That was probably my gateway. My friends are starting to have kids and that is totally going to be their gifts when they get a little older.

M.C. Swag said:

---

mpl35 said:

---

M.C. Swag said:

---

I can understand GRRM isn't for everyone, but to say he isn't any better than twilight is a ****ing joke and immediately discounts your opinion if you even think they're in the same league.

---

Nobody said that.

Quote:

---

And HP is one of the best overall sagas I've ever read.

---

HAHAHAHA. Now that is a loss of credit right there!

---

Literally 4 posts above mine a guy likened book sales of twilight to GRRM, as if that made them alike more than Rothfuss or Sanderson.

Stop being a dick. If you don't like HP, that's fine, but the narrative JK Rowling crafted is amazing. Harry Potter was a generation defining saga and it will be a staple for every adolescent reader to come. (In fact, Harry Potter is what made me fall in love with the fantasy genre and broke the fear of approaching 1,000 pg - multi book stories.) Not every book has to be dark, edgy or mature to be a classic.

---

I said that twilight and Harry Potter both sold well so you can't just go by sales to judge a book. I did NOT liken the quality of GRRM to those two pieces of garbage. I'm sorry that you apparently grew up on Harry Potter, but that series is absolutely NOT high quality literature. I enjoyed the series overall, but please keep it in perspective. We can go over all the issues if you want, but I feel that is a different thread. I will leave you with the fact that the entire plot of the Goblet of Fire is pointless.

maverick2076 said:

---

I have to admit, I've never read the Redwall books.

---

I have to agree with swimmerbabe. I did read Redwall, tolkien, CSS Lewis, and literally about 1000 other books before Potter was a wet dream of Rowling. I am glad HP came out because it did make fantasy more popular and got a ton of writers a paycheck to publish. But let us not pretend that HP was the original. I think the timing was a perfect storm in fact. But LotR was going to hit theatres anyway. CGI was peaking that allowed many of these films to be made.

Just curious when HBO is finally done with GoT what do yall think will be the next big thing with the fantasy genre on a TV or movie screen?

I feel like the Reckoners would be a pretty great series to do a few movies out of, and I would kill to see Dresden redone from the abomination that was the Syfy show. Stormlight really isn't far enough along for someone to start on I don't think.

I would be both eager and scared to see my favorite books on the screen because really the only successful things I can think of at the moment are LOTR and GoT. HP was popular but the movies have a lot of shortcomings. Narnia was only great for one movie (and the first movie is still one of my favorites), and the Hobbit got worse and worse with each movie .

tv1113 said:

---

Just curious when HBO is finally done with GoT what do yall think will be the next big thing with the fantasy genre on a TV or movie screen?

---

Does Dunk & Egg count as GoT? If not, I think that will be the next big thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sanderson finishes the Stormlight Archive before Martin finishes GoT.

maverick2076 said:

---

I wouldn't be surprised if Sanderson finishes the Stormlight Archive before Martin finishes GoT.

---

well we do have a November date for Oathbringer...so that is not unlikely.

Oathbringer is only book three of a planned five or ten book set depending on how you look at it.

JJxvi said:

---

Oathbringer is only book three of a planned five or ten book set depending on how you look at it.

---

Sanderson is publishing at a clip of one every three years even while writing mistborn novels and finishing up WoT. I'd think since WoT is done, and Mistborn is winding down?, he might be able to speed up. Definitely has a great chance to finish the first group of 5 in the next 6-7 years at the current pace. That would be a tie at Martins current pace IF he actually manages to finish the series in 2 more books. So far he has had to split books before and the current book might not actually make is out in 2017. Also assuming Martin doesn't die...

MW03 said:

---

tv1113 said:

---

Just curious when HBO is finally done with GoT what do yall think will be the next big thing with the fantasy genre on a TV or movie screen?

I feel like the Reckoners would be a pretty great series to do a few movies out of, and I would kill to see Dresden redone from the abomination that was the Syfy show. Stormlight really isn't far enough along for someone to start on I don't think.

I would be both eager and scared to see my favorite books on the screen because really the only successful things I can think of at the moment are LOTR and GoT. HP was popular but the movies have a lot of shortcomings. Narnia was only great for one movie (and the first movie is still one of my favorites), and the Hobbit got worse and worse with each movie .

---

I'd put my money on The Red Rising Trilogy by Pierce Brown.

---

My thought, as well.

M.C. Swag said:

---

Quote:

---

I said that twilight and Harry Potter both sold well so you can't just go by sales to judge a book. I did NOT liken the quality of GRRM to those two pieces of garbage.

---

Yes, copies sold isn't a true indicator of any book's worth (both high selling and low selling authors), but you clearly hold some weird contempt for GRRM and HP that baffles me. And using Twilight as a comp for either is a joke, no matter what obvious point you're trying to make.

Quote:

---

I'm sorry that you apparently grew up on Harry Potter, but that series is absolutely NOT high quality literature.

---

I'm sorry you didn't grow up on HP and that somehow makes you the arbiter of book critics.

Quote:

---

I enjoyed the series overall, but please keep it in perspective. We can go over all the issues if you want, but I feel that is a different thread. I will leave you with the fact that the entire plot of the Goblet of Fire is pointless.

---

Who said it was flawless? And I'd contend there is no flawless author. I can point out issues of Tolkien and his over-writing, Sanderson's repetitive/predictable story formula, or Rothfuss spending 150pgs on a main character fornicating with a fairy that has little value to the overall story arc. Short of Shakespeare, there are no perfect stories, because they've all been told.

And have you read HP? Goblet of Fire was the launching point for the underlying conflict. Harry tasted death for the first time since he was a baby, and the man who killed his parents finally came to power. That book literally injected the series with momentum.

It's becoming clear that your opinion of HP (and GRRM to some degree) is shaded with some undeserved bias. Is it because these authors are more popular than you'd like? Like, to call HP 'garbage' is just absurd and I can only imagine it's because you are too old or too jaded to admit that a younger generation started somewhere other than you did.

---

I said I really like GoT on the previous page. I'd put it in my top 10 series. I simply pointed out that popularity is not a good indicator of quality. My main and only problem with GRRM is that killing off all your characters is not good writing in my opinion. It is like the man decided to go opposite of Erikson who never seemed to (permanently) kill a character. I simply understand why others would be turned off by the dark nature.

Harry Potter is not well written. The plots have serious problems. You grew up on them. I get the strange attachment you will have. I had the same to some books I read as a kid. But then I re-read them when I was older and realized the problems with them. Garbage is probably a bit strong I'll admit. The series is mediocre fair for adults. For YA it is probably "good." But for the overall actual quality versus popularity....well it is vastly overrated. I say that despite mildly enjoying the series.

You completely missed the problem with Goblet of Fire. The entire plot revolved around setting up Harry to touch the Goblet (portkey). This could have been easily accomplished without a tournament..or at least Harry's participation in it. I know this has tried to be explained away by arguing about timing or not revealing the impostor, but it is a poor effort well after the fact.

Again, the laundry list of plot holes, sub par planning, and miraculous inventions Rowling throws in to solve problems or move the story along could be it's own thread. My biggest complaint is that she didn't plan out the story very well to start. She constantly invents new spells, problems, and solutions that would have effected the story and characters actions in earlier if they had "existed" then. Do you want me to list a bunch of them? I hesitate since I don't want to ruin the love you have for HP.

bangobango said:

---

He's just one of these guys that hates on anything that gets too popular.

---

Not even close.

Hmmm I tried to change the topic back to something fun instead of pointless arguments but oh well

I had not heard of red rising I may have to give it a try

Quote:

---

Harry Potter is not well written. The plots have serious problems. You grew up on them. I get the strange attachment you will have.

---

My personal attachment to the series is irrelevant to the level you deem its (un)worthiness. I am not championing HP as the cornerstone of fantasy literature, but I will argue with anyone who claims it is garbage or contributes little value to the genre it resides.

Quote:

---

I had the same to some books I read as a kid. But then I re-read them when I was older and realized the problems with them. Garbage is probably a bit strong I'll admit. The series is mediocre fair for adults. For YA it is probably "good." But for the overall actual quality versus popularity....well it is vastly overrated. I say that despite mildly enjoying the series.

---

Why does a fantasy book have to be geared for adults to qualify as 'good' for you? Books 1-3 were certainly aimed at the YA audience and it succeeded in capturing them. The unique challenge of HP was how it evolved to encompass the youth it was built on, while also growing with that base as they themselves aged. I was 11 years old when the Sorcerer's Stone was released and was 19 when the series conclusion was published. There was significant growth and maturity in the tone of the series between book 3 and book 4. That was intentional and also ingenious for Rowling. That is a unique and somewhat risky move for her. It would have been easy to crank out happy-go lucky children's sequels, all the while printing money. She executed it perfectly. EDIT to also add that Rowling is also 1 of few authors I can think of that was able to write a saga that didn't suffer in quality or absurdity as the story went on. Book 7 was legitimately the best of the bunch and not many authors are capable of delivering on the 'hype' they promise. (See: Rothfuss)

As for the overall quality that you see to believe is overrated....the series is great literature. The prose is average, I'll give you that, but her characters are heroic but flawed, her plot lines are complex, her imagery and foreshadowing are impeccable and all these traits are combined with themes that are deep and layered. Themes in a fantasy world that resonate with you in your every day life.

Would I put it against something more 'classical' like 1984? No, but have you tried to read something like "Mrs Dalloway" or anything by Virginia Woolf? "Great" literature but her writing is a stream of consciousness and not to my liking. I loved "The Hobbit" and LotR, but they took me forever to get through because of Tolkien's obsession with tangents. Some people have an aversion to modern works, acting like they are beneath them, and only uphold these classic works.

The point is, you are reading something that interest you and is good literature. Going back to my personal experience as an 11 yr old who never read anything longer or more complex than a Goosebumps novel (shoutout to RL Stine), I started my fantasy journey/love with HP, and I'm certain the same is the case for thousands of other current adults of my generation. Between book 1 and book 7, I consumed Tolkien, Bradbury, Wells, King, and many others.All have flaws but all gave something to the genre that is worth reading and commending. Anything besides some undeserved contempt you continue to harbor.

tv1113 said:

---

Hmmm I tried to change the topic back to something fun instead of pointless arguments but oh well

I had not heard of red rising I may have to give it a try

---

It's really fun. That and Locke Lamora are rapid reads you'll want to finish as fast as possible. Definitely check em out.

M.C. Swag said:

---

tv1113 said:

---

Hmmm I tried to change the topic back to something fun instead of pointless arguments but oh well

I had not heard of red rising I may have to give it a try

---

It's really fun. That and Locke Lamora are rapid reads you'll want to finish as fast as possible. Definitely check em out.

---

I didn't like Lamora but to each their own. The characters and dialogue just seemed silly to me.

Quote:

---

I am not championing HP as the cornerstone of fantasy literature.

---

Could have fooled me. Especially considering the rest of your post:

Quote:

---

the series is great literature

---

I have tried to move on in this thread multiple times, but you keep posting novella length replies twisting my words and changing what I have said.

Quote:

---

Why does a fantasy book have to be geared for adults to qualify as 'good' for you?

---

Maybe because I am not a child? When you write YA, you skip many issues like character motivations, don't have to be as concerned with internal consistency, and can get away with inventing spells as you go to solve your heroes problems. It is lighter and more fun with action to entertain. The writing that is geared to a child or a teen, is different than what is for an adult. So while it may be good for children, the writing will not be as high quality when viewed objectively as an adult.

Quote:

---

There was significant growth and maturity in the tone of the series between book 3 and book 4. That was intentional and also ingenious for Rowling. That is a unique and somewhat risky move for her. It would have been easy to crank out happy-go lucky children's sequels, all the while printing money.

---

I think it is a bad move in the end. Sure it worked for you since you were a kid at the right time. However, now you have a series that starts as a children's book and ends as a darker YA novel. Do you think people are going to read it over a 5-10 years as the mature? No. They will read it all at once. So you are stuck reading outside the target age range either at the beginning or the end. Sure it worked for her as she wrote it, but in the long run I'd say it is a bad choice. She probably did it to keep that large following and keep raking in the money for her movies and books....

Quote:

---

Anything besides some undeserved contempt you continue to harbor.

---

I don't have contempt for it. I already admitted calling it garbage like Twilight was probably a bit strong. I applaud getting children to read. It opened the door for many fantasy authors thanks to the money it made. It has way too many plot holes to be great or even good to me as an adult that read it.

Who has written a series of books with 0 plots holes, great technical prose, characters with depth, a narrative you cared for that is edgy but not too edgy, that wasn't cliched or contrived for the sake of being artsy AND somehow managed to garner your approval?

It's not Tolkien - plot holes and tangents rule him out.
It's not Rothfuss - a great technical writer but his best work is about a character whose only flaw is that he's too good at everything.
It's not Sanderson, or GRRM, or JK Rowling....


Genuinely curious which of these perfect stories I haven't heard of.

M.C. Swag said:

---

Who has written a series of books with 0 plots holes, great technical prose, characters with depth, a narrative you cared for, that wasn't cliched or contrived for the sake of being artsy AND somehow managed to garner your approval?

It's not Tolkien - plot holes and tangents rule him out.
It's not Rothfuss - a great technical writer but his best work is about a character whose only flaw is that he's too good at everything.
It's not Sanderson, or GRRM, or JK Rowling....


Genuinely curious which of these perfect stories I haven't heard of.

---

Good lord. I said TOO MANY. Of course there are errors in most series. Especially long ones. Bit there aren't usually entire books based on a plot that didn't need to exist (goblet of fire) or magic spells introduced like unbreakable oaths that could have prevented any betrayals of Voldemort he had just thought to use it, or three teens running around starving when they could have used magic to solve their problems. And so forth. I am far from alone in my criticisms.

The Childish Adult

Dumbing down American readers

good fare for it's age group

pedestrian prose

Here's a 1.5* review of Shawshank Redemption. Guess that movie sucked...you know, if someone said it did.

M.C. Swag said:

---

Here's a 1.5* review of Shawshank Redemption. Guess that movie sucked...you know, if someone said it did.

---

Boy I really hit a nerve. You ignore my criticisms basing your replies instead upon sarcasm and straw man arguements fueled by some irrational anger.


https://g.co/kgs/87WPho

PatAg said:

---

mpl35 said:

---

M.C. Swag said:

---

Here's a 1.5* review of Shawshank Redemption. Guess that movie sucked...you know, if someone said it did.

---

Boy I really hit a nerve. You ignore my criticisms basing your replies instead upon sarcasm and straw man arguements fueled by some irrational anger.


https://g.co/kgs/87WPho

---

You guys need to take this somewhere else...but for the record you are wrong, and Harry Potter is great.

---

Apologies for my part in the derail, but I don't feel too bad as this thread will resume it's dormancy soon enough.

As to grampl:
I'm just chilling and have responded to your every (terrible) point. Find me seven thousand pages of text within a continuous and compelling narrative that doesn't have any plot holes (or any other minute and arbitrary flaws that you would deem it as unworthy).

On the topic of plot holes, literally everything in the Kingkiller Chronicles is a plot hole..because Rothfuss seems unable or undisciplined to finish his story. At least Rowling delivered. Over two thousand pages in and not a single king has been killed. There's your straw man.

You didn't address a single criticism other than to talk trash about other series. But thanks for playing. Maybe if you put as much effort into addressing a single plot hole problem in HP as you did with that "witty" word play on my handle and hadn't led off by calling me a dick, you would have accomplished something.

This is the madness that happens when we suffer such a long delay with all of our favorite fantasy authors and there is no light seen at the end of the tunnel yet.

bangobango said:

---

It's young adult fantasy fiction for pete's sake. Being snooty about it is about on par with arguing who is the better artist between Tim McGraw and Kenny Chesney.

None of it is high brow or that intellectual and talking down to people about it just seems ridiculous to me.

---

go back. I used HP and twilight as example of how popularity doesn't necessarily equate to quality. I the response included cussing and said my opinion was worthless. Then I got called a dick for my opinion. That isn't me talking down to people. I explained WHY I felt this way and was further attacked.

Count Counterpoint said:

---

tv1113 said:

---

Just curious when HBO is finally done with GoT what do yall think will be the next big thing with the fantasy genre on a TV or movie screen?

---

Does Dunk & Egg count as GoT? If not, I think that will be the next big thing.

---

I am hoping for them to convert Bernard Cornwell's Arthur Series into a show form... that dude can tell a badass re-imagination of common tales. and he puts out some books at a good pace. His historical fiction blend known historical characters with some fictional ones, and generally re-interpret mythical stories into a completely believable and rational "source" tale that you could easily see how people over time would flavor it with added grandeur until the truth of history was embellished to near-unrecognizable story. His "what (probably) really happened" writing is very refreshing - its brutal, its believable, its dark, its raw, ..., there's not alot of happy endings - only somewhat satisfactory outcomes.

I started reading his Warlord Chronicles (AKA Saxon Stories; AKA the Last Kingdom) because I like a good viking tale. BBC has made season 1 of "The Last Kingdom" based on the first book in the series with Uhtred of Bebbanburg...

However, if HBO wanted to pick up a very badass and intricate tale of Arthur the Warlord and Never-king, son of Uther Pendragon:

Quote:

---

Once upon a time, in a land that was called Britain, these things happened . . . ." well, maybe. The Warlord Trilogy is my attempt to tell the story of Arthur, 'Rex Quondam Rexque Futurus', the Once and Future King, although I doubt he ever was a king. I suspect he was a great warlord of the sixth century. Nennius, who was one of the earliest historians to mention Arthur, calls him the 'dux bellorum' leader of battles or warlord. I have to confess that of all the books I have written these three are my favourites. They have been translated into a score of languages and were best-sellers in a dozen countries.

---

If they could pour GoT resources into a Warlord Trilogy show with Derfel as the main protagonist and future right-hand-man of Arthur... it would be awesome... because Arthur, for all of his wisdom and ideology is MAJORLY flawed when it comes to Guinevere - and she is rotten to him for the most part... GREAT story that I would suggest to anyone.

I am re-reading Dance of Dragons right now, but as soon as I am done I will be starting The Archer's Tale by Cornwell with Harlequin. I have really enjoyed both of the other series above because of his great description of the close-quarters combat with swords, axes, shield walls, etc. So I am actually a little hesitant and apprehensive about reading about a protagonist / main character with a ranged weapon as his soldier craft... I hope its good.

MW03 said:

---

tv1113 said:

---

Just curious when HBO is finally done with GoT what do yall think will be the next big thing with the fantasy genre on a TV or movie screen?

I feel like the Reckoners would be a pretty great series to do a few movies out of, and I would kill to see Dresden redone from the abomination that was the Syfy show. Stormlight really isn't far enough along for someone to start on I don't think.

I would be both eager and scared to see my favorite books on the screen because really the only successful things I can think of at the moment are LOTR and GoT. HP was popular but the movies have a lot of shortcomings. Narnia was only great for one movie (and the first movie is still one of my favorites), and the Hobbit got worse and worse with each movie .

---

I'd put my money on The Red Rising Trilogy by Pierce Brown.

---

Would definitely be interested. Wonder if it would be really hard to do well. Lot of internal dialogue for the main character that is pretty critical.

Hmm I think it would be fairly straight forward to adapt. I can't recall any crazy internal dialogue that cant be made obvious with what's happening on-screen. (Could be wrong though, it's been a little while since I've read it)

Just remember thinking about this while reading it. Would seem like getting the information on the different colors clearly conveyed might be tough. Seems like that is the hardest part on SF adaptations, getting the complicated world building concepts onto the screen is tough (based on past attempts, which I generally enjoy despite mixed reviews.) Also how they would convey the differences between the golds and the lower colors that were still pretty human, without it appearing completely unbelievable (unbelievable for SF at least.).

Don;t get me wrong, I would love to see it happen and would definitely watch. Red Rising was one of the more original concepts I have seen in a while and I thought it was awesome.