Dr. Watson said:

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Bobcat06 said:

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Very average superhero movie

As a history buff, it bothered me how they handled Erich Ludendorff. Ludendorff was a real general in WW1, and he was pretty badass, conquering fortresses on his own. After the war, he became one of Hitler's biggest critics before his death.

In the movie he's a cartoon character who pals around with Dr Poison and is easily killed WW.

I get how they are trying to demonstrate WW's naive view that all men are under his evil spell, but why not just create a fake general instead?

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Ludendorff became one of Hitler's biggest critics after supporting his Munich putsch and holding many of the same racial beliefs as Hitler throughout his life. Yes, he was a badass in war, but a massive ******* as well.

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Wasn't expecting this on a comic book thread.

Edit - Wrong forum

AliasMan02 said:

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For one, the DCEU is never gonna touch "the presence." No way.

Secondly, according to the DCEU, the Greek gods were actual gods. Zeus created mankind. We saw that Ares can literally do almost anything in the material world: mind control/manipulation, insane telekinesis, transformation, energy projection, flight (I think he flew...), etc.

Yes, Darkseid is even more powerful, but then what? What about WW's next solo film? What about the future of the DCEU? (And, it's worth noting that the guys in charge like Geoff Johns handled the introduction of Darkseid pretty poorly last time he had the chance with the relaunch of Justice League and the New 52.)

Maybe Marvel faces the same issue with Thanos, but I don't really think so. He's not a being of infinite power and needs the stones to achieve his goals. And even if he is the ultimate that can never be topped, they've spent 15 or whatever films getting there, not introduced and defeated within the first handful.

Pace and escalation are important, and DC's biggest problems.

Man of Steel - Introduced a planet-killing villain and alien invasion. Introduced and killed Zod.

BvS - Introduced Batman and Wonder Woman in what was essentially a Superman film. Introduced and killed Doomsday. Introduced and defeated/imprisoned Luthor. Death of Superman, the most iconic and pivotal moment in all of DC lore, in only the SECOND DCEU film.

Suicide Squad - Introduced magic, but not really a scale issue. Introduced Joker in a non-Batman film which was weird. Overall this movie doesn't have an escalation or pace problem except for the fact that zero of the characters had ever been on screen before.

Wonder Woman - Gods exist. Established WW as a god. She kills the only other remaining god.

That's all incredibly haphazard, in my estimation.

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All of the human god pantheons exist. Once Shazam and Black Adam get introduced this will be more obvious because Captain Marvel (Shazam) gets his powers from Solomon (yes that Solomon), Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury while Black Adam gets his powers from the Egyptian Gods or from Shu, Heru, Amon, Zehuti, Aton, and Mehen. Black Adam was supposed to be a hero like Shazam so the Egyptian gods are not inherently evil.

Dwayne Johnson has been cast to play Black Adam.

What I think some people need to realize is that the ancient god pantheons are all arrogant as hell and think that it is they who have real power so they like to make claims and boast about things that they never actually did. Darkseid (also a god but one of the New Gods) routinely proves to them that they do not and The Spectre (aka the physical manifestation of The wrath of God or the Presence) regularly slaps them down.

In the DCEU it will be difficult to explain all of this, but all they really have to do is say that a Supreme Being does exist and its "Presence" is felt everywhere. This solve the "god" issue.

Again, think of the gods not as actual gods but rather ultra powerful beings. It makes more sense this way.

Overall I thought the movie was good. A bit basic in terms of a super hero movie, but good. Gadot is insanely beautiful, and in my opinion she played Wonder Woman really well. It was badass to see her storm No Man's Land. I hope they do a sequel, which I'm sure they will.

That being said, I honestly found myself much more interested in the beginning part on Themyscira. The shot where Robin Wright kills those three dudes with the arrows was the coolest shot in the movie IMO. All those warriors were badass. I kind of wish the movie had been set there, and been an internal debate about the politics of helping/interfering humanity/the the war, culminating in a huge fight with the Germans tracking Pine (maybe lead by the main bad guy), and then at the end Wonder Woman going with Pine to help humanity.

Either way, I was fine with it overall. I hope that she can help carry the Justice League movie.

Weekend actuals adjusted UP to $103M.

Dr. Watson said:

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Bobcat06 said:

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Very average superhero movie

As a history buff, it bothered me how they handled Erich Ludendorff. Ludendorff was a real general in WW1, and he was pretty badass, conquering fortresses on his own. After the war, he became one of Hitler's biggest critics before his death.

In the movie he's a cartoon character who pals around with Dr Poison and is easily killed WW.

I get how they are trying to demonstrate WW's naive view that all men are under his evil spell, but why not just create a fake general instead?

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Ludendorff became one of Hitler's biggest critics after supporting his Munich putsch and holding many of the same racial beliefs as Hitler throughout his life. Yes, he was a badass in war, but a massive ******* as well.

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I don't disagree.

Ludendorff sounds like a ******* to deal with in real life, but he's a fascinating historical character. Everything from capturing Liege, his Odin cult, blaming the German defeat on Leninism, running for president against Hidenberg. That's a very unique and interesting person.

Instead, the movie portrayed his as a caricature who took steroids and plotted with Dr. Poison. My point was if you want to use a cartoonish German general as the villain, why not create a fictional one like Johann Schmidt (Red Skull)?

AgMarauder04 said:

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As a regular politics baord poster, you recognize the irony of calling this place an echo chamber, yes?

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Shoot the messenger when you can not refute a 93 Rotten Tomatoes rating, right?

CrazyDayDuck said:

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AgMarauder04 said:

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As a regular politics baord poster, you recognize the irony of calling this place an echo chamber, yes?

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Shoot the messenger when you can not refute a 93 Rotten Tomatoes rating, right?

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Just when they can't understand one.

Bobcat06 said:

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Very average superhero movie

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I can respect your honesty.

Unlike those that give the movie a "Meh" rating and then deny it because they "paid 14 dollars" to see the movie.

But we both know this not an average Super Hero movie ... now don't we?

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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I've never seen anyone gloat about a RT score so much in my life.

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Probably because it proves Zombie and me are right.

cone said:

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refute?

like groupthink is supposed to be gospel

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So now film critics are nothing more than "Group Think"?

cone said:

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well yeah

this was a good movie not great

maybe all super hero movies are on a curve

this wasn't iron man, though

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Iron Man and The Dark Knight were both greatness.

So was Wonder Woman.

You do not get a 93 on RT by merely being good. Nor do you get 223 mil globally in the opening weekend by merely being good.

CrazyDayDuck said:

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Bobcat06 said:

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Very average superhero movie

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I can respect your honesty.

Unlike those that give the movie a "Meh" rating and then deny it because they "paid 14 dollars" to see the movie.

But we both know this not an average Super Hero movie ... now don't we?

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You have this weird fixation that anyone who doesn't think this was the greatest superhero film ever somehow thought it was "meh" or disliked it.

Folks on here have been overwhelmingly positive and almost everyone has said they really enjoyed it. People disagree about films on here all the time, sometimes dramatically so, but for some reason anyone who doesn't think this is a perfect film has some sort of agenda.

That's like, your opinion man.

CrazyDayDuck said:

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cone said:

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well yeah

this was a good movie not great

maybe all super hero movies are on a curve

this wasn't iron man, though

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Iron Man and The Dark Knight were both greatness.

So was Wonder Woman.

You do not get a 93 on RT by merely being good. Nor do you get 223 mil globally in the opening weekend by merely being good.

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I'm going go disagree here. The solid core of fanboys are changing the way movies are rated in my estimation. And it made that much money because the rest of the movies out are dregs. Critics can be right in giving a movie a poor review and yet it still have great returns.

The war basically ended when he died.

Geez, Warner Bros...

http://io9.gizmodo.com/wonder-womans-most-fantastic-scene-nearly-didnt-get-mad-1795811939

AgMarauder04 said:

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The war basically ended when he died.

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The war was ending anyway. It was only him that was trying to keep it going.

Your attempt to derail a pretty common thought fails. "He's the only keeping it going" is a reach, at best.

BigTimeAlum said:

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I'm not sure how so many of you really missed Ares impact. Wonder woman thought he was source of war. He wasn't. He explained that to her and she explained that again in her closing dialogue. War was in the hearts of men. As far as the reaction of the German soldiers after Ares' death, of course if you're in the presence of the death of the god of war, you're probably going to have a little bit of hate lifted off of your heart.

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We get it. It's just remarkably inconsistent.

- Diana thinks Ares is the cause of war.
- Ares explains that he didn't compel men to war. They're not under his control. He just whispers ways they COULD kill each other and the natural wickedness of men takes over.
- Ares is killed and the Germans wake up out of a daze. They were trying to kill Diana's team moments before but then suddenly are literally hugging it out.

Do you not see the inconsistency in a core narrative there?

The inconsistency of the hug is one of the weak parts in a third act that stumbles a bit. Once that battle ends, the war needs to end, and they just didn't execute that particular part well.

cone said:

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also David Thewlis in armor was really f'ing stupid

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Yup. That was one role I thought was terribly miscast. If they were going to do the armor thing at the end, a better actor could have been found.

Interesting read on superhero villains, the Joker, and Wonder Woman:

***Wonder Woman SPOILERS***

https://filmschoolrejects.com/dark-knight-broke-superhero-movie-villains/