to be a Skywalker, but what if Rey's part in all this is to just to teach Ben about the "gray"?

think about it, we've seen more development and backstory of Ben than the other characters combined (though I'd still like more). If you look at Anakin in the prequels and Luke in the original trilogy, doesn't Ben fit that mold better than Rey thus far?
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TCTTS
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In reply to TCTTS • 11:41a, 12/21/17
AG
Once again, The Art of book - this one for TLJ - makes me long for a Star Wars movie that never was. These images, taken from Lucas' original concept pitch of Luke in hiding and training Rey/Kira, show a much cooler/more atmospheric island than we actually got...





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bobinator
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In reply to jackie childs • 11:44a, 12/21/17
AG
Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is definitely the most interesting character so far, but we've dedicated a SIGNIFICANT amount of screen time to Rey. I think we can definitely conclude that this trilogy is about both of them, even if the originals and the prequels were only really about the journey of one character.

In fact, I think there's a better argument that Rey is this series' main character than there is that it's Kylo, but it's fairly obviously both of them.
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bobinator
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In reply to TCTTS • 11:51a, 12/21/17
AG
You know, another thing that annoyed me about this movie (not enough to sway my overall impression, but just didn't care for it) is the stupid caretakers on Achto. Like... what was the point of them?
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to bobinator • 11:56a, 12/21/17
bobinator said:
You know, another thing that annoyed me about this movie (not enough to sway my overall impression, but just didn't care for it) is the stupid caretakers on Achto. Like... what was the point of them?
Comic relief.
7nine
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vwbug
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In reply to bangobango • 11:58a, 12/21/17
bangobango said:

You want to talk about how the light side and the darkside are two sides of the same coin? Great, let's do it. "Break the wheel" so to speak.

You want to bring back these old characters and have them take up a lot of the marketing and screen time? Great, let's do it.

But don't half-assed do both. Don't talk about how light and dark are all the force, but then not show us how that changes things. Don't act like your going to burn it all down and start from scratch and then show the jedi texts stowed away at the end of the movie. Don't talk about how these people are getting rich off selling arms to the rebels and the first order, but then not have that actually go anywhere. Don't bring back iconic characters and then not have them actually do anything iconic.
Completely agree, main problem with 8.
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bobinator
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In reply to Texaggie7nine • 11:59a, 12/21/17
AG
To me not only did the porgs do fine as comic relief on their own, but it sort of took away from the "Luke is isolated" thing for me. That's clearly a full on intelligent species he's hanging around.
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G Martin 87
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In reply to Texaggie7nine • 12:17p, 12/21/17
AG
Texaggie7nine said:
bobinator said:
You know, another thing that annoyed me about this movie (not enough to sway my overall impression, but just didn't care for it) is the stupid caretakers on Achto. Like... what was the point of them?
Comic relief.
How can we be sure that's all they were? Luke spent more time explaining who they were to Rey than he did on Lesson 3. Obviously they must be important.
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Ulrich
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In reply to bobinator • 12:36p, 12/21/17
bobinator said:
To me not only did the porgs do fine as comic relief on their own, but it sort of took away from the "Luke is isolated" thing for me. That's clearly a full on intelligent species he's hanging around.

...Chewie killed and probably ate some of them.
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bobinator
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12:39p, 12/21/17
AG
Chewie eating native species is probably the domino that started the entire series.
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Ulrich
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In reply to bobinator • 12:42p, 12/21/17
bobinator said:
Chewie eating native species is probably the domino that started the entire series.

Always thinking with his stomach.
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Flashdiaz
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12:43p, 12/21/17
AG
for Episode IX, I kind of hope Kylo goes to Vader's castle and puts on the Vader suit. Then gets beaten easily by Rey just so I can come here and witness the ensuing meltdown.
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letters at random
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12:44p, 12/21/17
I don't think Luke was giving up. After things failed with Ben, he thought that the Jedi were a menace to the universe and that, as bad as things would be if he did nothing, they would be worse if he used his power. That's importantly different than hiding out or giving up, despite what Hamill said.

I think the way things ended with Luke was fantastic.
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bobinator
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In reply to letters at random • 12:46p, 12/21/17
AG
Yeah, but then he just changes his mind after hanging with Rey for a couple of days? Like, he's a Jedi Master and came to the conclusion that he should do nothing despite whatever awful things might happen (which included several entire planets getting blasted into oblivion btw) but some girl he doesn't know is able to change his mind with a few quick flashes of her power?
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letters at random
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In reply to bobinator • 12:53p, 12/21/17
bobinator said:
Yeah, but then he just changes his mind after hanging with Rey for a couple of days? Like, he's a Jedi Master and came to the conclusion that he should do nothing despite whatever awful things might happen (which included several entire planets getting blasted into oblivion btw) but some girl he doesn't know is able to change his mind with a few quick flashes of her power?
Sure. It made him remember what it was like to believe that the Jedi way was a way for good. The visit from Yoda probably didn't hurt.

Star Wars is largely about the tension related to use of power. Jedi are presented as pacifists, then warriors, then pacifists again. Been like that since the beginning. Luke won by not fighting Vader.
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InnerCityAg
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In reply to Cromagnum • 12:54p, 12/21/17
Cromagnum said:
Just finished watching ROTJ at home as it was on TV. Considerably better than TLJ.

ESB
ANH
TFA
RotJ
RO
RoftS
TLJ
AotC
TPM


Reverse the last 2 and that is my ranking.
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letters at random
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 12:55p, 12/21/17
Philip J Fry said:
letters at random said:

I'm a conservative guy, but the casino thing didn't bother me at all. That was an essential part of the movie.


How in the hell was that essential for the movie?
Think of the last scene, and how that is connected to Luke. In this movie, the use of force is justified in the defense of the oppressed. The oppressed are represents by the slave kids in the stables serving the rich and powerful casino patrons. The kid at the end is the spark of the new resistance, spurred on by stories of Luke, and force pulls the broom.
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letters at random
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In reply to InnerCityAg • 12:58p, 12/21/17
ESB
ANH
TFA
TLJ
RotJ
RO
RoftS
AotC
TPM
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Ulrich
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In reply to bobinator • 1:04p, 12/21/17
bobinator said:
Yeah, but then he just changes his mind after hanging with Rey for a couple of days? Like, he's a Jedi Master and came to the conclusion that he should do nothing despite whatever awful things might happen (which included several entire planets getting blasted into oblivion btw) but some girl he doesn't know is able to change his mind with a few quick flashes of her power?

To be fair, everything comes super easy for Mary Sue Rey. With a grand total of 15 seconds of instruction from Maz she defeats a powerful Sith Lord; 7 more minutes from Luke and she's mowing down elite commandos and lifting dozens of boulders at once.
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