A healthy bounce-back Keuchel is better and nastier than Quintana has ever been. Quintana would be the most consistent performer to date, but with more and more teams dropping out, it's quickly becoming a buyer's market and I just don't think it is worth Martes, Tucker, and Musgrove together. That is a lot of heft.Nuke LaLoosh said:
Guys... Quintana would immediately be our ace.
***** Official 2017 Astros Off Season Thread *****
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Frok said:
So why would the Astros be interested in trading prospects for Quintana? I admit I don't know much about him but when I look at his stats he doesn't look like anything special.
He's a top of the rotation starter controllable through 2020.
I don't know how you can say he's nothing special. The last four years he's started 32+ games/yr with 200+ innings/yr with sub 3.5 ERAs.
I'm not sure he'd be our ace but like I said we've have the best 1-2 punch in baseball. If LMJ stays healthy that's a nasty 1-2-3 especially in a playoff series.
With that said I don't think I want to give up all that for him. That's a crap ton
With that said I don't think I want to give up all that for him. That's a crap ton
As far as sustained high end pitching over several seasons? Absolutely. But I think Dallas and Lance both have higher ceilings. We saw Dallas's 2 years ago when he brought home some hardware.Nuke LaLoosh said:
Guys... Quintana would immediately be our ace.
If we want to get serious about a run to the WS we need another high-end starter. It could be Quintana and maybe, in the end, he's worth those prospects, but I see why a lot of people are hesitant. Maybe Martes emerges as a McCullers clone and we're there. Maybe Charlie comes back healthy and improves on his 2013 season (3.26 ERA, 1.284 WHIP). There were rumors about Archer & Gray. Either could be traded and have a rebound year.
Would we take Quintana if it meant only giving up 2 of the 3 prospects mentioned (Martes, Younger Tucker, Musgrove)?
No way in hell I'm giving up all 3.... I'm not even sure I would do 2.gougler08 said:
Would we take Quintana if it meant only giving up 2 of the 3 prospects mentioned (Martes, Younger Tucker, Musgrove)?
Agree on no way in hell for all 3, but I'd seriously consider it if it's 2 of them. That would sure up our rotation for 3 years and make this a pretty good sized window to make a run at a title
They are all top 30 prospects in baseball. 2 I guess I would do if they think he is going to to stay in the low 3s in era. We will look really stupid if we give that up and then he flops.gougler08 said:
Agree on no way in hell for all 3, but I'd seriously consider it if it's 2 of them. That would sure up our rotation for 3 years and make this a pretty good sized window to make a run at a title
I'd give up 2. Quintana would arguably be our best pitcher. His stats are similar to, if not better than Dallas'. that pitching rotation combined with current lineup, yikes.
No. Martes has ace potential. And he would have to be included.
Would gladly give up Tucker, Musgrove, and Paulino though.
Would gladly give up Tucker, Musgrove, and Paulino though.
zagman said:
No. Martes has ace potential. And he would have to be included.
Would gladly give up Tucker, Musgrove, and Paulino though.
But you're getting an ace who's already proven and under control for the foreseeable future.
That's why I tend to be OK with including Martes.
Honestly, I'd hate to part with Tucker. The more I read and hear about him the more it makes me think he's going to be a really good AS caliber player.
Not so sure Quintana is an Ace. Solid pitcher? Yes. Will he go out there and pitch a complete game shutout for you? No. He'll get you 6-7 strong innings consistently.
So does that mean Dallas isn't an ace either? Obviously last season would say no.
I think there is a pretty big gap between Ace and Solid Pitcher.CSWendt said:
Not so sure Quintana is an Ace. Solid pitcher? Yes. Will he go out there and pitch a complete game shutout for you? No. He'll get you 6-7 strong innings consistently.
I can agree he doesn't always go deep. He's got 1 complete game in his career. But 84% of the time he pitches into the 6th, over half the time into the 7th. He's pitched 200 or more innings for 4 years straight. His ERA in those 4 years ranges between 3.20 & 3.51. Over the last few years, his WAR for pitchers has been 10th, 15th, 10th, & 30th. He's not Sale, Kershaw, or Kluber, but he's the next tier. Over that 4 year period, he's 7th overall in WAR for pitchers.
It is pretty safe to say he's an ace or near ace entering his prime and under control.
If we're judging Quintana as not an ace then only Dallas has been an ace for 2015 and was kind of close in 2014.k20dub said:
So does that mean Dallas isn't an ace either? Obviously last season would say no.
Agree on both posts above.
Dallas 2014/2015 were both better than Q
CSWendt said:
Not so sure Quintana is an Ace. Solid pitcher? Yes. Will he go out there and pitch a complete game shutout for you? No. He'll get you 6-7 strong innings consistently.
That's why I don't understand why the Astros would consider trading three prospects, one of which could have a higher ceiling than Quintana. I think I would just hold on to what I have.
that's the poker game of baseball prospects. Lots of coulds and woulds vs a proven track record in the show.
This so many times.Thriller said:
that's the poker game of baseball prospects. Lots of coulds and woulds vs a proven track record in the show.
Which is why I would stand pat for now. Let's see what we have this season with Morton, Musgrove, Devo, Feliz, Martes, etc before we start giving up so much.
And not for nothing, but one of the ESPN analysts (Law, maybe) has Morton as a breakout player, projecting him to blow past 2.0 WAR this year.
I agree. It's like being on a straight and flush draw while the other guy has pocket rockets.shano0603 said:This so many times.Thriller said:
that's the poker game of baseball prospects. Lots of coulds and woulds vs a proven track record in the show.
Which is why I would stand pat for now. Let's see what we have this season with Morton, Musgrove, Devo, Feliz, Martes, etc before we start giving up so much.
I also do not want to make that trade. That is 3 guys that could all be as good as Quintana outside of maybe Joe Musgrove (who I still think can be a very very good MOR pitcher).
irish pete ag06 said:I agree. It's like being on a straight and flush draw while the other guy has pocket rockets.shano0603 said:This so many times.Thriller said:
that's the poker game of baseball prospects. Lots of coulds and woulds vs a proven track record in the show.
Which is why I would stand pat for now. Let's see what we have this season with Morton, Musgrove, Devo, Feliz, Martes, etc before we start giving up so much.
I also do not want to make that trade. That is 3 guys that could all be as good as Quintana outside of maybe Joe Musgrove (who I still think can be a very very good MOR pitcher).
That flush may never hit. All 3 could be bums and never make a difference at the big league level.
Standard risk vs reward scenario. You pretty much know what Quintana would give us. An era around 3.3, which is great for the amount of runs we will score this years.
However, the 3 guys in question are all too 30 MLB prospects. Musgrove absolutely dominated the minor leagues the last couple of years, and a 4.06 era isn't too shabby for his first 10 starts. Which will likely improve. Is giving up all of those guys worth half a run a game? I also see Martes as a future ace if he can get a 3rd pitch going. High 90's arm with great stuff. Tucker started slow in the minors, but started doing much better. He was the national player of the year his senior year of high school.
However, the 3 guys in question are all too 30 MLB prospects. Musgrove absolutely dominated the minor leagues the last couple of years, and a 4.06 era isn't too shabby for his first 10 starts. Which will likely improve. Is giving up all of those guys worth half a run a game? I also see Martes as a future ace if he can get a 3rd pitch going. High 90's arm with great stuff. Tucker started slow in the minors, but started doing much better. He was the national player of the year his senior year of high school.
And Quintana could struggle or get injured. There are no sure things. Who predicted Gomez forgetting how to play baseball?
Technically anything is possible. It is about what you think is more likely.iBrad said:
And Quintana could struggle or get injured. There are no sure things. Who predicted Gomez forgetting how to play baseball?
There's also the timing aspect of it all.
Marte and Musgrove are probably what 3 years away from being mainstays in the middle to top of this rotation. Whereas, Quintana joins the rotation right now and is #2 behind Keuchel.
It's an interesting discussion to have and I'm glad I'm not the one making the calls on stuff like this.
Marte and Musgrove are probably what 3 years away from being mainstays in the middle to top of this rotation. Whereas, Quintana joins the rotation right now and is #2 behind Keuchel.
It's an interesting discussion to have and I'm glad I'm not the one making the calls on stuff like this.
Ag_07 said:
There's also the timing aspect of it all.
Marte and Musgrove are probably what 3 years away from being mainstays in the middle to top of this rotation. Whereas, Quintana joins the rotation right now and is #2 behind Keuchel.
It's an interesting discussion to have and I'm glad I'm not the one making the calls on stuff like this.
I wouldn't say that about musgrove. He might be ready this year.
I sure as hell hope so. Obviously, our rotation has so many question marks, but so much potential too.shano0603 said:Ag_07 said:
There's also the timing aspect of it all.
Marte and Musgrove are probably what 3 years away from being mainstays in the middle to top of this rotation. Whereas, Quintana joins the rotation right now and is #2 behind Keuchel.
It's an interesting discussion to have and I'm glad I'm not the one making the calls on stuff like this.
I wouldn't say that about musgrove. He might be ready this year.
And I think that's why I lean towards making a move. A rotation with so many question marks may get us to October, but isn't a recipe for success when we get there.
See Boston. They traded a $60MM asset for Sale. Hindsight being what it is, they are extremely happy they did so given the injury to Price.
All it takes is DK, LMJ, etc to go down and we are hosed to the point of relying upon possibly not-yet-ready prospects to mature in the bigs.
I'm not comfortable with risk when it comes to pitching. I'll take the established starter (for 2 of the prospects) over the uncertainty we have now.
See Boston. They traded a $60MM asset for Sale. Hindsight being what it is, they are extremely happy they did so given the injury to Price.
All it takes is DK, LMJ, etc to go down and we are hosed to the point of relying upon possibly not-yet-ready prospects to mature in the bigs.
I'm not comfortable with risk when it comes to pitching. I'll take the established starter (for 2 of the prospects) over the uncertainty we have now.
Those 3 are just too much. 2 and the Astros might listen. But 3 gets Kenny Williams hung up on frequently I imagine.
I think you wait until the trade deadline.
I think you wait until the trade deadline.
So sorting through Twitter and the interwebs there seems to be some buzz about Quintana. Seems like most agree he'll certainly be dealt by the deadline, some think it could happen before the season starts, and a few even think it's on the verge of happening any day now.
There's also some talk of Sox scouts out on the Astros back fields leading to speculation that maybe they're doing some due diligence on some deeper guys.
I'd be all for including 2 of those big 3 and another like Reed, Fischer, or Kemp. We shall see but it'll be fun to follow the next week or so.
**Oh yeah...Quintana took a perfect game into the 6th today. Ended up giving up 2H and 0R in 7 IP**
There's also some talk of Sox scouts out on the Astros back fields leading to speculation that maybe they're doing some due diligence on some deeper guys.
I'd be all for including 2 of those big 3 and another like Reed, Fischer, or Kemp. We shall see but it'll be fun to follow the next week or so.
**Oh yeah...Quintana took a perfect game into the 6th today. Ended up giving up 2H and 0R in 7 IP**
I see that the Astros start the season with 10 games in 10 days. Seems like there used to be 2 or 3 off days early in April. Not this year apparently
This is a little old and SIAP, but I found it to be a really interesting read. Carlos Beltran writes about his return to Houston: https://www.theplayerstribune.com/carlos-beltran-astros/
Quote:
And I think that's why I lean towards making a move. A rotation with so many question marks may get us to October, but isn't a recipe for success when we get there.
I agree with Billy Bean. Just get to the post-season. Once you are there it's darn near a coin flip who wins.
I think the price to acquire an ACE via trade is too high. Even if he's awesome he will get pulled after 7 because the "specialists" will have to come in. To me you have to be a Cy-Young level pitcher to possibly be worth a ransom of prospects. Otherwise I would just stick to stacking my farm.