*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***

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M.C. Swag
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In reply to TCTTS • 3:52p, 12/17/17
AG
TCTTS said:
Did you and I watch the same movie? Literally, the theme of the movie is "where you come from doesn't matter." Meant as a positive sentiment. In other words, a scavenger girl can become a Force-wielding leader of the Resistance without HAVING to be a Skywalker. Like it or not, the OT put a lot of emphasis on Luke being a Skywalker. And as poor and as removed from the action as he was at the onset, he was still part of a legacy and desitined to become great partly because of that legacy. The force seemingly chose him BECAUSE he was a Skywalker, because it was literally in his blood. But TLJ turns that on its head and says, "Nope, anyone can be anything." And Snoke's entire existence and subsequent death is there to underline that point. To literally say, "Things aren't going to go the way you think." To subvert expectations and make it clear that everything we once knew is not reality as we've been led to believe soand
I actually get that. You don't have to re-explain it. And I did like the Skywalker connection in the first 2 trilogies because it was a Skywalker story. Their lineage mattered within the context of that arc.

THIS trilogy is dipping its toe into both waters by having Kylo as a Skywalker and Rey as a nobody. That's also fine. But where I get frustrated is when someone like you lets the movie off the hook for how poorly they developed Rey because 'it fits the theme.' Her lineage is not important...got it. But the fact that a 'scavenger girl can become a force-wielding leader' without so much as learning how to swing a lightsabre is lazy storytelling. Because the universe just makes it so. She didn't have to earn it. Even the OT did a fast forward to explain how Luke trained to became a Jedi Master. He didn't just assume the role like putting on a jacket.

But the whole point of this is about Snoke....I don't agree that his 'entire existence' is to underline that point 'the past doesn't matter.' It's lazy storytelling that the writer used so they didn't actually have to write anything creative. I mean, wouldn't you rather have something to show Snoke's backstory than 30-40 min of Canto Bight? I would. And it wouldn't be to the detriment of the 'theme' that's all about subverting (or destroying) our expectations.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to bangobango • 3:56p, 12/17/17
AG
Quote:
if you want to move away from that, then fine, but do a better job setting it up. If you want to show that nobody is special, nobody is protected by fate or whatever, then don't also have a scene with a central character developing amazing abilities as to yet unseen or unheard of that save her from sure death at the very last minute. That is just sloppy.
DING DING. It was such a cheap move. It's like holding a closed fist to your pets and teasing them with the treat inside. Then you open it to reveal.....nothing. Like, why even bother with the cheap trick? It's just cruel and lazy.
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to SeattleAgJr • 3:57p, 12/17/17
AG
SeattleAgJr said:
Belton Ag said:
Yeah, I don't believe that. If he had decided to have Rey join up with Kylo Ren and betray and kill Leia I'm positive they would have put a stop to it. We already know that Kennedy does influence the films based on the stories about Rogue One and Solo.
the point is that there was no established A..B..C arc set in place . They are making up the **** as they go along.
and this is absolutely apparent from many of the story beats of TLJ.


Yep, read a story in Collider this morning that had a quote from Johnson confirming that he was allowed complete freedom in deciding Rey's parentage BUT he also stated that the next films aren't obligated to stick to that. That leaves me a little concerned...making stuff up as you go is how you end up with Suicide Squad and a Black Adam movie with no Shazam.
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TCTTS
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 4:00p, 12/17/17
AG
We're going to disagree on the Snoke thing, but I'm right there with you and have said multiple times that I can't stand how underdeveloped Rey is and how stupidly easy it is for her to have all the skills she has. You're putting words in my mouth. I can appreciate the theme and sentiment but dislike certain ways they've chosen to exemplify it.
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FL_Ag1998
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4:00p, 12/17/17
AG
Quote:
...I mean, wouldn't you rather have something to show Snoke's backstory than 30-40 min of Canto Bight?...


I sure as hell would. I'm actually curious where Snoke came from, how he came to be. As for Rose and that crap on the gambling planet...sorry, but I couldn't care less, and it actually took away from the rest of the movie.
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Teacher_Ag
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4:02p, 12/17/17
AG
Have to agree with a friend who saw it for the first time last night and said it feels to her more like fanfiction than a true Star Wars movie. That's exactly how I feel about it. If you take the same budget and resources and give it to 10 different director/writer teams and let them each kind of take 7 and 8 wherever they think they should rightly go, I have a feeling the version we've been given in TFA and TLJ would be close to the bottom of the pile for me. Given their choice of where to take the story and what to do with the characters we all love there are a few select moments that are amazing, but the entire package just feels so off, so lackluster. Still struggling because I want to love them and be optimistic about IX but I don't and I can't.
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VanZandt92
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4:05p, 12/17/17
Rotten Tomatoes back down to 56 percent fan rating.
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:05p, 12/17/17
AG
TCTTS said:
We're going to disagree on the Snoke thing, but I'm right there with you and have said multiple times that I can't stand how underdeveloped Rey is and how stupidly easy it is for her to have all the skills she has. You're putting words in my mouth. I can appreciate the theme and sentiment but dislike certain ways they've chosen to exemplify it.


In my opinion, take that time they wasted on Rose (which was supposed to emphasize the common person and how they can rise up) and devote it to developing Rey more (who actually was an average person imbued with the force). It keeps with your theme, is much more impactful, and doesn't venture into prequel-level silliness.
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TCTTS
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In reply to FL_Ag1998 • 4:08p, 12/17/17
AG
All for that. I actually liked the actress' performance of Rose, but the character itself - and that entire plotline - was obviously a huge misfire.
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Ag Since 83
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In reply to FL_Ag1998 • 4:08p, 12/17/17
AG
FL_Ag1998 said:
TCTTS said:
We're going to disagree on the Snoke thing, but I'm right there with you and have said multiple times that I can't stand how underdeveloped Rey is and how stupidly easy it is for her to have all the skills she has. You're putting words in my mouth. I can appreciate the theme and sentiment but dislike certain ways they've chosen to exemplify it.


In my opinion, take that time they wasted on Rose (which was supposed to emphasize the common person and how they can rise up) and devote it to developing Rey more (who actually was an average person imbued with the force). It keeps with your theme, is much more impactful, and doesn't venture into prequel-level silliness.
I'd take 1/3 of the Rose time, do what you said, and then cut the other 2/3 for a decent length movie

At this point I'm assuming Finn's dumb storyline is a result of the lack of planning. Johnson clearly had a story he wanted to tell with Rey and Kylo, but he had a Finn character he had to do something with. I would have not created Rose and then let Finn and Poe go on a mission together, but make it a lot shorter
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Teacher_Ag
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In reply to Ag Since 83 • 4:10p, 12/17/17
AG
Ag Since 83 said:
FL_Ag1998 said:
TCTTS said:
We're going to disagree on the Snoke thing, but I'm right there with you and have said multiple times that I can't stand how underdeveloped Rey is and how stupidly easy it is for her to have all the skills she has. You're putting words in my mouth. I can appreciate the theme and sentiment but dislike certain ways they've chosen to exemplify it.


In my opinion, take that time they wasted on Rose (which was supposed to emphasize the common person and how they can rise up) and devote it to developing Rey more (who actually was an average person imbued with the force). It keeps with your theme, is much more impactful, and doesn't venture into prequel-level silliness.
I would have not created Rose and then let Finn and Poe go on a mission together, but make it a lot shorter
Yes.
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YouBet
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4:13p, 12/17/17
AG
Just got out. I'm probably like most on here. I give it around a 6.5 out of 10. I knew I would be torn on this with the opening "on hold" scene. That was incredibly dumb and GotG. It works there; not here. The humor was clearly borrowed from GotG and felt out of place and forced. I thought the humor in the OT was more natural.

There were some amazing arcs. I really liked Luke's arc in that while he's not a JAG...he's also not a God. Ironically, he sure felt like one at the end.

My wife hated Laura Dern's character. She thought it was too Hunger Games and pointed out all humans in this movie looked like normal humans and then all of a sudden this purple haired chick comes out of nowhere. Should have been Ackbar.

One last thing: there is no way Rey's parents were drug addict nobodies. That was purely Kylo trying to manipulate the situation like any Sith Lord naturally would do. At this point, I'm going back to thinking she is related to Kenobi.
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wesag
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4:13p, 12/17/17
AG
So are the critics in the pocket of the movie makers or are they this out of touch? I feel like they weren't critical at all.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Ag Since 83 • 4:14p, 12/17/17
AG
Spot on. The main problem wasn't Finn/Rose's storyline, necessarily, it was that Finn had absolutely no trajectory going into the movie in the first place, and Johnson was basically saddled with a big question mark as to where to take him.
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wesag
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In reply to YouBet • 4:15p, 12/17/17
AG
Wish I knew what that stuff is that you are abbreviating.
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SeattleAgJr
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4:15p, 12/17/17
It's only the first of many such lessons in a movie that takes time away from the light and dark battles of Rey and Kylo to deliver a stinging referendum on gendered office politics.
...
Speaking about her character's stylish-yet-firm leadership, Dern told Vanity Fair: "[Rian is] saying something that's been a true challenge in feminism. Are we going to lead and be who we are as women in our femininity? Or are we going to dress up in a boy's clothes to do the boy's job? I think we're waking up to what we want feminism to look like."
...
It's clever for Johnson to have put this story on the very likable Poe. (Both Leia and Holdo are careful to reassure audiences that they, too, like the guy.) We expect dismissive sexism from the First Order (how many times do they refer to Rey as "The Girl?"), but to see it from a friendly face is even more instructive. Any female boss in 2017 or American still nursing the hangover of the 2016 presidential election can tell you that even nice guys often have trouble taking orders from women.
...
This messagewomen being largely right, and men being mostly wrongextends to most but not all aspects of The Last Jedi. Rose Tico was certainly right to insist that Finn stay and fight, and right again to save him when attempts to needlessly sacrifice himself. Rey and Leia were right that Luke should join the resistance.
...
But by in large, The Last Jedi's examination of gender politics does fit into this trilogy's message that the true heirs to the power in this universe are not white men like Hux and Kylo but women and people of color. Though The Last Jedi began filming in early 2016in other words, long before a referendum on Donald Trumpvs. Hillary Clinton informed every aspect of American storytellingit's impossible to ignore the parallels on screen here.

The film's progressive ideology is already ticking off some calcified corners of the fandomthe kind of fans who dismissed Ridley's heroic Rey as a too-powerful "Mary Sue" after the last film. But just because some Star Wars lovers are out of reach for the message this movie delivers, there is still hope for a new generation.
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G Martin 87
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In reply to SeattleAgJr • 4:15p, 12/17/17
AG
SeattleAgJr said:
Belton Ag said:
Yeah, I don't believe that. If he had decided to have Rey join up with Kylo Ren and betray and kill Leia I'm positive they would have put a stop to it. We already know that Kennedy does influence the films based on the stories about Rogue One and Solo.
the point is that there was no established A..B..C arc set in place . They are making up the **** as they go along.
and this is absolutely apparent from many of the story beats of TLJ.
Right. Doing unexpected things in a story is a Good Thing when the unexpected fits with the rules and context that have been set up before. But Rian Johnson didn't do that. A lot of these plot points seem to just be "subverting expectations" by introducing changes that really make no sense and don't follow logically from what has come before. He deserves no praise for making changes just for the sake of surprising the audience. There are 8 prior movies in this saga. This one does not fit. And that's a real shame.
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wesag
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:16p, 12/17/17
AG
TCTTS said:
Spot on. The main problem wasn't Finn/Rose's storyline, necessarily, it was that Finn had absolutely no trajectory going into the movie in the first place, and Johnson was basically saddled with a big question mark as to where to take him.


Johnson didn't have the balls to do editing it get a real editor
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YouBet
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In reply to wesag • 4:16p, 12/17/17
AG
wesag said:
Wish I knew what that stuff is that you are abbreviating.
GotG = Guardians of the Galaxy
JAG = Just a Guy
OT = Original Trilogy
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aggiebird02
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In reply to FL_Ag1998 • 4:16p, 12/17/17
FL_Ag1998 said:

Yep, read a story in Collider this morning that had a quote from Johnson confirming that he was allowed complete freedom in deciding Rey's parentage BUT he also stated that the next films aren't obligated to stick to that. That leaves me a little concerned...making stuff up as you go is how you end up with Suicide Squad and a Black Adam movie with no Shazam.
That sucks...
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TCTTS
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In reply to SeattleAgJr • 4:16p, 12/17/17
AG
Is the continual use of bold and italicized font really necessary? We get it.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to wesag • 4:17p, 12/17/17
AG
wesag said:
So are the critics in the pocket of the movie makers or are they this out of touch? I feel like they weren't critical at all.
Yea man, that's what i was wondering. I feel like Disney definitely bought some favorable reviews...it's the only way I can fathom this big of a gap between critics (who seemingly loved it) to audience (who were 'meh' on it at best).
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wesag
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In reply to YouBet • 4:17p, 12/17/17
AG
YouBet said:
wesag said:
Wish I knew what that stuff is that you are abbreviating.
GotG = Guardians of the Galaxy
JAG = Just a Guy
OT = Original Trilogy


Thanks. Had no idea what JAG was.
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Ulrich
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4:18p, 12/17/17
My thing with Snoke is that he's fully actualized and consistent from the moment he hits the screen. The instant you see that giant ominous hologram, you know that he's wholly evil, never going to change, and the supreme power in the universe. There's nowhere for him to go, so I'm not sure why he needs a bunch of backstory that wouldn't add new information. His power in the universe is much larger than his significance to the plot. He's a pretty minor character in the story being told, really just a foil for Kylo. I don't care about his backstory any more than Phasma's or Rebel Pilot #7.

This is a story, not an encyclopedia or history book. If it's not important to the story, leave it in the novels, comic books, guide books, making ofs, etc.

That said, like most I think they've created an inconsistency with Rey's powers that requires explanation. A random 19 year old peasant may have potential, but not the ability to destroy the guy who practically defeated Luke Skywalker in his sleep. The plot is moving based on unearned powers right now, so if that isn't explained in 9 I'll consider that very lazy storytelling.
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Teacher_Ag
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In reply to SeattleAgJr • 4:18p, 12/17/17
AG
And people yesterday were telling some of us that we're just seeing something that isn't there lol. It was painfully obvious and annoying considering what a flop the movie was in general.
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VanZandt92
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 4:19p, 12/17/17
M.C. Swag said:
wesag said:
So are the critics in the pocket of the movie makers or are they this out of touch? I feel like they weren't critical at all.
Yea man, that's what i was wondering. I feel like Disney definitely bought some favorable reviews...it's the only way I can fathom this big of a gap between critics (who seemingly loved it) to audience (who were 'meh' on it at best).


I feel quite let down by the critics. I had heard how great it was and dang
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02skiag
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4:20p, 12/17/17
AG
Just watched and it was very meh for me. There were plenty of great scenes, but overall it felt like there were too many and it got disjointed. I agree with most, the light speed torpedo was awesome. Roses character was lame and cheesy. Laura Dern didn't work for me either.

TFA was fun throughout and I left excited and ready for more. The length and disjointed feeling of this movie made me bored often and just ready for it to end. It was entertaining often but not as a whole. TFA was everything right about a movie going experience. I hope they can bring that feeling back for me with the next one.
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SeattleAgJr
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:21p, 12/17/17
TCTTS said:
Is the continual use of bold and italicized font really necessary? We get it.
have always done it.

I bold/italicize everything I am cutting and pasting from elsewhere, with my own comments in plain text. feel free to ignore.
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VanZandt92
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In reply to Ulrich • 4:21p, 12/17/17
Snoke was there to die.

Oh and right now The Hobbit movies are looking pretty great
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ccaggie05
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In reply to 02skiag • 4:22p, 12/17/17
AG
02skiag said:
Just watched and it was very meh for me. There were plenty of great scenes, but overall it felt like there were too many and it got disjointed. I agree with most, the light speed torpedo was awesome. Roses character was lame and cheesy. Laura Dern didn't work for me either.

TFA was fun throughout and I left excited and ready for more. The length and disjointed feeling of this movie made me bored often and just ready for it to end. It was entertaining often but not as a whole. TFA was everything right about a movie going experience. I hope they can bring that feeling back for me with the next one.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I left TFA excited about this film, and that feeling just isn't there after this one, which is the most disappointing thing for me.
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SeattleAgJr
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In reply to VanZandt92 • 4:23p, 12/17/17
VanZandt92 said:
Snoke was there to die.

Oh and right now The Hobbit movies are looking pretty great
never.

such wasted potential.
could have been two solid movies.

but we got balls-on-chin and elf/dwarf love, not the mention that Steven Frye and Alfred garbage.
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Ulrich
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In reply to VanZandt92 • 4:24p, 12/17/17
VanZandt92 said:
Snoke was there to die.

Oh and right now The Hobbit movies are looking pretty great

I'm not sure what you mean by that second comment. The Hobbit movies were pretty terrible.
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Dro07
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4:33p, 12/17/17
AG
I really wanted this movie to start off as a flash back. Where Ben gets to the academy and begins to learn how to use the force and you can see him start to do some dark things. Maybe kill an animal with the force or something like that. Slowly progress into seeking out the dark and finding Snoke or something that causes him to go closer to the dark. There was a great Old republic trailer about the twins that i thought could have been great in here done right. The end would have been a role reversal of Ben going into the room and trying to strike Luke down because Snoke wanted it so.

The parentage still bugs me and not buying it yet.

I am sure the next animated series will probably take place in the unknown region and possibly shed some light on snoke or the first order.
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SeattleAgJr
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4:35p, 12/17/17
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aggiebird02
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In reply to SeattleAgJr • 4:37p, 12/17/17

That's funny!
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