*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***

356,826 Views | 3129 Replies | Last: 7 mo ago by Definitely Not A Cop
Ags4DaWin
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TCTTS said:

For the record, Abrams absolutely loved Johnson's script, to the point where he was jealous he wasn't directing it. I've seen it mentioned a few times now here that the two clearly weren't on the same page or that Abrams must have hated what Johnson did to certain threads, but that's just not the case. I'm not taking a side here, just stating the facts.


Interesting point. I would love to read a statement to that effect. Can u provide a link?

Because my problem with the movie is not that it tears down a lot of the Star Wars tropes, it's that TFA built up tropes and hinted at backstory, and then TLJ rolled around and it was as though Rian Johnson had watched TFA while texting and being half drunk, missed every important element of foreshadowing and then came out of the viewing and said "**** it! I am going to make my own Star Wars movie!"

It's not that Rey is no one. It's not that Luke dies. It's the hows and the why's that suck. There is no why. Nothing that was shown to be important in the first movie is actually important at all.
mazag08
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Saw it. Overall I like the macro story. But this movies was just way too much packed into a singular plot in time. Way too many references trying to be funny that just didn't fit in the Star Wars universe. Flying Leia was prequel cringe worthy. And the casino planet subplot was as cringe worthy as jar jar.

In other words, the story was great, but you could have told it in half the time and had a cleaner, simpler, more down to earth movie.

Lastly, the way smoke was defeated was awesome.. it just would have been nice that we knew even a little bit about him before that. Regardless, it's obvious that the big difference between the originals and these is that Kylo is absolutely the darkest force in the galaxy and the main villain.
bobinator
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Beat40 said:


I like the conversation we're having.

I did leave out Leia, kind of on purpose. I'm not sure she's meant to be the hero in these specific set of movies.

I guess to finish the discussion are we saying something of significance has to be good or ends well? Poe and Rey each did significant things in this movie.

I think the fact that this is the bridge movie from 7 to 9 is very important for this conversation, because our Heroes Poe and Rey are smack dab in the middle of the Hero's journey. This is why I think TLJ has the ability to go up a few levels after Episode 9 comes out. What they do in those movies will make us look back and reassess the things they did.

I just think what Luke does is the ultimate Hero move. He allows the entire remainder of the rebellion to live and "sacrifices" himself. Hell, becomes even more of a legend as we see the kids telling his story.
Problem is Leia is not only an original trilogy character and force sensitive, but she's the leader of the resistance. So she is at least a partial hero.

And no, it doesn't have to end well to have significance, I can see where you're going with Poe helping cause the the bombing of the dreadnaught, but that happens very early in the movie.

It sort of goes back though to what we mean by people "doing stuff." Because Finn is doing stuff, it's just not particularly interesting or well written stuff.

I've said this movie is like a turducken of a bad movie (Finn's story) inside of a mediocre movie (Poe's story) inside of a really pretty good movie (Rey's story.)
TCTTS
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http://ew.com/article/2015/12/23/jj-abrams-star-wars-episode-viii/
BassCowboy33
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bobinator said:

Beat40 said:


I like the conversation we're having.

I did leave out Leia, kind of on purpose. I'm not sure she's meant to be the hero in these specific set of movies.

I guess to finish the discussion are we saying something of significance has to be good or ends well? Poe and Rey each did significant things in this movie.

I think the fact that this is the bridge movie from 7 to 9 is very important for this conversation, because our Heroes Poe and Rey are smack dab in the middle of the Hero's journey. This is why I think TLJ has the ability to go up a few levels after Episode 9 comes out. What they do in those movies will make us look back and reassess the things they did.

I just think what Luke does is the ultimate Hero move. He allows the entire remainder of the rebellion to live and "sacrifices" himself. Hell, becomes even more of a legend as we see the kids telling his story.
Problem is Leia is not only an original trilogy character and force sensitive, but she's the leader of the resistance. So she is at least a partial hero.

And no, it doesn't have to end well to have significance, I can see where you're going with Poe helping cause the the bombing of the dreadnaught, but that happens very early in the movie.

It sort of goes back though to what we mean by people "doing stuff." Because Finn is doing stuff, it's just not particularly interesting or well written stuff.

I've said this movie is like a turducken of a bad movie (Finn's story) inside of a mediocre movie (Poe's story) inside of a really pretty good movie (Rey's story.)


Rey's story pales in comparison to Ren's. Adam Driver is killing that role.
redline248
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So, Finn/Poe/Rose/that blonde chick come up with a plan to go get a coder to sneak them onto the star destroyer and disable the tracking device. They have maybe something like 12 hours to do it before the cruiser runs out of gas? Good thing the casino planet isn't that far away, I guess.

When they ran from the opening battle with the dread naught, did they know they were going to Crait? If so, why did they drop out of light speed so far away? If they weren't going there, why did they drop out of light speed in the middle of nowhere? Did they just get lucky that the planet was close enough, and happened to be an old Rebel base? I mean, they knew the First Order was coming and had enough time to plan a diversion/attack strategy to cover the retreat...but didn't have a plan of where to go? They just thought they'd jump out to the middle of nowhere and then figure out the next step?
BassCowboy33
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redline248 said:

So, Finn/Poe/Rose/that blonde chick come up with a plan to go get a coder to sneak them onto the star destroyer and disable the tracking device. They have maybe something like 12 hours to do it before the cruiser runs out of gas? Good thing the casino planet isn't that far away, I guess.

When they ran from the opening battle with the dread naught, did they know they were going to Crait? If so, why did they drop out of light speed so far away? If they weren't going there, why did they drop out of light speed in the middle of nowhere? Did they just get lucky that the planet was close enough, and happened to be an old Rebel base? I mean, they knew the First Order was coming and had enough time to plan a diversion/attack strategy to cover the retreat...but didn't have a plan of where to go? They just thought they'd jump out to the middle of nowhere and then figure out the next step?


Stop asking questions and enjoy this film's unbridled diversity and opinions on the evils of capitalism!!
redline248
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...but Rose was guarding the escape pods, wouldn't someone have been like..."hey were did Rose go?"

And no one noticed the guy in a coma for the last...however long...woke up and disappeared? Not even a medical droid?

My favorite was after they all watched Luke brush off canon fire Finn's like "we need to help him with one guy."
jokershady
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Haven't had a chance to read through entire thread (made it about half way through) and saw a lot of similar responses. After watching the film Saturday and thinking it over (still plan on seeing it again) I'm liking the movie a little more, for one main reason...

This film sets up the villains in the same way TFA sets up the new heroes. Think about how you felt about General Hux & Kylo Ren after the first film. I know I wasn't sold on them at all and Snoke was a big mystery. They simply didn't have the time needed to devote and develop these characters when they had to introduce Finn, Poe, and Rey, and on top of that work in Han, Leia, and have all of that revolve around Luke. Holy crap that was a lot.

Now this film, we see real quick the strength and influence of Snoke right from the start when he basically calls Kylo a p***y and after that it gets revealed he was influencing Rey and Kylo's communications between each of them. The entire time he was on screen I wanted more of him. He had a much greater presence than Ian McDermit in ROTS and way better dialogue than ROTJ.

And we get much more of Hux and Kylo in this film, and it left me loving their characters much more. The initial conflict with Kylo and then the scene in Snoke's throne room was one of the highlights of the film. But even afterwards his showdown with Luke and hatred towards him was very believable and much better than what was done in TFA. Hux grew on me too in this one. Loved seeing the conflict between him and Kylo (remembered how he was reaching for his pistol to shoot Kylo right before he regained consciousness after the fight with Rey).

While I'm not saying this film is flawless (believe me, floating Leia was terrible), I think it takes on a different vibe when you realize this was about giving the villains more time to show their growth.

I also have something to add regarding Luke and a lot of people wanting to see him go crazy on the First Order and Kylo. I still thought he felt guilty about creating Kylo in the first place. Remember how he told the final story to Rey, that he only thought about killing Ben for a brief moment, then realized it was a mistake...except Ben woke up at the wrong moment seeing the saber on and the rest was history.

I think because of that he realized he was better help to the Resistance to provide them a means to escape and then be a voice of guidance to Rey to help HER destroy Kylo much in the same way Obi-wan helped Luke destroy the first Death Star and with training and guidance afterwards.
Yoda
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FTACO97 said:

Yoda said:

Here are the things I am having trouble getting over (most have been said by many others):
  • Finn trying to bail again to start the movie. Really? I'm supposed to care about this guy, right?
  • As pretty much everyone else has said, the entire Rose & Finn subplot. Served zero purpose. I can't think of a single thing their actions did that mattered. Forgivable if entertaining, but their high jinx were the weakest parts of the film by far.
  • Benicio's codebreaker character. Just plain annoying. His verbal-tick shtick got old fast. Was he the person they were actually sent to find, despite not having the flower on his lapel? If so, they did a terrible job of making it clear. If not, well, that is even worse.
  • The casino planet. Everything about it was bad. CGI everywhere. Goofy attempts at animated alien humor falling flat (felt like the worst of The Special Editions). The "race horses" with Finn & Rose riding off... to where? Why?
  • Laura Dern, here's an idea. Just tell Poe and the others what you are planning. But hey, who doesn't love a condescending leader who expects everyone to just shut up and trust you despite all evidence saying otherwise.
  • Snoke. I actually liked how they offed him. Unique and gutsy. Just would have been nice to know anything about him. Who he was? How did he gain power? Why did he look like that? Why did the galaxy follow him? Was it fear? Security? Other?

Most unforgivable is Luke. I am a child of the 80's. I get that this new trilogy is about the next generation and not our original heroes. No problem. Yet, didn't we all want to see Luke come through for us one more time? To be the badass the galaxy needed, and our new heroes needed, at their most desperate hour? I understand the way the film played out, he was indeed that... from a certain point of view. I don't love the mass Jedi mindtrick idea, but I think with time I can warm up to it. There's something very disconnected about the whole concept. I wanted flesh and blood Luke to be part of the struggle, but ok. It's the death that I can't get over. Why? He's just tired? Had nothing left to give? Runs in the family (Padme)? A cross-galaxy giant mindtrick like none other drains all lifeforce? I just thought he deserved better. Frankly, we the fans deserved better. If it wasn't going to be in a blaze of glory, shouldn't he of at least been surrounded by friends? How about just one? Alone, disconnected from those he loved and had been separated from for so long, it's just not how we wanted him to go out.

I don't get it....this certainly has turned out to be an extremely polarizing film.

"Finn trying to bail again..." - No. He clearly stated that he could see this was a situation that was likely leading to complete failure and if Rey were to follow the signal back to them, she'd lose as well. His motivation was to get the signal away from there so Rey would be safe if she came back.

"Rose & Finn subplot. Served zero purpose" - I see this complaint everywhere. There was a plan that they concocted with Poe and there was a purpose for them going there. They need to get aboard the lead Star Destroyer and destroy the hyperspace tracker. Can't get aboard without being detected. "Codebreaker" can do it, according to Maz. So Poe, Finn and Rose decide to keep it a secret (poor choice) and Finn & Rose set out to find this guy. The plan ultimately fails and I think the purpose was to show Poe was being reckless and needed to work with his leadership.

"The "race horses" with Finn & Rose riding off... to where? Why?" - Where and why? I thought that was pretty clear. They had decided their mission was a failure and had to get back to their ship and get back to the fleet. They headed for the beach to their ship and it was blown up. Then "Codebreaker" shows up and saves them.

"Most unforgivable is Luke.." - After some further thought, I think the reason he chose to do the force apparition across the galaxy either was because he didn't think he had the time to make it there in person, or maybe he felt he wasn't physically able to stand up against Kylo in person. He had been a hermit now for quite a while, had closed himself off to the force and certainly wasn't keeping himself in fighting condition. His apparition looked younger, had the blue lightsaber that drove Kylo crazy, and wore Jedi robes. I think he purposefully chose to look that way. As for his becoming one with the force at the end? Likely that the feat of the cross-galaxy apparition took too much out of him....or something else...he clearly looked out at those twin suns and saw something...peace came across his face...a smile...and then he chose to go, at least it felt that way to me.
I heard Finn's rationale for why he was leaving. I just didn't like it. Devotion to a friend is admirable, but if I am going to pull for this character I want him to also be devoted to the greater cause. Not to mention, isn't Poe supposed to be his friend too? He's abandoning everyone else with the Resistance, just because he thinks it's best for Rey? What would she have said to him given his circumstance? While it is a defensible choice for the character, it just wasn't one that made me like him more.

I think most people understand the reason Rose and Finn were sent off to get the code breaker. Problem is that nothing of substance came from any of that sequence, and it was generally the least entertaining section of the film, IMO. Regarding their fleeing on the "horses", I worded my thoughts poorly. I understood why they were leaving, it's just that as the audience member I was bored with the entire section and wondering why Rian thought it was exciting enough to turn into a giant chase sequence. The CGI was awkward, and it just dragged.

I'm coming around a bit on Luke's ending. While there's something artificial I don't love about the whole concept, it does make sense the way you lay it out. I'm just having trouble getting over why he died, as it feels so ambiguous. To have something so disconnected as a force apparition ultimately result in his physical death was both confusing and unsatisfying as my pure gut reaction. It certainly doesn't help that Luke was always my favorite character from the OT, so anything less then the perfect exit was going to bother me.
3rdGen2015
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Honest question, how would you have done Luke's death? Because him peacefully becoming one with the Force while the Binary Sunset theme plays is exactly how I would have done it.
Ulrich
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3rdGen2015 said:

Honest question, how would you have done Luke's death? Because him peacefully becoming one with the Force while the Binary Sunset theme plays is exactly how I would have done it.

For me it wasn't about the literal depiction of death as it was that this apparently fit Jedi master in his 60s just sort of rolled over and died for no reason.
amercer
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I'm not sure how fit he was. Didn't look like he was training much, and that diet couldn't have been super healthy
Ulrich
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amercer said:

I'm not sure how fit he was. Didn't look like he was training much, and that diet couldn't have been super healthy

Well, he got to the top of that island on foot. I would have faded to nothing about halfway up.
nickstro66
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In y'alls opinion, is Rose a worse character than Jar Jar?
Ulrich
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nickstro66 said:

In y'alls opinion, is Rose a worse character than Jar Jar?

She's only pointless, not aggressively obnoxious.
Ulrich
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nickstro66 said:

In y'alls opinion, is Rose a worse character than Jar Jar?

... although she does have the most prequel-worthy moment.

We don't fight against what we hate, we fight for the ones we love. *kiss* *faint*

*audience gags*
DannyDuberstein
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JarJar has his own wing in the worst hollywood character hall of fame. He'll never be topped. But I think Rose is firmly 2nd worst.
redline248
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Movie would have been so much better with Finn and Poe off on some gambit together. And not a secret "only we can save the resistance" mission.
Bruce Almighty
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Super-Man force Leia is worse than Jar Jar.
PatAg
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TCTTS said:

For the record, Abrams absolutely loved Johnson's script, to the point where he was jealous he wasn't directing it. I've seen it mentioned a few times now here that the two clearly weren't on the same page or that Abrams must have hated what Johnson did to certain threads, but that's just not the case. I'm not taking a side here, just stating the facts.
Loving the script and it not being a cohesive story are not mutually exclusive things. He was also still attached to the project, just not directing it right?
PatAg
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Bruce Almighty said:

Super-Man force Leia is worse than Jar Jar.
I think they made her "float" for too long. Someone mentioned her just being able to hold on, or even stand without moving as everyone gets sucked out (maybe she saves Ackbar, that was a bs death for him).

If they wanted to go all out force crazy, she could have pulled the ship to her with the force.
3rdGen2015
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PatAg said:

TCTTS said:

For the record, Abrams absolutely loved Johnson's script, to the point where he was jealous he wasn't directing it. I've seen it mentioned a few times now here that the two clearly weren't on the same page or that Abrams must have hated what Johnson did to certain threads, but that's just not the case. I'm not taking a side here, just stating the facts.
Loving the script and it not being a cohesive story are not mutually exclusive things. He was also still attached to the project, just not directing it right?

Executive Producer I believe
vwbug
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Rose should have been the code breaker. Would have saved 30 minutes. Liberal Hollywood didn't want to cut all the politics in the canto night scene
Philip J Fry
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How is Rose any different than Finn? They are equally terrible.
DannyDuberstein
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They were both awful in this one, but I thought Finn was ok in TFA. One of my issues with this film is that both Finn and Hux have drifted into slapstick cartoon character territory.
cbr
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Let's see, you have the keys to the most iconic movie franchise in history, and three of the most iconic Hollywood heroes ever --- Luke the magic farmboy, son of the devil, Solo the galaxy's most beloved scoundrel, and Princess Leia, no further introduction needed.

Together they get the death star plans to the ancient hero of old, who gets them to the rebellion, and they blow up the death star (two of them); they turn the devil himself into a good guy, and save the galaxy from the evil galactic empire that was generations, and 3 bad prequels, in the making.

Heroes of the galaxy.

Peace, love and prosperity.

Yay. good start. Ewoks dancing (ok that part sucked).


Now let's see, here is what you come up with for the next installment:

* solo has a kid with leia, they send him to jedi boarding school. Solo ditches leia and goes off drinking with Chuy (I know, it's Chewie, but this is a multi cultural world now) for 20 years. They put on such a binge they can't even find the falcon, which wound up in some junk heap, though apparently anyone else can the minute it fires up.

* leia apparently does.... well, not much, considering her kid is in jedi boarding school, hubby is out honkytonking, and the galaxy goes to **** immediately again under her watch.

* she then apparently has to start a new rebellion, only one that sucks this time and no one cares about, including luke and han. apparently the best second in command she can find is some smarmy purple-haired captain bligh with a strong case ***** envy.

* meanwhile luke ****s up jedi school and makes another darth vader out of his nephew, then decides that he wants to go hide away and die. why? because he doesnt want to create another vader. never mind trying to create another good jedi, to make up for the new vader he just sicked on the galaxy. He's fine with that.

(but he left a map - i guess he's really crying for help? This is the sensitive century we're in after all).

* luke then spends 20 years sucking tit off of jabba's fat niece and doing who knows what with those frog maids on some ugly island by himself.

* r2D2 is just an old pile of junk in the corner now.

* after 60+ years, leia finally finds her jedi powers to become Mary Poppinssickle in space, and then promptly settles in for a nothing burger the rest of the movie. Carrie Fisher's last act as a true american icon is to say 'dont look at me, follow that pilot I just slapped and demoted, and who I just shot with a stun gun during a mutiny he was staging against my two-faced purple haired second in command, who was leading us all to certain death, all for a cause no one gives a **** about.'

* despite everything hanging in the balance, luke and yoda decide to hang out at the campfire: '**** it, let's roast marshmellows on all that jedi crap that we spent a thousand years putting together and let some random teenager go fight the new evil empire we pretty much created, all by herself "

* Luke then, presumably hung over, decides to force himself to death doing nothing to nobody, which gave the last 15 rebels no one cares about an extra three minutes to crawl in a cave and get ready to be slaughtered.

luckily that teenage girl they wouldn't train or help or even give some better shoes figured out how to find and rescue them by lifting rocks on her own, after luke already checked out.




throw in an annoying multi - time turncoat idiot, a couple of 'doll - selling nothings', a new emperor with no name (but a cool new gold smoking jacket - maybe Snokes is actually Hugh Heffner?), yet another death star, yet another walker attack in the snow, and more crappy CGI on an hour long failed sideshow, and wow, is this the best you can do?

I honestly think just about any fan could have come up with a better story line. Killing off Han, Luke, and losing Carrie Fisher like that is really really ****ty.



GIF Reactor
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I have only made it thru about half of this thread, and I'm certainly not a SW junkie, so I apologize if this has been discussed or is obvious.

Once we saw Luke's x-wing beneath the water, I would have liked a scene with him raising it in front of Rey a la Yoda, or even Yoda raising it for Luke and telling him its time to help his Friends once again.

Also, maybe this is a stupid question, but does only the light side have force ghosts? Why can't some of the dark side come back to help Kylo?
tremble
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The more I think about this movie, the less I like it.

I have zero issues with resetting a lot of stuff and focusing on the new chapter. The whole way this movie went about that though feels contemptuous of what came before.

Throwing THE lightsaber over your shoulder? The one we focused on for a good chunk of the prior movies? Simply too much.

I'm also beginning to really dislike Ridley's character the more I think about it. I mean, she's the most powerful force user in the universe, incorruptible, crack pilot, lightsaber expert, etc.

Where are the stakes? Why should I care about her when she's going to ace every test in front of her?
I imagine the next movie she's going to review the Jedi texts and discover the "truth" behind the force despite only having a year and change of learning about the force.

It's like expecting someone to be a crack doctor, attorney, or soldier in less than a year. **** doesn't work that way.
GIF Reactor
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Also, was anyone but me disappointed Kylo smashed his mask? I liked the ominous voice. Damnit, please bring it back now that you killed Snoke.
cbr
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no one wants to think about evil force ghosts. christ, can you imagine your dead mother in law haunting your ass?
ApachePilot
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I'm just glad to know bombs drop in space like they do on earth from a B52. I totally missed that in science class.
DannyDuberstein
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I liked the voice too, but knowing it serves no purpose + they fixed his emo shampoo commercial hair + the scar, I think sans helmet is the right call at this point.
ApachePilot
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Electrical_Ag said:

Also, was anyone but me disappointed Kylo smashed his mask? I liked the ominous voice. Damnit, please bring it back now that you killed Snoke.


I'm hoping he makes a new mask.
ApachePilot
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The gambling planet ruined the movie for me. Star Wars is lost to me. Fun to watch but will never be anything close to the originals.

How GD old is chewy?!
 
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