FtWorthHorn said:

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BowSowy said:

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joerobert_pete06 said:

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I found myself fast forwarding through several portions of that episode. I feel like most of that was unnecessary and put there for an alternative purpose.

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This reminds me of the episode that Mythic Quest has every season. One episode that tells a bit of backstory but expands on it in a grand way. Sure, it's largely irrelevant to the overarching story, and could've just been a couple of scenes. But it expands on that and tells a great story. I knew the gay aspect of that story would not be well received here, but I think that was a beautiful story of a love grown old.

---

It will not surprise you to know that the author of "Backstory!" the one about CW, is...Craig Mazin.

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aTmAg said:

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Robert C. Christian said:

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aTmAg said:

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FtWorthHorn said:

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aTmAg said:

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FtWorthHorn said:

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One addition to this...fine discourse is that I don't think Bill being gay is tangential/a random addition. Bill was deeply, profoundly alone. And that didn't just start with the zombie outbreak. Was being a closeted gay man part of what drove him to be a prepper, as he didn't feel connected to society?

Who knows, but he thought he had made his peace with his solitary lifestyle. In fact, he was almost giddy in his post-outbreak preparation. He seemed to be enjoying his life watching the traps work. But once another person came into his life, it became clear it was empty because it didn't have a purpose (hence the letter).

You could tell a similar story if it's a woman, but there are so many differences. First, it's far less threatening when the new person first arrives. And second, you lose the built-in shorthand of the isolation that we understand when we learn Bill has never been with a man. That short conversation tells you about a lifetime of isolation.

---

If I remember correctly, Bill mentioned or implied had a woman prior. He also had pictures of family and stuff. So it wasn't a lifetime of isolation.

---

It absolutely was. He said he had been with a few women. And he lived with his mother, for at least some of his adult life.

Read that back and try to think through what his life was like.

---

My grandmother spent her last few years living with my parents. That sort of thing happens all the time. That statement alone doesn't necessarily mean a life of isolation. Now clearly he was alone when the outbreak happened and for years after. But not any more than people all across the globe in that world.

But I think the points you bring up would be more effective with a woman companion than a man. Bill clearly felt like he needed to protect Frank which is why he told Frank to contact Joel when he thought he (Bill) was dying. That would have been even more profound if Frank was a female or a kid. The way it played out in the show fell flat for me. Since, Frank was already out alone in the wilderness for years. Clearly he could already handle himself pretty well.

The point about being threatening when Frank first arrives was basically moot. They made that point far better by the raiders (and Joel predicting it).

---

Frank wasn't alone by himself for years though. He had been at the Baltimore QZ and left with 10 people. Not sure how he was after the immediate start but it doesn't seem like Frank was making it on his own.

---

Baltimore to Boston is over a 7 hour drive. Who knows how long it would be on foot while trying to avoid the infected and raiders. He outlived 9 other people on the trip and looked to be uninjured. I'd say that he was doing pretty damned well for himself.

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aznaggiegirl07 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Robert C. Christian said:

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aTmAg said:

---

FtWorthHorn said:

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aTmAg said:

---

FtWorthHorn said:

---

One addition to this...fine discourse is that I don't think Bill being gay is tangential/a random addition. Bill was deeply, profoundly alone. And that didn't just start with the zombie outbreak. Was being a closeted gay man part of what drove him to be a prepper, as he didn't feel connected to society?

Who knows, but he thought he had made his peace with his solitary lifestyle. In fact, he was almost giddy in his post-outbreak preparation. He seemed to be enjoying his life watching the traps work. But once another person came into his life, it became clear it was empty because it didn't have a purpose (hence the letter).

You could tell a similar story if it's a woman, but there are so many differences. First, it's far less threatening when the new person first arrives. And second, you lose the built-in shorthand of the isolation that we understand when we learn Bill has never been with a man. That short conversation tells you about a lifetime of isolation.

---

If I remember correctly, Bill mentioned or implied had a woman prior. He also had pictures of family and stuff. So it wasn't a lifetime of isolation.

---

It absolutely was. He said he had been with a few women. And he lived with his mother, for at least some of his adult life.

Read that back and try to think through what his life was like.

---

My grandmother spent her last few years living with my parents. That sort of thing happens all the time. That statement alone doesn't necessarily mean a life of isolation. Now clearly he was alone when the outbreak happened and for years after. But not any more than people all across the globe in that world.

But I think the points you bring up would be more effective with a woman companion than a man. Bill clearly felt like he needed to protect Frank which is why he told Frank to contact Joel when he thought he (Bill) was dying. That would have been even more profound if Frank was a female or a kid. The way it played out in the show fell flat for me. Since, Frank was already out alone in the wilderness for years. Clearly he could already handle himself pretty well.

The point about being threatening when Frank first arrives was basically moot. They made that point far better by the raiders (and Joel predicting it).

---

Frank wasn't alone by himself for years though. He had been at the Baltimore QZ and left with 10 people. Not sure how he was after the immediate start but it doesn't seem like Frank was making it on his own.

---

Baltimore to Boston is over a 7 hour drive. Who knows how long it would be on foot while trying to avoid the infected and raiders. He outlived 9 other people on the trip and looked to be uninjured. I'd say that he was doing pretty damned well for himself.

---

He said he hadn't eaten in two days....

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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AggieOO said:

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Quote:

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If this show instead decided to interject an anti-abortion story line and showed a dismembered aborted baby, you would be all over here complaining how that had no place in this show. And you would be right.. Because neither have a place in a zombie show.

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are you really trying to compare an aborted fetus to a gay couple? these two things are not even remotely the same. And if you can't understand why, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Quote:

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People don't watch zombie shows to watch bearded middle aged men go down on each other. We wouldn't want to see a fat middle aged hetro couple go down on each other either.

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No, most people don't want to watch a fat middle aged couple either, but if that had happened, there would be zero complaints because it would be a hetero couple. Your argument holds zero water. The disgust around here is 100% because it was a gay couple.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't "disgusted" by the episode at all, and I definitely would have been just as disappointed if it was a hetero couple. It's mostly about expectations for me - if I wanted to watch a love story I wouldn't be watching what's been sold as a zombie apocalypse show.

Would have much preferred an episode where it mostly focuses on their survival tactics which I thought were really interesting from what we saw. How often were they attacked? In 20 years did anyone actually get inside the fence? Lots of more interesting avenues they could have taken in my opinion. It'll probably hold up better as a part of the larger season, but it felt really out of place to me.

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beagle2009 said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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AggieOO said:

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Quote:

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If this show instead decided to interject an anti-abortion story line and showed a dismembered aborted baby, you would be all over here complaining how that had no place in this show. And you would be right.. Because neither have a place in a zombie show.

---

are you really trying to compare an aborted fetus to a gay couple? these two things are not even remotely the same. And if you can't understand why, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Quote:

---

People don't watch zombie shows to watch bearded middle aged men go down on each other. We wouldn't want to see a fat middle aged hetro couple go down on each other either.

---

No, most people don't want to watch a fat middle aged couple either, but if that had happened, there would be zero complaints because it would be a hetero couple. Your argument holds zero water. The disgust around here is 100% because it was a gay couple.

---

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't "disgusted" by the episode at all, and I definitely would have been just as disappointed if it was a hetero couple. It's mostly about expectations for me - if I wanted to watch a love story I wouldn't be watching what's been sold as a zombie apocalypse show.

Would have much preferred an episode where it mostly focuses on their survival tactics which I thought were really interesting from what we saw. How often were they attacked? In 20 years did anyone actually get inside the fence? Lots of more interesting avenues they could have taken in my opinion. It'll probably hold up better as a part of the larger season, but it felt really out of place to me.

---

That's the thing, this hasn't been sold as only a zombie apocalypse show. The show runners have clearly stated this is just as much a story about the human connection, how to deal with loss/grief, etc.

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AggieOO said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

beagle2009 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

AggieOO said:

---

Quote:

---

If this show instead decided to interject an anti-abortion story line and showed a dismembered aborted baby, you would be all over here complaining how that had no place in this show. And you would be right.. Because neither have a place in a zombie show.

---

are you really trying to compare an aborted fetus to a gay couple? these two things are not even remotely the same. And if you can't understand why, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Quote:

---

People don't watch zombie shows to watch bearded middle aged men go down on each other. We wouldn't want to see a fat middle aged hetro couple go down on each other either.

---

No, most people don't want to watch a fat middle aged couple either, but if that had happened, there would be zero complaints because it would be a hetero couple. Your argument holds zero water. The disgust around here is 100% because it was a gay couple.

---

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't "disgusted" by the episode at all, and I definitely would have been just as disappointed if it was a hetero couple. It's mostly about expectations for me - if I wanted to watch a love story I wouldn't be watching what's been sold as a zombie apocalypse show.

Would have much preferred an episode where it mostly focuses on their survival tactics which I thought were really interesting from what we saw. How often were they attacked? In 20 years did anyone actually get inside the fence? Lots of more interesting avenues they could have taken in my opinion. It'll probably hold up better as a part of the larger season, but it felt really out of place to me.

---

That's the thing, this hasn't been sold as only a zombie apocalypse show. The show runners have clearly stated this is just as much a story about the human connection, how to deal with loss/grief, etc.

---

I may need to change my expectations, but at the end of the day it's a show based a zombie apocalypse. So when an episode more like Pride and Prejudice breaks out it's going to be a little jarring when it seems like there were a lot more unique and interesting things they could have done. Honestly felt more like an episode of Station 11 (which I loved), but just my opinion on why it didn't land for me. Like I said, might enjoy it more after seeing if/how it fits with the rest of the season.

---

yeah, things that are more unique and interesting, like killing zombies or arguing with other people. we've never seen that before in zombie shows. This episode WAS the unique thing. I'll leave interesting out b/c for a good chunk of the people posting here, they obviously didn't find it interesting.

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aTmAg said:

---

aznaggiegirl07 said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Robert C. Christian said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

FtWorthHorn said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

FtWorthHorn said:

---

One addition to this...fine discourse is that I don't think Bill being gay is tangential/a random addition. Bill was deeply, profoundly alone. And that didn't just start with the zombie outbreak. Was being a closeted gay man part of what drove him to be a prepper, as he didn't feel connected to society?

Who knows, but he thought he had made his peace with his solitary lifestyle. In fact, he was almost giddy in his post-outbreak preparation. He seemed to be enjoying his life watching the traps work. But once another person came into his life, it became clear it was empty because it didn't have a purpose (hence the letter).

You could tell a similar story if it's a woman, but there are so many differences. First, it's far less threatening when the new person first arrives. And second, you lose the built-in shorthand of the isolation that we understand when we learn Bill has never been with a man. That short conversation tells you about a lifetime of isolation.

---

If I remember correctly, Bill mentioned or implied had a woman prior. He also had pictures of family and stuff. So it wasn't a lifetime of isolation.

---

It absolutely was. He said he had been with a few women. And he lived with his mother, for at least some of his adult life.

Read that back and try to think through what his life was like.

---

My grandmother spent her last few years living with my parents. That sort of thing happens all the time. That statement alone doesn't necessarily mean a life of isolation. Now clearly he was alone when the outbreak happened and for years after. But not any more than people all across the globe in that world.

But I think the points you bring up would be more effective with a woman companion than a man. Bill clearly felt like he needed to protect Frank which is why he told Frank to contact Joel when he thought he (Bill) was dying. That would have been even more profound if Frank was a female or a kid. The way it played out in the show fell flat for me. Since, Frank was already out alone in the wilderness for years. Clearly he could already handle himself pretty well.

The point about being threatening when Frank first arrives was basically moot. They made that point far better by the raiders (and Joel predicting it).

---

Frank wasn't alone by himself for years though. He had been at the Baltimore QZ and left with 10 people. Not sure how he was after the immediate start but it doesn't seem like Frank was making it on his own.

---

Baltimore to Boston is over a 7 hour drive. Who knows how long it would be on foot while trying to avoid the infected and raiders. He outlived 9 other people on the trip and looked to be uninjured. I'd say that he was doing pretty damned well for himself.

---

He said he hadn't eaten in two days....

---

And then said, it didn't sound like much, and he was right about that. He was almost at his destination. He was nearly home free after who knows how many weeks of travelling on foot.

---

Prosperdick said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

AggieOO said:

---

Quote:

---

If this show instead decided to interject an anti-abortion story line and showed a dismembered aborted baby, you would be all over here complaining how that had no place in this show. And you would be right.. Because neither have a place in a zombie show.

---

are you really trying to compare an aborted fetus to a gay couple? these two things are not even remotely the same. And if you can't understand why, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Quote:

---

People don't watch zombie shows to watch bearded middle aged men go down on each other. We wouldn't want to see a fat middle aged hetro couple go down on each other either.

---

No, most people don't want to watch a fat middle aged couple either, but if that had happened, there would be zero complaints because it would be a hetero couple. Your argument holds zero water. The disgust around here is 100% because it was a gay couple.

---

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't "disgusted" by the episode at all, and I definitely would have been just as disappointed if it was a hetero couple. It's mostly about expectations for me - if I wanted to watch a love story I wouldn't be watching what's been sold as a zombie apocalypse show.

Would have much preferred an episode where it mostly focuses on their survival tactics which I thought were really interesting from what we saw. How often were they attacked? In 20 years did anyone actually get inside the fence? Lots of more interesting avenues they could have taken in my opinion. It'll probably hold up better as a part of the larger season, but it felt really out of place to me.

---

Agree. And why the hell was Bill standing in the middle of the street shooting at people? Seemed pretty stupid for what otherwise seemed like a smart guy,

---

You know who was REALLY stupid...the raiders. They had no idea how many armed men were living behind that VERY well fortified and booby-trapped fence. Dude, cut your losses, leave the guys behind that are on fire and go find another house to raid. But no, they just kept shooting.

And yes, that was very irresponsible of Bill to be out in the open shooting back at them. They had not breached anything. You hold back and wait to see if they're able to breach (small chance) and if they do you start to pick them off behind a structure. What you don't do is engage out in the open. Where did he learn to train, the British Redcoat's school of easy targets?

Survivalist, my ass.

---

LCE said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

aznaggiegirl07 said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Robert C. Christian said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

FtWorthHorn said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

FtWorthHorn said:

---

One addition to this...fine discourse is that I don't think Bill being gay is tangential/a random addition. Bill was deeply, profoundly alone. And that didn't just start with the zombie outbreak. Was being a closeted gay man part of what drove him to be a prepper, as he didn't feel connected to society?

Who knows, but he thought he had made his peace with his solitary lifestyle. In fact, he was almost giddy in his post-outbreak preparation. He seemed to be enjoying his life watching the traps work. But once another person came into his life, it became clear it was empty because it didn't have a purpose (hence the letter).

You could tell a similar story if it's a woman, but there are so many differences. First, it's far less threatening when the new person first arrives. And second, you lose the built-in shorthand of the isolation that we understand when we learn Bill has never been with a man. That short conversation tells you about a lifetime of isolation.

---

If I remember correctly, Bill mentioned or implied had a woman prior. He also had pictures of family and stuff. So it wasn't a lifetime of isolation.

---

It absolutely was. He said he had been with a few women. And he lived with his mother, for at least some of his adult life.

Read that back and try to think through what his life was like.

---

My grandmother spent her last few years living with my parents. That sort of thing happens all the time. That statement alone doesn't necessarily mean a life of isolation. Now clearly he was alone when the outbreak happened and for years after. But not any more than people all across the globe in that world.

But I think the points you bring up would be more effective with a woman companion than a man. Bill clearly felt like he needed to protect Frank which is why he told Frank to contact Joel when he thought he (Bill) was dying. That would have been even more profound if Frank was a female or a kid. The way it played out in the show fell flat for me. Since, Frank was already out alone in the wilderness for years. Clearly he could already handle himself pretty well.

The point about being threatening when Frank first arrives was basically moot. They made that point far better by the raiders (and Joel predicting it).

---

Frank wasn't alone by himself for years though. He had been at the Baltimore QZ and left with 10 people. Not sure how he was after the immediate start but it doesn't seem like Frank was making it on his own.

---

Baltimore to Boston is over a 7 hour drive. Who knows how long it would be on foot while trying to avoid the infected and raiders. He outlived 9 other people on the trip and looked to be uninjured. I'd say that he was doing pretty damned well for himself.

---

He said he hadn't eaten in two days....

---

And then said, it didn't sound like much, and he was right about that. He was almost at his destination. He was nearly home free after who knows how many weeks of travelling on foot.

---

Doing pretty damn well and almost at his destination?

He was trapped in a hole with no way out and hadn't eaten in 2 days. Opposite of doing damn well.

---

aTmAg said:

---

Prosperdick said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

AggieOO said:

---

Quote:

---

If this show instead decided to interject an anti-abortion story line and showed a dismembered aborted baby, you would be all over here complaining how that had no place in this show. And you would be right.. Because neither have a place in a zombie show.

---

are you really trying to compare an aborted fetus to a gay couple? these two things are not even remotely the same. And if you can't understand why, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Quote:

---

People don't watch zombie shows to watch bearded middle aged men go down on each other. We wouldn't want to see a fat middle aged hetro couple go down on each other either.

---

No, most people don't want to watch a fat middle aged couple either, but if that had happened, there would be zero complaints because it would be a hetero couple. Your argument holds zero water. The disgust around here is 100% because it was a gay couple.

---

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't "disgusted" by the episode at all, and I definitely would have been just as disappointed if it was a hetero couple. It's mostly about expectations for me - if I wanted to watch a love story I wouldn't be watching what's been sold as a zombie apocalypse show.

Would have much preferred an episode where it mostly focuses on their survival tactics which I thought were really interesting from what we saw. How often were they attacked? In 20 years did anyone actually get inside the fence? Lots of more interesting avenues they could have taken in my opinion. It'll probably hold up better as a part of the larger season, but it felt really out of place to me.

---

Agree. And why the hell was Bill standing in the middle of the street shooting at people? Seemed pretty stupid for what otherwise seemed like a smart guy,

---

You know who was REALLY stupid...the raiders. They had no idea how many armed men were living behind that VERY well fortified and booby-trapped fence. Dude, cut your losses, leave the guys behind that are on fire and go find another house to raid. But no, they just kept shooting.

And yes, that was very irresponsible of Bill to be out in the open shooting back at them. They had not breached anything. You hold back and wait to see if they're able to breach (small chance) and if they do you start to pick them off behind a structure. What you don't do is engage out in the open. Where did he learn to train, the British Redcoat's school of easy targets?

Survivalist, my ass.

---

My assumption is that the raiders already raided all the easier targets. They had big ass wire cutters with them, which implies they have seen this place before. They just didn't realize how fortified it really was.

---

Prosperdick said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Prosperdick said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

AggieOO said:

---

Quote:

---

If this show instead decided to interject an anti-abortion story line and showed a dismembered aborted baby, you would be all over here complaining how that had no place in this show. And you would be right.. Because neither have a place in a zombie show.

---

are you really trying to compare an aborted fetus to a gay couple? these two things are not even remotely the same. And if you can't understand why, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Quote:

---

People don't watch zombie shows to watch bearded middle aged men go down on each other. We wouldn't want to see a fat middle aged hetro couple go down on each other either.

---

No, most people don't want to watch a fat middle aged couple either, but if that had happened, there would be zero complaints because it would be a hetero couple. Your argument holds zero water. The disgust around here is 100% because it was a gay couple.

---

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't "disgusted" by the episode at all, and I definitely would have been just as disappointed if it was a hetero couple. It's mostly about expectations for me - if I wanted to watch a love story I wouldn't be watching what's been sold as a zombie apocalypse show.

Would have much preferred an episode where it mostly focuses on their survival tactics which I thought were really interesting from what we saw. How often were they attacked? In 20 years did anyone actually get inside the fence? Lots of more interesting avenues they could have taken in my opinion. It'll probably hold up better as a part of the larger season, but it felt really out of place to me.

---

Agree. And why the hell was Bill standing in the middle of the street shooting at people? Seemed pretty stupid for what otherwise seemed like a smart guy,

---

You know who was REALLY stupid...the raiders. They had no idea how many armed men were living behind that VERY well fortified and booby-trapped fence. Dude, cut your losses, leave the guys behind that are on fire and go find another house to raid. But no, they just kept shooting.

And yes, that was very irresponsible of Bill to be out in the open shooting back at them. They had not breached anything. You hold back and wait to see if they're able to breach (small chance) and if they do you start to pick them off behind a structure. What you don't do is engage out in the open. Where did he learn to train, the British Redcoat's school of easy targets?

Survivalist, my ass.

---

My assumption is that the raiders already raided all the easier targets. They had big ass wire cutters with them, which implies they have seen this place before. They just didn't realize how fortified it really was.

---

Point still stands, when your teammates are on fire and you have no idea what else is behind the fence, you cut your losses and retreat yet there they were, engaged in a firefight. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face...

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drmwvr said:

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AggieOO said:

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i assumed the hole was covered somehow, although I didn't see anything down at the bottom when Frank was in there.

---

When they showed the montage of Bill prepping the property, there was a shot of him where he was covering what I assumed was a hole in the ground with chicken wire and mud (the camera angle was from the bottom of the hole looking out). Best bet is that this foreshadowed the hole that Frank fell into.

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Urban Ag said:

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Knuckle dragging F16 conservative here and I was, believe it or not, genuinely moved by the episode. Might sound corny but I couldn't help but be reminded of my own life. My wife and I literally stumbled in to each other at a time when we were recent A&M grads, single, lonely, and it just took off there. 25+ years later our lives remain so completely intertwined we'd be lost without each other. I was hospitalized for a week in August and she spent every night sleeping on that crappy "kinda bed" in my room. I can't even find words for what that level of kindness from the one you love feels like. That was my take away. Very relatable story telling.

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