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Gunfight at the Twin Peaks [Staff Warning on page 47]

321,329 Views | 1928 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by rather be fishing
Bradley.Kohr.II
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Freedom of Association does not cover being a part of a criminal organization.

Popular Media portrayal aside, these groups are for vile purposes. Hanging out with killers dealers and human traffickers, is not "living a different lifestyle."

And, I cannot see how one could associate w such a group - closely enough to be considered a member of it - and not be an accomplice
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Bradley.Kohr.II said:

Freedom of Association does not cover being a part of a criminal organization.

Popular Media portrayal aside, these groups are for vile purposes. Hanging out with killers dealers and human traffickers, is not "living a different lifestyle."

And, I cannot see how one could associate w such a group - closely enough to be considered a member of it - and not be an accomplice
Thats because you think "accomplice" has no meaning. You're wrong.

And being in a restaurant with a Harley shirt on isn't the same thing as "hanging out with killers dealers and human traffickers." But go ahead and keep painting with that broad brush - lord knows you hanging out on this board means you're a redneck with two teeth who hates the government and eats oppossum.
Bradley.Kohr.II
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Accomplice is a word with a set legal meaning, which I used intentionally... Might have even taken a test or two about it

Someone who was "in" enough to be invited to that meeting, presumably was "in" enough to know that he was involved in a criminal organization.

The young kids who can feel terrorized into "sorta" joining street gangs, I can feel some sympathy for. (That's a rare case. TMK, they're usually damned by their environment long before then.)

A grown man/middle-aged one who goes seeking to be part of the HA/Banditos/other biker gang, made his choice.

I know not everyone on a motorcycle is trash - but if soneibe joins a group of trash, advertise himself as a member of such a group, whether it's MS-13 tattooed on his throat or HA on his back, he declares himself an enemy of society.

If one chooses to brand himself an outlaw, one cannot whine about the consequences once caught.

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Bradley.Kohr.II said:

Accomplice is a word with a set legal meaning, which I used intentionally... Might have even taken a test or two about it.
Might want to think about asking for a refund for that 1L Criminal Law class, then.
Quote:

Someone who was "in" enough to be invited to that meeting, presumably was "in" enough to know that he was involved in a criminal organization.
Assumes facts not in evidence, misrepresents facts that are in evidence, and ignores a great deal of modern jurisprudence.
Quote:

The young kids who can feel terrorized into "sorta" joining street gangs, I can feel some sympathy for. (That's a rare case. TMK, they're usually damned by their environment long before then.)

A grown man/middle-aged one who goes seeking to be part of the HA/Banditos/other biker gang, made his choice.
All of the same objections as above, plus worst analogy on this thread - which is saying something.
Quote:

I know not everyone on a motorcycle is trash - but if soneibe joins a group of trash, advertise himself as a member of such a group, whether it's MS-13 tattooed on his throat or HA on his back, he declares himself an enemy of society.

If one chooses to brand himself an outlaw, one cannot whine about the consequences once caught.
Again, you should probably look into a refund on that (presumed) law degree. Unless you went to Alabama in the 50's, they probably taught you that arresting and holding someone based on the way they look is, shall we say, frowned upon. Either way, though, MANY of the people who were arrested and held on unreasonable bail - "to send a message," which they also should have taught you in law school is wholly impermissible - were unaffiliated with the Banditos or any other "outlaw motercycle gang."

You are free to come to your own conclusions, thanks to the same Constitution you seem to believe doesn't apply to these folks - but you're not entitled to your own facts. Go back and review the facts before you come in here talking about something you clearly haven't even educated yourself about.
Mr. Dubi
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Not a simple situation here, yes I support one's Constitutional rights and the Bill of Rights, but we are all responsible for our own safety and well being.

I'm going to quote Massad Ayoob here, in respect of self preservation: "Don't go to stupid places with stupid people doing stupid things." If you violate any one of the three above, expect bad things to happen.

Those who fantasize about the gangster outlaw biker lifestyle, and want to live vicariously on the periphery are in violation of all three of Ayoob's rules. Living, or hanging out, even on the periphery of the gangster lifestyle has consequences.

There are other considerations here: if you see bad stuff happening, or bad hombres gathering, it is incumbent upon you, yourself to extricate yourself from the situation. I mean really, if there was a gathering of klansmen would you have left, or just hung out sipping mimosas to see what happened next? What about black panthers, blm-ers, neo-nazi skinheads?


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All of this is great - and I agree with everything you posted - but it leaves out one very important fact: we don't live in a country where Massad Ayoob's wisdom is given the force of law.

I don't think anyone here is saying that these folks are completely free from any kind of blame - and I am certainly not saying that. Instead, we're saying that the strictures of law are important, and when they are ignored - as the great weight of evidence shows they were here - there should be universal condemnation of those who ignore them.

When we let the government decide they can do whatever they want, ignoring individual freedoms and failing to follow the laws and procedures that protect those freedoms, we cede power to those who would be oppressors. This time it may be a bunch of biker trash that you care nothing about, but what about next time? That's the major objection, here.
Mr. Dubi
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We can go back and forth all day. My Ayoob quote was simply a hint to self preservation. The fact that a bunch of innocents were not ventillated is remarkable.


My point was about the same as I'd give to someone rolling through Fergusson, MO during a blm rally (riot). You got shot/mugged/beaten... what the hell did you think was going to happen. If you sleep with dogs, you get fleas.

Each individual is responsible for their own safety and freedom.
dubi
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We agree that innocent biker couple (and others) should not have been held in jail for months on end and lost their jobs. It was completely wrong!

My comment and my husband's followup were to say that we think they should not have been there to start with.....

1st thing I learned in self defense class was to avoid situations where bad stuff will happen. My internal warning system would have been at 500% if I was sitting in a restaurant with a bunch of bikers that I did not personally know.

The older we get the more we avoid situations that have even the smallest chance to go bad. For example I will not get gas or go to Walmart after dark anymore by myself. We keep our doors locked all the time now. We are more mindful of our neighbors or call them if we see a strange car that does not belong. That may sound odd but we live on the same street where I grew up and have had some of the same neighbors for 30+ years.


Mr. Dubi
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I'm pretty sure there was no safe space at that bar...
Bradley.Kohr.II
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Wild Guess - you're not a lawyer
Bradley.Kohr.II
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The prosecution of criminal gangs is oftentimes premised upon evidence that gang members participated in a criminal organizationeither a conspiracy or racketeering enterprisewith a shared identity and criminal purpose. The U.S. Constitution prohibits the criminalizing of mere association with a particular organization. See Scales v. United States, 367 U.S. 203, 225 (1961). However, association with a group of individuals engaged in criminal activity is not protected conduct and, indeed, may implicate federal criminal law. In order to establish the existence of a criminal gang, prosecutors frequently rely on search warrants to collect evidence of the criminal gang's organizational structure, membership, and of the criminal activity conducted by gang members.
Indicia search warrants are frequently used in biker gang investigations to collect indicia of affiliation, such as items bearing the logo or symbol of the biker gangthe leather jackets (colors), vests, belts, jewelry, plaques, t-shirts, tattoo stencils, hats, photographs, membership lists, club or gang documentation, calendars, clocks, or motorcycles. See generally United States v. McConney, 728 F.2d 1195, 1198 (9th Cir. 1984) (en banc) (affirming conviction involving an indicia search warrant that authorized search and seizure of indicia of membership in or association with the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club), overruled on other grounds by Estate of Merchant v. Comm'r, 947 F.2d 1390, 1392 93 (9th Cir. 1991). Indicia search warrants are powerful tools that can be used to establish compelling evidence of the defendants' membership in a gang or enterprise. Indicia search warrants can also facilitate the collection of evidence to support the Government's contention that the defendants' association in the gang or enterprise was, at least in part, for purposes of criminal activity. However, the use of these warrants may raise unique First and Fourth Amendment issues for both prosecutors and agents.
Bradley.Kohr.II
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https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao/legacy/2014/06/03/usab6203.pdf
IDAGG
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Mr. Dubi said:

Not a simple situation here, yes I support one's Constitutional rights and the Bill of Rights, but we are all responsible for our own safety and well being.

I'm going to quote Massad Ayoob here, in respect of self preservation: "Don't go to stupid places with stupid people doing stupid things." If you violate any one of the three above, expect bad things to happen.

Those who fantasize about the gangster outlaw biker lifestyle, and want to live vicariously on the periphery are in violation of all three of Ayoob's rules. Living, or hanging out, even on the periphery of the gangster lifestyle has consequences.
Very good post. There is a huge difference between "Riding Clubs" such as Christian Motorcyclist Association, your local Hog chapter, etc and 'Motorcycle Clubs", or MCs. Most MCs are of the 1% variety or in other words outlaw motorcycle gangs, such as Hells Angels, Banditos, Mongels, Cossacks, etc. The first set is harmless and are just people that enjoy riding together,etc. The second are ongoing criminal enterprises. In terms of the people swept up in this situation, if they are members of those two MCs (Banditos and Cossacks), I have no pity for them. If they aren't members or hangers on and were somehow there and had the poor judgment not to leave, I feel somewhat sorry for them, but poor decisions do have consequences. I do believe some of those charged are probably innocent, but as Mr. Dubi so aptly stated: Don't go to stupid places with stupid people doing stupid things." Or as my Dad used to tell me: "you are known by the company you keep."
The Last Cobra Commander
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Bradley.Kohr.II said:

The prosecution of criminal gangs is oftentimes premised upon evidence that gang members participated in a criminal organizationeither a conspiracy or racketeering enterprisewith a shared identity and criminal purpose. The U.S. Constitution prohibits the criminalizing of mere association with a particular organization. See Scales v. United States, 367 U.S. 203, 225 (1961). However, association with a group of individuals engaged in criminal activity is not protected conduct and, indeed, may implicate federal criminal law. In order to establish the existence of a criminal gang, prosecutors frequently rely on search warrants to collect evidence of the criminal gang's organizational structure, membership, and of the criminal activity conducted by gang members.
Indicia search warrants are frequently used in biker gang investigations to collect indicia of affiliation, such as items bearing the logo or symbol of the biker gangthe leather jackets (colors), vests, belts, jewelry, plaques, t-shirts, tattoo stencils, hats, photographs, membership lists, club or gang documentation, calendars, clocks, or motorcycles. See generally United States v. McConney, 728 F.2d 1195, 1198 (9th Cir. 1984) (en banc) (affirming conviction involving an indicia search warrant that authorized search and seizure of indicia of membership in or association with the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club), overruled on other grounds by Estate of Merchant v. Comm'r, 947 F.2d 1390, 1392 93 (9th Cir. 1991). Indicia search warrants are powerful tools that can be used to establish compelling evidence of the defendants' membership in a gang or enterprise. Indicia search warrants can also facilitate the collection of evidence to support the Government's contention that the defendants' association in the gang or enterprise was, at least in part, for purposes of criminal activity. However, the use of these warrants may raise unique First and Fourth Amendment issues for both prosecutors and agents.


The defense rests??????
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Bradley.Kohr.II said:

Wild Guess - you're not a lawyer
Wrong.
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Mr. Dubi said:

We can go back and forth all day. My Ayoob quote was simply a hint to self preservation. The fact that a bunch of innocents were not ventillated is remarkable.


My point was about the same as I'd give to someone rolling through Fergusson, MO during a blm rally (riot). You got shot/mugged/beaten... what the hell did you think was going to happen. If you sleep with dogs, you get fleas.

Each individual is responsible for their own safety and freedom.
Sleeping with dogs and getting fleas is fine. When the government ignores basic individual rights and flouts the law, the government should be held accountable to the people. That means me and you. My only beef in all of this is that the government did at least one, but likely many, things that it should not have done, and to defend those things by saying "these people shouldn't have been standing what they were standing" is like blaming the victim for her rape. I don't care if she was a twenty-five time felon and known prostitue standing naked in the middle of Times Square, if a woman is raped the rapist should be punished. And when the perpetrator is the very institution that is charged with upholding the law, that makes it even worse.

Even if all of these were bad guys, and even if they knew or should have known that something bad may happen, that doesn't excuse the flouting of the law by McLennan County Law Enforcement. Period.
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Bradley.Kohr.II said:

The prosecution of criminal gangs is oftentimes premised upon evidence that gang members participated in a criminal organizationeither a conspiracy or racketeering enterprisewith a shared identity and criminal purpose. The U.S. Constitution prohibits the criminalizing of mere association with a particular organization. See Scales v. United States, 367 U.S. 203, 225 (1961). However, association with a group of individuals engaged in criminal activity is not protected conduct and, indeed, may implicate federal criminal law. In order to establish the existence of a criminal gang, prosecutors frequently rely on search warrants to collect evidence of the criminal gang's organizational structure, membership, and of the criminal activity conducted by gang members.
Indicia search warrants are frequently used in biker gang investigations to collect indicia of affiliation, such as items bearing the logo or symbol of the biker gangthe leather jackets (colors), vests, belts, jewelry, plaques, t-shirts, tattoo stencils, hats, photographs, membership lists, club or gang documentation, calendars, clocks, or motorcycles. See generally United States v. McConney, 728 F.2d 1195, 1198 (9th Cir. 1984) (en banc) (affirming conviction involving an indicia search warrant that authorized search and seizure of indicia of membership in or association with the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club), overruled on other grounds by Estate of Merchant v. Comm'r, 947 F.2d 1390, 1392 93 (9th Cir. 1991). Indicia search warrants are powerful tools that can be used to establish compelling evidence of the defendants' membership in a gang or enterprise. Indicia search warrants can also facilitate the collection of evidence to support the Government's contention that the defendants' association in the gang or enterprise was, at least in part, for purposes of criminal activity. However, the use of these warrants may raise unique First and Fourth Amendment issues for both prosecutors and agents.
Indicia search warrants are not even remotely at issue in this case, and the section I bolded for you pretty much makes my point for me.

Go back to law school.
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Quote:

Very good post. There is a huge difference between "Riding Clubs" such as Christian Motorcyclist Association, your local Hog chapter, etc and 'Motorcycle Clubs", or MCs. Most MCs are of the 1% variety or in other words outlaw motorcycle gangs, such as Hells Angels, Banditos, Mongels, Cossacks, etc. The first set is harmless and are just people that enjoy riding together,etc. The second are ongoing criminal enterprises. In terms of the people swept up in this situation, if they are members of those two MCs (Banditos and Cossacks), I have no pity for them. If they aren't members or hangers on and were somehow there and had the poor judgment not to leave, I feel somewhat sorry for them, but poor decisions do have consequences. I do believe some of those charged are probably innocent, but as Mr. Dubi so aptly stated: Don't go to stupid places with stupid people doing stupid things." Or as my Dad used to tell me: "you are known by the company you keep."
I think you missed the part of this story where people wholly unaffiliated with outlaw motorcycle gangs (I.e., not Banditos or Cossacks or members of any 1%er MCs) were summarily rounded up and held under facially illegal $1MM bonds for weeks and months on end. That's a pretty big deal in my book, and it should be in yours, regardless of what your dad says.
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Quote:

So you are blaming the victim instead of the perpetrators of the injustice?

People should be free to live their life free from fear of an oppressive and unjust government. Everyone is responsible for their own choices and the government should be as well.
QFT

(He's also a lawyer, in case you're wondering . . .)
IDAGG
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Snow Monkey Ambassador said:


I think you missed the part of this story where people wholly unaffiliated with outlaw motorcycle gangs (I.e., not Banditos or Cossacks or members of any 1%er MCs) were summarily rounded up and held under facially illegal $1MM bonds for weeks and months on end. That's a pretty big deal in my book, and it should be in yours, regardless of what your dad says.
I actually agree with you on that part. And I have no idea how many people were rounded up that were just there because it sounded like a cool idea to hang out with some real motorcycle clubs, or were so naive that they didn't realize who they were having lunch with. To your point slapping them with $1M bails is wrong.

I will also reiterate, that the actual members of those two clubs know exactly what goes on in those clubs and I have no pity for them anymore than I would crips or bloods or any other street gang.
dubi
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Quote:

So you are blaming the victim instead of the perpetrators of the injustice?

I'm saying I would have avoided that restaurant on that particular day because I would have felt unsafe. I think most 50+ folks would have made the same decision by just driving through the parking lot.

I am not a lawyer and I agree the prosecutors were wrong to detain them indefinitely without cause.
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dubi said:

Quote:

So you are blaming the victim instead of the perpetrators of the injustice?

I'm saying I would have avoided that restaurant on that particular day because I would have felt unsafe. I think most 50+ folks would have made the same decision by just driving through the parking lot.

I am not a lawyer and I agree the prosecutors were wrong to detain them indefinitely without cause.

I completely agree with you on this, and I think avoiding it altogether is the only prudent action. As I've said many times in this thread, these people could/should have avoided the issues in the first place by simply not being there. The government trampling on their rights is wrong, though, whether they should have had more sense or not.
Build It
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One of my best memories with my cuz is from when we stopped in a bar in Kilgore. 100 plus banditos and us. We had a great time. I suppose we should have not gone in because potentially bad guys were in there? **** that! we had a lot of fun with those bikers. I'd do it again 20 plus years later.

munch96
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A $350 mill lawsuit was filed in Austin by one of those arrested.

http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Investigators-lied-in-court-about-Waco-shootout-10987766.php
Guitarsoup
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BigPuma
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DannyDuberstein
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That suit will get tossed like a midget at a biker convention.
Guitarsoup
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The Detective has apparently said under oath that he signed the arrest affidavits without knowledge that what was contained in the affidavit was truthful.
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DannyDuberstein said:

That suit will get tossed like a midget at a biker convention.
Why do you say this? On what grounds?
zip04
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I'm not reading through every page of this thread, but there are a lot of assumptions and misconceptions from what I have seen. As a fellow rider who was part of a Motorcycle Club for 3 years, not all clubs are bad. The MC community is completely different from what many people think or portray it as. Meetings like the one at Twin Peaks occur multiple times a month throughout every state in our nation. These meetings typically have 1% (outlaw) clubs present. However, that is not what these meetings are about. They take place for the clubs to share the following information:

1. Any changes or pending changes to the law (helmet law, lane splitting, etc.).
2. To discuss any occurrences of profiling (I have had many friends pulled over and searched simply for riding a Harley).
3. To discuss any upcoming events (poker runs, toys for tots runs, etc.) - which 95% of the time donate to a good charity. Which specific charity will be advertised prior to the event as well so you are aware. The other 5% of the time it is to raise money for medical bills. For instance, my club did about 20 runs throughout the country a year. All but one raised money for veteran, diabetes, etc. charities. The one that didn't was a run to raise money for one of our members who was battling cancer. He was given 6 months to live - 2 years ago.

Also, these meetings are meant to bring unity throughout the MC community to try and keep stuff like Twin Peaks from occurring.
DannyDuberstein
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But sometimes they end up shooting and stabbing each other.
45-70Ag
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350 million is as absurd as the dumb justice of the peace in Killeen who gave some guy a 4 billion dollar bond
 
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