quote:OK. So long as we hold the murderers more accountable than the police.quote:
One is murder. One is an alleged rights violation in the context of the worst mass murder in that city in a generation.
Yep, and both should be held accountable for their actions.
Gunfight at the Twin Peaks [Staff Warning on page 47]
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quote:What I'm saying is, the actions of the murderers are far worse than any alleged actions of the Waco Police. Murder is worse than million dollar bonds, sorry.quote:quote:OK. So long as we hold the murderers more accountable than the police.quote:
One is murder. One is an alleged rights violation in the context of the worst mass murder in that city in a generation.
Yep, and both should be held accountable for their actions.
What are you trying to say? The punishment for murder (and capital murder if it applies to this situation) are the most severe punishments the State has.
The murderers are responsible for their actions and the police/JP/DA are responsible for their actions.
but both are wrong...
quote:The murderers are more wrong than the police. SMH.
but both are wrong...
It is not and never should be ok to murder someone.
It is not and never should be ok to use your position of authority as an agent of the government to deprive someone of their liberty or other inalienable rights.
Both should be punished to the fullest extent of the law for each individual crime.
It is not and never should be ok to use your position of authority as an agent of the government to deprive someone of their liberty or other inalienable rights.
Both should be punished to the fullest extent of the law for each individual crime.
quote:
It is not and never should be ok to murder someone.
It is not and never should be ok to use your position of authority as an agent of the government to deprive someone of their liberty or other inalienable rights.
Both should be punished to the fullest extent of the law for each individual crime.
I need more blue stars!
quote:and at least one of those parties should know better than their actions. SMH-also.quote:The murderers are more wrong than the police. SMH.
but both are wrong...
quote:Maybe. But at least they didn't kill anybody.quote:and at least one of those parties should know better than their actions. SMH-also.quote:The murderers are more wrong than the police. SMH.
but both are wrong...
I hope the county starts out with the term "at least..." in their defense of their actions. That should go pretty far.
quote:It should. Murder trumps pretty much all else. Not many other crimes result in capital punishment these days.
I hope the county starts out with the term "at least..." in their defense of their actions. That should go pretty far.
quote:Your post goes without saying. You have made this same point with nearly every post you've made on this thread. Why do you feel the need?quote:What I'm saying is, the actions of the murderers are far worse than any alleged actions of the Waco Police. Murder is worse than million dollar bonds, sorry.quote:quote:OK. So long as we hold the murderers more accountable than the police.quote:
One is murder. One is an alleged rights violation in the context of the worst mass murder in that city in a generation.
Yep, and both should be held accountable for their actions.
What are you trying to say? The punishment for murder (and capital murder if it applies to this situation) are the most severe punishments the State has.
The murderers are responsible for their actions and the police/JP/DA are responsible for their actions.
Two wrongs don't make a right (except in this one case), yet what else can be the point of your persistent excuse making?
Most of us will never have an encounter with bikers; alone or in a group. They do not pose the threat to the public that a police force bent on ignoring the public's Constitutional rights. This is what a very select few on this thread refuse to acknowledge. NO ONE is excusing the thuggery that occurred that day, nor discounting the cumulative efforts of law enforcement, given the situation. But for whatever reason(s), liberties appear to have been taken and abuses seem to have occurred. That is what I am contending, and others who make their living studying the law and it's enforcement seem to agree.
Consequently, we are expressing a desire for transparency and accountability, while others admonish us for our impatience and/or cynicism. BFD!
Murder is bad, that's indisputable.
Participating in organized criminal activity and willfully supporting outlaw gangs is also very bad. That's the real issue here. We know that some bad dudes will be convicted of murder. It's the others that willfully created the culture, the environment, and the circumstances for murder that are going to define this event.
The narrative that a bunch of unknowing, completely innocent and naive citizens were randomly rounded up and incarcerated is far from the truth and defies any logical sense.
Are there some civil rights and procedural concerns? Did the local JP get a little over-zealous? Perhaps, but these are not your average bikers that were out for a casual Sunday lunch. Anybody perpetuating that myth, is very misinformed about this situation.
Participating in organized criminal activity and willfully supporting outlaw gangs is also very bad. That's the real issue here. We know that some bad dudes will be convicted of murder. It's the others that willfully created the culture, the environment, and the circumstances for murder that are going to define this event.
The narrative that a bunch of unknowing, completely innocent and naive citizens were randomly rounded up and incarcerated is far from the truth and defies any logical sense.
Are there some civil rights and procedural concerns? Did the local JP get a little over-zealous? Perhaps, but these are not your average bikers that were out for a casual Sunday lunch. Anybody perpetuating that myth, is very misinformed about this situation.
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quote:I had a long, well thought out reply to this sentiment, but suffice it to say that I disagree - and you should, too. Murder is wrong and murderers should be punished to the full extent of the law. But when you start arguing that it isn't the very pinnacle of wrong to allow the government to wholly ignore the rights of the citizens by and for whom it exists, you completely lose me.quote:It should. Murder trumps pretty much all else. Not many other crimes result in capital punishment these days.
I hope the county starts out with the term "at least..." in their defense of their actions. That should go pretty far.
The victims of murders are the dead people and their family and friends. The victims of a government that willfully ignores the rights of its people are it's people (every single solitary one of them) and society itself. There can be no "law and order" if the agents we've entrusted to uphold that law in order are allowed to ignore it. And honestly, I don't ever understand how this is so difficult for some people to comprehend, but it's ****ing FRIGHTENING to me.
Let's all be glad that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and so many other founders of this once-great nation weren't nearly as shortsighted as the posters on TexAgs.com.
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quote:Oh yeah. For sure. Abel, that rabblerouser, got what was coming to him for helping to create "the culture, the environment, and the circumstances for murder."
It's the others that willfully created the culture, the environment, and the circumstances for murder that are going to define this event.
quote:Can you do me a favor and quote a single example of this? Just one? You're good and well convinced that the strawman you're so gleefully setting on fire exists, so go ahead and show us. I'll wait.
Are there some civil rights and procedural concerns? Did the local JP get a little over-zealous? Perhaps, but these are not your average bikers that were out for a casual Sunday lunch. Anybody perpetuating that myth, is very misinformed about this situation.
Y'all keep spinning along ignoring the real issues and pulling stupid crap out of your asses . . . it's really furthering the dialogue.
quote:Sorry. I can't see a whole lot of wrong the government did that hasn't been taken care of. Government is made up of people, who react to awful situations the best they can. I've never seen more Monday morning quarterbacking over a law enforcement situation as this one. You people act like there were no murders here.quote:I had a long, well thought out reply to this sentiment, but suffice it to say that I disagree - and you should, too. Murder is wrong and murderers should be punished to the full extent of the law. But when you start arguing that it isn't the very pinnacle of wrong to allow the government to wholly ignore the rights of the citizens by and for who it exists, you completely lose me.quote:It should. Murder trumps pretty much all else. Not many other crimes result in capital punishment these days.
I hope the county starts out with the term "at least..." in their defense of their actions. That should go pretty far.
The victims of murders are the dead people and their family and friends. The victims of a government that willfully ignores the rights of its people are it's people (every single solitary one of them) and society itself. There can be no "law and order" if the agents we've entrusted to uphold that law in order are allowed to ignore it. And honestly, I don't ever understand how this is so difficult for some people to comprehend, but it's ****ing FRIGHTENING to me.
Let's all be glad that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and so many other founders of this once-great nation weren't nearly as shortsighted as the posters on TexAgs.com.
quote:If it defies any logical sense, why is Waco/McLennan not seeking the civil forfeiture of the vehicles of all 177+ people but instead are only seeking it from a small minority of people?
The narrative that a bunch of unknowing, completely innocent and naive citizens were randomly rounded up and incarcerated is far from the truth and defies any logical sense.
trig this statement has already been proven false. I have seen multiple stories of regular people just having a meeting that day.
The AP reviewed the 9 surveillance videos in the restaurant. With the exception of one person firing a gun on the patio those videos show NONE of those inside were part of the fight.
quote:
The narrative that a bunch of unknowing, completely innocent and naive citizens were randomly rounded up and incarcerated is far from the truth and defies any logical sense.
The AP reviewed the 9 surveillance videos in the restaurant. With the exception of one person firing a gun on the patio those videos show NONE of those inside were part of the fight.
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quote:If you can't see the wrong - despite the fact that it's pointed out to you over and over again by people with a far better understanding of Constitutional jurisprudence that you - then there's no reason to interact with you. You're being obtuse for the sake of obtuseness, or you're just not very bright. Either way, you're wrong.quote:Sorry. I can't see a whole lot of wrong the government did that hasn't been taken care of. Government is made up of people, who react to awful situations the best they can. I've never seen more Monday morning quarterbacking over a law enforcement situation as this one. You people act like there were no murders here.quote:I had a long, well thought out reply to this sentiment, but suffice it to say that I disagree - and you should, too. Murder is wrong and murderers should be punished to the full extent of the law. But when you start arguing that it isn't the very pinnacle of wrong to allow the government to wholly ignore the rights of the citizens by and for who it exists, you completely lose me.quote:It should. Murder trumps pretty much all else. Not many other crimes result in capital punishment these days.
I hope the county starts out with the term "at least..." in their defense of their actions. That should go pretty far.
The victims of murders are the dead people and their family and friends. The victims of a government that willfully ignores the rights of its people are it's people (every single solitary one of them) and society itself. There can be no "law and order" if the agents we've entrusted to uphold that law in order are allowed to ignore it. And honestly, I don't ever understand how this is so difficult for some people to comprehend, but it's ****ing FRIGHTENING to me.
Let's all be glad that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and so many other founders of this once-great nation weren't nearly as shortsighted as the posters on TexAgs.com.
And your last line is so incredibly laughable that I actually did laugh at my desk. You seem to be completely incapable of separating two distinct issues in your mind, and it makes me wonder how you could have graduated from kindergarten, much less Texas A&M University. What a joke.
quote:I've taken a lot of insults for my positions on this thread, thanks for dogpiling. But as this last article shows, position after position of the pro biker chorus continues to fall.quote:If you can't see the wrong - despite the fact that it's pointed out to you over and over again by people with a far better understanding of Constitutional jurisprudence that you - then there's no reason to interact with you. You're being obtuse for the sake of obtuseness, or you're just not very bright. Either way, you're wrong.quote:Sorry. I can't see a whole lot of wrong the government did that hasn't been taken care of. Government is made up of people, who react to awful situations the best they can. I've never seen more Monday morning quarterbacking over a law enforcement situation as this one. You people act like there were no murders here.quote:I had a long, well thought out reply to this sentiment, but suffice it to say that I disagree - and you should, too. Murder is wrong and murderers should be punished to the full extent of the law. But when you start arguing that it isn't the very pinnacle of wrong to allow the government to wholly ignore the rights of the citizens by and for who it exists, you completely lose me.quote:It should. Murder trumps pretty much all else. Not many other crimes result in capital punishment these days.
I hope the county starts out with the term "at least..." in their defense of their actions. That should go pretty far.
The victims of murders are the dead people and their family and friends. The victims of a government that willfully ignores the rights of its people are it's people (every single solitary one of them) and society itself. There can be no "law and order" if the agents we've entrusted to uphold that law in order are allowed to ignore it. And honestly, I don't ever understand how this is so difficult for some people to comprehend, but it's ****ing FRIGHTENING to me.
Let's all be glad that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and so many other founders of this once-great nation weren't nearly as shortsighted as the posters on TexAgs.com.
And your last line is so incredibly laughable that I actually did laugh at my desk. You seem to be completely incapable of separating two distinct issues in your mind, and it makes me wonder how you could have graduated from kindergarten, much less Texas A&M University. What a joke.
Let's wait and see what happens as we learn more. As my side continues to be proven right, I'll try and refrain from the junior high insults your side continues to indulge in.
quote:About as many as you have dished.
I've taken a lot of insults for my positions on this thread, thanks for dogpiling.
quote:Where? I've tried to maintain a very positive outlook on this thread, despite opposition.quote:About as many as you have dished.
I've taken a lot of insults for my positions on this thread, thanks for dogpiling.
quote:
trig this statement has already been proven false. I have seen multiple stories of regular people just having a meeting that day.
quote:
The narrative that a bunch of unknowing, completely innocent and naive citizens were randomly rounded up and incarcerated is far from the truth and defies any logical sense.
The AP reviewed the 9 surveillance videos in the restaurant. With the exception of one person firing a gun on the patio those videos show NONE of those inside were part of the fight.
They weren't charged with fighting, they were charged with participating in organized crime. "I support the Bandidos", funneling dirty money, setting an agenda to discuss territory, inviting another gang to get ambushed, etc.. All those thing are participating in organized crime whether one pulled a trigger or not. Moreover anybody with just about any level of involvement in a motorcycle club in Texas knows damn good and well not to be around The Cossacks or The Bandidos, especially if one of the two are somewhere not invited and the other is about to arrive.
Moreover, just because somebody claims to be completely innocent or their family claims their innocent doesn't mean a damn thing. All sorts of criminals lead double and secret lives.
In respect to the videos, do not pretend like you've seen any of the nine videos. They haven't been released to the public and only a very few have seen them. We have some information about one of the videos which was shown to members of the AP and we have some court testimony from a prosecutor about another video that shows the "Cossacks spreading out in sentry formation and reaching for weapons."
quote:quote:Oh yeah. For sure. Abel, that rabblerouser, got what was coming to him for helping to create "the culture, the environment, and the circumstances for murder."
It's the others that willfully created the culture, the environment, and the circumstances for murder that are going to define this event.
quote:Can you do me a favor and quote a single example of this? Just one? You're good and well convinced that the strawman you're so gleefully setting on fire exists, so go ahead and show us. I'll wait.
Are there some civil rights and procedural concerns? Did the local JP get a little over-zealous? Perhaps, but these are not your average bikers that were out for a casual Sunday lunch. Anybody perpetuating that myth, is very misinformed about this situation.
Y'all keep spinning along ignoring the real issues and pulling stupid crap out of your asses . . . it's really furthering the dialogue.
Every single piece of information that has been officially released points in this direction. I'm sorry if that contradicts whatever biker blog you read or if it hurts your feelings.
There are nine dead bodies, a video showing Cossacks in sentry formation and reaching for weapons, people wearing either known criminal gang patches or patches supporting known criminal gangs, a whole host of weapons discovered, official police statements, and 177 arrests made with probable cause.
It's not a straw man argument to take the side of the known evidence at this time. Moreover, you completely misused the term "straw man". Even if the known evidence turns out to be inaccurate and my opinion proven completely wrong, it's still not a straw man.
Ok, so a probable cause affidavit is good enough for a United States court of law but not for you?
Prosector testimony about one of the videos isn't acceptable to you?
Official police statements don't meet your standards?
There's nothing in the world that is going to convince you at this point. My only advice to you is to just wait until the indictments and the trials are made public and examine the results at that point.
Prosector testimony about one of the videos isn't acceptable to you?
Official police statements don't meet your standards?
There's nothing in the world that is going to convince you at this point. My only advice to you is to just wait until the indictments and the trials are made public and examine the results at that point.
To be fair, dead people don't really care much about justice, and aren't worried about much.
Those still living under a tyrannical government that declares probable cause before searching for evidence DO have something to worry about.
The branches of government need to be pared and separated.
Those still living under a tyrannical government that declares probable cause before searching for evidence DO have something to worry about.
The branches of government need to be pared and separated.
quote:The relatives of the dead still care about justice. Murder can't be allowed to stand.
To be fair, dead people don't really care much about justice, and aren't worried about much.
Those still living under a tyrannical government that declares probable cause before searching for evidence DO have something to worry about.
The branches of government need to be pared and separated.
And it won't.
However, some logic here suggests they knew they were going to a deadly fight, and that's not exactly murder. Maybe it was all self defense...
However, some logic here suggests they knew they were going to a deadly fight, and that's not exactly murder. Maybe it was all self defense...
Stop feeding the technotroll so that he can go back to the general board.
Not sure what your problem is, but we could do without you trying to stir things up. This makes the second time I've had to flag one of your comments toward me on this thread.
quote:Seriously? Is there no limit to the straw-men you'll throw up? It's really hard to take you seriously when you continue to do this.quote:
Murder can't be allowed to stand.
quote:Strawman? 9 people died.quote:Seriously? Is there no limit to the straw-men you'll throw up? It's really hard to take you seriously when you continue to do this.quote:
Murder can't be allowed to stand.
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