I don't think that is apples to apples.Farmer1906 said:
Same question for The emperor.
Like, there wasn't even the slightest bit of curiosity on your part about who this guy was? How he became so powerful with the force? what made him seek out Vader in the first place? He had to have been around during ANH, so who/what/where was he?!
M.C. Swag said:I don't understand this. Correct me if I'm wrong but your primary point of contention with Snoke was his overall similarity to Palpatine right?TCTTS said:
Bingo. Probably my favorite plot development/surprise of the whole movie, and made me even retroactively like/forgive TFA more.
So how does just writing him off wash your feelings from the previous movie? At this point I feel like all it did was confuse people. Like, there wasn't even the slightest bit of curiosity on your part about who this guy was? How he became so powerful with the force? what made him seek out Kylo in the first place? He had to have been around during the OT, so who/what/where was he?!
I mean, i don't know how you could feel anything other than cheapened at his sudden death. It just felt...pointless. Even if you can accept his 'primary' role was to train Kylo, I can't disagree more. His role FELT like it was much deeper than that.
I feel as though the deaths of Han and Luke WERE important. Han's death accelerated Kylo's path along the darkside. Luke died after once again saving the Rebels/Resistance (in a legendary hero type of way). Leia isn't even dead yet...bangobango said:
Just start the movies a couple hundred years after TLJ and have Luke and Han and Leia be nothing more than legends whispered about in stories. I would much rather you do that than bring them back just to carelessly kill them off.
....you are so far off on this.amercer said:
Dude blew up the Death Star, killing millions including slaves, prisoners, contractors, and a bunch of innocent people.
Luke was and awesome Jedi, not Jesus Christ.
I posted earlier, I am beginning to suspect the plan is to end the third movie with the First Order still in power and the Rebels still battling them so that future franchise projects already have a defined structure to operate within.Belton Ag said:
I wonder if this had been the plan for Snoke all along or if Johnson convinced Lucasfilm to kill him off in order to advance Kyle Ren's character.
I also wonder if Johnson changed up Rey's backstory/origin (assuming Kylo was telling the truth).
M.C. Swag said:
Man...i just can't agree with any of that. I don't think his introduction and lack of backstory was lazy...but I sure as **** think his death was. You and I are 180 on this. His death felt like the ruse. Like the writers just shrugged and said 'fuggit.'
Both. All of the above.TCTTS said:
You can't agree with my sentiment or the fact that that's what the filmmakers were doing? Because it's 95% apparent that's exactly what Johnson and co we're doing. That's literally the theme of the movie.
I think Han's death moved the story forward in that it helped progress Kylo's character. I will give you that, but anybody could have played Kylo's dad. They didn't need Kylo's dad to be Han Solo, especially if the whole freaking point of the movie, like TCTTS and some others are suggesting, is that it doesn't matter if you have Skywalker blood or special parents. I mean, patricide is a big deal no matter what your last name is.aggiephoenix02 said:I feel as though the deaths of Han and Luke WERE important. Han's death accelerated Kylo's path along the darkside. Luke died after once again saving the Rebels/Resistance (in a legendary hero type of way). Leia isn't even dead yet...bangobango said:
Just start the movies a couple hundred years after TLJ and have Luke and Han and Leia be nothing more than legends whispered about in stories. I would much rather you do that than bring them back just to carelessly kill them off.
I worked with a male who identified as gay, he was dating his boyfriend who was a female who identified as being a gay male. So they are a heterosexual couple that identify as something totally different. I'm not kidding.bangobango said:
The other thing about this movie, does it not kind of seem like a huge lecture about how stupid "boys" are?
I mean, you have Poe getting taught a lesson by Leia and Holdo.
Finn getting taught a lesson by Rose.
Luke getting taught a lesson by Rey.
And every single lesson is punctuated by the woman shooting, stunning, crashing into, or beating the guy in hand to hand combat.
I know, I know, "politics." Eye roll and all that. If you have a daughter or you are a girl, then this stuff probably seems ridiculous to you. But if you are raising boys right now and they spend anytime watching Disney cartoons, then you probably know there is a happy medium somewhere in there and this is not it.
bangobango said:
Why show the tie fighter in the bottom of the ocean if you're not going to have somebody force lift that damn thing? I don't get that either. Talk about a tease.....
M.C. Swag said:....you are so far off on this.amercer said:
Dude blew up the Death Star, killing millions including slaves, prisoners, contractors, and a bunch of innocent people.
Luke was and awesome Jedi, not Jesus Christ.
I think some people are interpreting "it doesn't matter" the wrong way. It's not Rey's past that is important to the story, it's Rey's future. It's not Snoke's backstory that's important, it's Kylo Ren's story, which involves turning to the dark side, struggling with the light, and then fully rejecting the light, killing both his literal and surrogate father in order to achieve what he wants: power.M.C. Swag said:Both. All of the above.TCTTS said:
You can't agree with my sentiment or the fact that that's what the filmmakers were doing? Because it's 95% apparent that's exactly what Johnson and co we're doing. That's literally the theme of the movie.
Rian Johnson could not have picked a worse message than 'it doesn't matter.' Rey is special solely for the reason the universe says so. Snoke is in power for no reason other than....it doesnt matter? Like...what? Am I taking crazy pills? How does that message come across as enjoyable in this universe?
Junkhead said:bangobango said:
Why show the tie fighter in the bottom of the ocean if you're not going to have somebody force lift that damn thing? I don't get that either. Talk about a tease.....
Wasn't that an X-Wing?
So no actual plan for Luke. No actual backstory for Snoke.Quote:
"Not really. That's what's been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.
But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose."
I get that and I'm not asking for a trilogy of prequel movies to show how Snoke arrived at the head of the First Order, but I would like some context as to where he was during the OT. Like, he was obviously trained by a Sith....fine. I can even get by his disfigurement as something he got when he probably killed his former master...but I still what to know what his connection was to the prior OT. He had to have been someone close to inherit the throne of the Empire. no? Actually, just any backstory on the First Order in general would be great.Ag Since 83 said:I think some people are interpreting "it doesn't matter" the wrong way. It's not Rey's past that is important to the story, it's Rey's future. It's not Snoke's backstory that's important, it's Kylo Ren's story, which involves turning to the dark side, struggling with the light, and then fully rejecting the light, killing both his literal and surrogate father in order to achieve what he wants: power.M.C. Swag said:Both. All of the above.TCTTS said:
You can't agree with my sentiment or the fact that that's what the filmmakers were doing? Because it's 95% apparent that's exactly what Johnson and co we're doing. That's literally the theme of the movie.
Rian Johnson could not have picked a worse message than 'it doesn't matter.' Rey is special solely for the reason the universe says so. Snoke is in power for no reason other than....it doesnt matter? Like...what? Am I taking crazy pills? How does that message come across as enjoyable in this universe?
Snoke's backstory doesn't matter in the same way Palpatine's didn't matter. Go back before the prequels. You didn't know Palpatine's backstory. Did anyone need to? No, the original trilogy was still great.
Now, they can always try and tell the backstory at some point (and I assume they will in some canon material), but it's ultimately not important to the plot of THIS SERIES OF MOVIES. Because it's Rey and Kylo's story, and Snoke served his purpose for that.
Ultimately, this is a demonstration of a long standing problem Star Wars has: everyone wants something different from the movies. If Snoke's backstory is what was important to you about this series, you're not going to like it, unfortunately.
But that's only enjoyable if it is set-up correctly and makes sense in the universe that has several movies and tv shows already behind it. It's not creative or exciting to turn things on its head just because nobody expects it. It has to make sense in the context of the universe and the overarching themes and stories that have been explored.TCTTS said:
Did you and I watch the same movie? Literally, the theme of the movie is "where you come from doesn't matter." Meant as a positive sentiment. In other words, a scavenger girl can become a Force-wielding leader of the Resistance without HAVING to be a Skywalker. Like it or not, the OT put a lot of emphasis on Luke being a Skywalker. And as poor and as removed from the action as he was, he was still part of a legacy and dsitined to become great partly because of that legacy. The force seemingly chose him BECAUSE he was a Skywalker, because it was literally in his blood. But TLJ turns that on its head and says, "Nope, anyone can be anything." And Snoke's entire existence and subsequent death is there to underline that point. To literally say, "Things aren't going to go the way you think." To subvert expectations and make it clear that everything we once knew is not reality as we've been led to believe so far.
That was well said...TCTTS said:
Did you and I watch the same movie? Literally, the theme of the movie is "where you come from doesn't matter." Meant as a positive sentiment. In other words, a scavenger girl can become a Force-wielding leader of the Resistance without HAVING to be a Skywalker. Like it or not, the OT put a lot of emphasis on Luke being a Skywalker. And as poor and as removed from the action as he was at the onset, he was still part of a legacy and desitined to become great partly because of that legacy. The force seemingly chose him BECAUSE he was a Skywalker, because it was literally in his blood. But TLJ turns that on its head and says, "Nope, anyone can be anything." And Snoke's entire existence and subsequent death is there to underline that point. To literally say, "Things aren't going to go the way you think." To subvert expectations and make it clear that everything we once knew is not reality as we've been led to believe so far.
amercer said:
Dude blew up the Death Star, killing millions including slaves, prisoners, contractors, and a bunch of innocent people.
Luke was and awesome Jedi, not Jesus Christ.
This is also well stated! What a great thread!bangobango said:But that's only enjoyable if it is set-up correctly and makes sense in the universe that has several movies and tv shows already behind it. It's not creative or exciting to turn things on its head just because nobody expects it. It has to make sense in the context of the universe and the overarching themes and stories that have been explored.TCTTS said:
Did you and I watch the same movie? Literally, the theme of the movie is "where you come from doesn't matter." Meant as a positive sentiment. In other words, a scavenger girl can become a Force-wielding leader of the Resistance without HAVING to be a Skywalker. Like it or not, the OT put a lot of emphasis on Luke being a Skywalker. And as poor and as removed from the action as he was, he was still part of a legacy and dsitined to become great partly because of that legacy. The force seemingly chose him BECAUSE he was a Skywalker, because it was literally in his blood. But TLJ turns that on its head and says, "Nope, anyone can be anything." And Snoke's entire existence and subsequent death is there to underline that point. To literally say, "Things aren't going to go the way you think." To subvert expectations and make it clear that everything we once knew is not reality as we've been led to believe so far.
I am not personally that hung up on Rey's parentage, but I can understand why a lot of people are disappointed in that reveal.
The "Chosen One" is definitely a trope, but it's a trope because people enjoy it. Deep down, we all want to imagine we are "more special" than everybody else, and we cling to that in our protagonist.
if you want to move away from that, then fine, but do a better job setting it up. If you want to show that nobody is special, nobody is protected by fate or whatever, then don't also have a scene with a central character developing amazing abilities as to yet unseen or unheard of that save her from sure death at the very last minute. That is just sloppy.
Because having him as Supreme Leader from the get go eliminates an important character arc for him. He has challenges he has to go through: betray his uncle, kill his father, fight Rey, trick Snoke into thinking he's an obedient servant, kill Snoke. That's how you understand the antagonist.M.C. Swag said:I get that and I'm not asking for a trilogy of prequel movies to show how Snoke arrived at the head of the First Order, but I would like some context as to where he was during the OT. Like, he was obviously trained by a Sith....fine. I can even get by his disfigurement as something he got when he probably killed his former master...but I still what to know what his connection was to the prior OT. He had to have been someone close to inherit the throne of the Empire. no? Actually, just any backstory on the First Order in general would be great.Ag Since 83 said:I think some people are interpreting "it doesn't matter" the wrong way. It's not Rey's past that is important to the story, it's Rey's future. It's not Snoke's backstory that's important, it's Kylo Ren's story, which involves turning to the dark side, struggling with the light, and then fully rejecting the light, killing both his literal and surrogate father in order to achieve what he wants: power.M.C. Swag said:Both. All of the above.TCTTS said:
You can't agree with my sentiment or the fact that that's what the filmmakers were doing? Because it's 95% apparent that's exactly what Johnson and co we're doing. That's literally the theme of the movie.
Rian Johnson could not have picked a worse message than 'it doesn't matter.' Rey is special solely for the reason the universe says so. Snoke is in power for no reason other than....it doesnt matter? Like...what? Am I taking crazy pills? How does that message come across as enjoyable in this universe?
Snoke's backstory doesn't matter in the same way Palpatine's didn't matter. Go back before the prequels. You didn't know Palpatine's backstory. Did anyone need to? No, the original trilogy was still great.
Now, they can always try and tell the backstory at some point (and I assume they will in some canon material), but it's ultimately not important to the plot of THIS SERIES OF MOVIES. Because it's Rey and Kylo's story, and Snoke served his purpose for that.
Ultimately, this is a demonstration of a long standing problem Star Wars has: everyone wants something different from the movies. If Snoke's backstory is what was important to you about this series, you're not going to like it, unfortunately.
Understanding the antagonist in a movie is just as important as understanding the protagonist. I feel good with Kylo. I actually like Adam Driver in that role. But I still want to understand Snoke. Otherwise, why not just show Kylo as the 'emperor supreme' from the get go? Because I don't think Snoke served any purpose.
the point is that there was no established A..B..C arc set in place . They are making up the **** as they go along.Belton Ag said:
Yeah, I don't believe that. If he had decided to have Rey join up with Kylo Ren and betray and kill Leia I'm positive they would have put a stop to it. We already know that Kennedy does influence the films based on the stories about Rogue One and Solo.
