Just joining to see that episode sort of emotionally blindsided my wife and I, was definitely not expecting that. Halfway through my wife was even like "isn't this a zombie show based on a video game? what happened to that?"
*** THE LAST OF US *** (Non-Gamer Thread)
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Last: 1 yr ago by jokershady
now that we are done with the question of whether the show deliberately pushed bull**** agendas and gratuitous gay sex scenes, here's another interesting thought:
Bill didnt learn a damned thing from the supposed love of his life.
I didnt really think about it that much during the show, but my wife and i did agree and say out loud Bill should not have killed himself too - there is always someone you can help, so suicide never made sense.
We got the euthanasia. We did not get the suicide.
But what Bill did was just as selfish as he had lived his whole life. It didnt make him understand life or love, it was just another possession to him, and one so selfishly important to him that when it was gone he didnt want to try to do any good for anyone else.
Bill never wanted to fix anything up. Never wanted visitors or friends. He never learned anything. He died in the most selfish way possible.
Another question is whether the writers even appreciated this, or were too narcissistic and selfish themselves to even consider it?
this article, which i dont fully agree with, did express this point:
https://thefederalist.com/2023/01/30/hbos-the-last-of-us-is-wrong-assisted-suicide-is-not-incredibly-romantic/
If the writers of "The Last of Us" and the characters they created truly understood love, they might have considered a different road. By sacrificially laying down their own desires instead of selfishly taking their lives, Bill and Frank could have provided friendship to Joel and Ellie who needed companionship as much as they needed a truck and showers and literally helped save the world.
Instead, they killed that possibility, and called it good.
Bill didnt learn a damned thing from the supposed love of his life.
I didnt really think about it that much during the show, but my wife and i did agree and say out loud Bill should not have killed himself too - there is always someone you can help, so suicide never made sense.
We got the euthanasia. We did not get the suicide.
But what Bill did was just as selfish as he had lived his whole life. It didnt make him understand life or love, it was just another possession to him, and one so selfishly important to him that when it was gone he didnt want to try to do any good for anyone else.
Bill never wanted to fix anything up. Never wanted visitors or friends. He never learned anything. He died in the most selfish way possible.
Another question is whether the writers even appreciated this, or were too narcissistic and selfish themselves to even consider it?
this article, which i dont fully agree with, did express this point:
https://thefederalist.com/2023/01/30/hbos-the-last-of-us-is-wrong-assisted-suicide-is-not-incredibly-romantic/
If the writers of "The Last of Us" and the characters they created truly understood love, they might have considered a different road. By sacrificially laying down their own desires instead of selfishly taking their lives, Bill and Frank could have provided friendship to Joel and Ellie who needed companionship as much as they needed a truck and showers and literally helped save the world.
Instead, they killed that possibility, and called it good.
bobinator said:
Just joining to see that episode sort of emotionally blindsided my wife and I, was definitely not expecting that. Halfway through my wife was even like "isn't this a zombie show based on a video game? what happened to that?"
Completely agree. None of that story was even in the game. This was completely done by HBO show runners and really takes one out of the story really not add anything to it. It was a one-off that 95% could be cut out to focus back on our two main characters.
I do agree that the act of suicide in that instance did not seem in line with the character. I get the exposition they gave about his life revolving around Frank, but I just don't see a man who is a survivor like Bill giving in to despair. It seems like a leap to choose suicide in that situation, and I do not find it romantic in the least.
I don't know... I both can kind of see how he may have come to that decision, but at the same time do not understand how the character we were presented with would make that decision.
Whether romantic or not, I still find it to be tragic.
I don't know... I both can kind of see how he may have come to that decision, but at the same time do not understand how the character we were presented with would make that decision.
Whether romantic or not, I still find it to be tragic.
Frank did make some comment about how it was stupid he did that, but the hopeless romantic loved it.
I can see what you're both getting at but for me, it's as simple as Bill met the love of his life which completely changed his world view and attitude. Despite his years of solitude
/insulating himself from finding a meaningful relationship and successfully beating all odds of survival, he simply realized he'll never find another purpose as meaningful as what he had in Frank and therefore had nothing else to live for.
/insulating himself from finding a meaningful relationship and successfully beating all odds of survival, he simply realized he'll never find another purpose as meaningful as what he had in Frank and therefore had nothing else to live for.
FWIW I meant our reaction as a compliment to the show. We were not expecting anything to resonate on that kind of emotional level in this show, especially this early.
I think it is wildly ridiculous to assume you know how someone living in a damn zombie apocalypse who is about to lose the love of their life, should choose to live or not live their life.
well, to me that is sort of my point.beagle2009 said:
I can see what you're both getting at but for me, it's as simple as Bill met the love of his life which completely changed his world view and attitude. Despite his years of solitude
/insulating himself from finding a meaningful relationship and successfully beating all odds of survival, he simply realized he'll never find another purpose as meaningful as what he had in Frank and therefore had nothing else to live for.
it didnt change his world view at all. frank was just a possession he didnt want to live without.
he didnt learn to want to fix anything or help anyone. he just wanted frank around because frank made him happy.
This is wrong. It completely changed his worldview, and he stated as such in the letter.
imo, the purpose of the show seems to be that joel and ellie have a way to save humanitygigemJTH12 said:
I think it is wildly ridiculous to assume you know how someone living in a damn zombie apocalypse who is about to lose the love of their life, should choose to live or not live their life.
and that they were helping each other even before, because of frank; joel, tess helped each other even before they knew they could save humanity
that is what good people do.
my wife and i agreed during the show that we would not have killed ourselves as bill did, because we could always spend our lives helping someone.
thus the act was very selfish. bill could certainly have helped save the world, or at least some good people in it.
If characters are written to conjure messages about life and are completely fictional, then of course it is common to discuss why characters do one thing or another. This isn't a documentary. He learned nothing in his decade long relationship and retreated back to the nothingness that he surrounded himself. There wasn't real transformation of character which is all we are discussing.gigemJTH12 said:
I think it is wildly ridiculous to assume you know how someone living in a damn zombie apocalypse who is about to lose the love of their life, should choose to live or not live their life.
dont tell me, show me.Definitely Not A Cop said:
This is wrong. It completely changed his worldview, and he stated as such in the letter.
bill did say that, but his actions proved he never changed.
cbr said:dont tell me, show me.Definitely Not A Cop said:
This is wrong. It completely changed his worldview, and he stated as such in the letter.
bill did say that, but his actions proved he never changed.
His actions showed he did. He then explicitly states it on top of this.
But in reality it didn't. If it had, he'd have helped the next person who came along or he would have been alive when Joel and Ellie arrived to arm them, clothe them and potentially soldier out with them once discovering Ellie's condition. Instead, he threw all that away in selfish despair. Suicide is not admirable.Definitely Not A Cop said:
This is wrong. It completely changed his worldview, and he stated as such in the letter.
The message when Frank arrived should have been, don't judge the world for the evils it wrought but the good that can come.
I think I'd off myself like .4 seconds into the zombie apocalypse so they did better than I would
In reality it did. He went from only caring about himself to devoting his life to a single person. That's a huge change. He explicitly states the message that you don't have to try to save everyone to make the world a better place. You just need to find one person to support.
what actions? i dont see any selfless actions.Definitely Not A Cop said:cbr said:dont tell me, show me.Definitely Not A Cop said:
This is wrong. It completely changed his worldview, and he stated as such in the letter.
bill did say that, but his actions proved he never changed.
His actions showed he did. He then explicitly states it on top of this.
killing himself, letting the 80's message go out, and knowing that joel and tess would risk their lives (and tess did die) to come check on him?
while it turns out that they had already left, that was in fact what bill knew was going to happen from his actions.
or that he is dead and can't help them put together a battery or if they were wounded or hurt?
what if they were in need of his help?
or that he is dead and can't help save the world, teach Ellie or anything else the things he knows,
i dont see how he really changed.
he went from '**** the world i want everyone to die'
to 'i want to live as long as this one person makes me happy and i want to keep him here to myself'
to 'now this person is no longer here to make me happy, so **** everyone i know, including frank's friends, i want them all to die miserable deaths.'
Gotta be honest - you non-gamers are pretty miserable to watch a show with lol. Best of luck to you guys this season. I'll just say Neil Druckmann knows a thing or two about human emotional conflict and it's the 3rd episode of 9 so just let it breathe
I recommend rewatching the episode again, it can answer any of the basic plot points you seemed to have missed. Or you can re-read the numerous posts on here explaining it in detail for you.
But I've played the game..
I don't really care to argue about the greater point that you seem very passionate about, but I think the radio signal was to let them know they were dead. He had to "reset the countdown" or that music would go out, so when he didn't reset it, it went out.I don't think it was like a distress call for someone to come check on them.
this isnt a political debate, and there not necessarily a right or wrong to this one.Definitely Not A Cop said:
I recommend rewatching the episode again, it can answer any of the basic plot points you seemed to have missed. Or you can re-read the numerous posts on here explaining it in detail for you.
what plot points say 'bill is acting selflessly' to you?
maybe, i took it as warning of trouble.bobinator said:
I don't really care to argue about the greater point that you seem very passionate about, but I think the radio signal was to let them know they were dead. He had to "reset the countdown" or that music would go out, so when he didn't reset it, it went out.I don't think it was like a distress call for someone to come check on them.
the natural reaction to 'trouble' is to go help, not to just say 'oh well, they're dead'
and frankly, either way, 'they're dead' means 'go see what's up' - putting them in danger, i would think
not a slight towards you - just the overall tone and direction this thread has taken the last 5+ pages
i'm not passionate about this issue, its just a philosphical point/question of the plot.
i am in between very stressful complex tasks, and so i'm here taking a mental break.
i am in between very stressful complex tasks, and so i'm here taking a mental break.
It's now become apparent that the topic doesn't matter at all. You guys just like to argue, period. What a miserable way to be. You're as bad as you claim Bill is/was.
Well, philosophically, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference whether we think he's changed or not. He thinks he has, and he's passing the idea of living for someone else to Joel. So he believes in the idea and he's passed on the idea, even if you think he doesn't really understand it or live it.
If you live for others, and that fulfills you, then isn't it still a selfish act because it's fulfilling you? You're only doing it because if fulfills some sort of desire or obligation within yourself.
Also his last act is the selfless one. He takes the time to write the note and make things where Joel can find them and use them. That's the act that proves he's changed.
If you live for others, and that fulfills you, then isn't it still a selfish act because it's fulfilling you? You're only doing it because if fulfills some sort of desire or obligation within yourself.
Also his last act is the selfless one. He takes the time to write the note and make things where Joel can find them and use them. That's the act that proves he's changed.
good post,bobinator said:
Well, philosophically, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference whether we think he's changed or not. He thinks he has, and he's passing the idea of living for someone else to Joel. So he believes in the idea and he's passed on the idea, even if you think he doesn't really understand it or live it.
If you live for others, and that fulfills you, then isn't it still a selfish act because it's fulfilling you? You're only doing it because if fulfills some sort of desire or obligation within yourself.
Also his last act is the selfless one. He takes the time to write the note and make things where Joel can find them and use them. That's the act that's proved he's changed.
what distinguishes love/altruism from self fulfillment is a valid question
does it matter is another one i guess
passing on the idea was essentially the whole point of the episode from a plot perspective.
i lean towards 'suicide is selfish' still, but can see the point.
Good point Bob.
Best line from the episode:
"Are you armed?"
".......................................................no"
"Why'd it take you so long to answer?"
"I thought about lying but then I couldn't think of anything."
"Are you armed?"
".......................................................no"
"Why'd it take you so long to answer?"
"I thought about lying but then I couldn't think of anything."
Personally, if my wife and kid were gone, I'd easily contemplate "alternative" options to living without them. I don't think that's selfish, I think it's human.
Quote:
what distinguishes love/altruism from self fulfillment is a valid question
It's been argued many times, and I agree with it, is there really are no such things as pure altruism. Those give or do because of how it makes them feel.
He left the letter in order to leave all his things, and his house, to Joel and Tess. That's obviously why he didn't shut off the music, so that they would come check on them and find the letter.
Of course he knew it would be a dangerous trip, but to call it a selfish act is a massive stretch. He had no way of knowing Tess would die, and she wouldn't have if they weren't taking Ellie to the Fireflies.
Of course he knew it would be a dangerous trip, but to call it a selfish act is a massive stretch. He had no way of knowing Tess would die, and she wouldn't have if they weren't taking Ellie to the Fireflies.
As a non game player, this next post is pure speculation. But say Joel and Ellie do find the Fireflies, and the doctors/scientists there turn out to be a step above Nazi death camp experimenters. Would Joel be acting selfishly by not sacrificing Ellie to their experiments so that they could potentially make the world a better place? Or is he still making the world a better place by simply protecting her and ensuring she survives, at the expense of a potential cure?
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