*** WATCHMEN (HBO) ***

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c-jags
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In reply to WES2006AG • 2:28p, 12/9/19
WES2006AG said:
c-jags said:
Tom Ato said:
I think...
pop culture has diffused the word racist to a point that some would think anyone that supports a certain political party is a racist, or any number of other words. This means that anyone that supports anything that someone on twitter has deemed "racist" now has to defend other "racists" since the nuance is all gone. I am sure most people hate white supremacists but since people that may support walls or no affirmative action get lumped in with white supremacists it became a hot button issue.


I checked out after the second episode because of the white supremacy (and Regina's and Damon's comments)

You put it succinctly.

I don't think there are very many people out there or in this thread that support white supremacy. It's evil, vile and should be treated as such. Same for Nazism.

However, pretending like people in the political spectrum do not brand the other side as racists/white suprematist for things like having a different opinion than the Democratic Party on poverty, welfare, immigration, guns, etc. is being willfully ignorant. I have made the statement before that "I don't really want a wall and didn't vote for Trump, but unchecked immigration is not a good thing. I don't want it, but I understand why Trump thinks it's a necessity," and was called a white supremacist to my face for that view.

So when you have a side that is gung ho to call the other side a name to shut them down, people are going to stop listening and respond negatively to the constant demonization of the name you call them (even in if the 2 episodes I watched they are obviously terrible people.) So while i understand we have very terrible people that are racist (and there are plenty of them,) those of us who love all people but subscribe to certain views that are no way racist, are going to tune out the accusations.
I guess my last post on the topic got pulled down because it triggered those who don't want to talk about this stuff enough to flag it.

Oh well, one last comment...

It is laughably fragile that you stopped watching this show because of the portrayal of white supremacists. Sorry if that is offensive but it is absolutely true.


While I didn't appreciate it or agree with your comment it had nothing bannable in it. Definitely wasn't me that flagged it.

I didn't quit HBO because of this show. I quit because GoT season 8 sucked. BLL was really underwhelming and there were no more pulls for me with upcoming shows (I did like Barry, but I'm not keeping a year long subscription because of that) on top of the artistic talent of Watchmen telling me what to think of watchmen and race issues today. I'm not in here bashing the show. I liked the direction of the first two episodes and thought it was a very cool weird sci-fi vibe.

I said I think WS is evil and I don't mind them as the bad guys. I don't however like that my very innocuous views are called WS when nothing could be further from the truth.

My problem is that it's easy to go "hey look at those people. They're white supremacist and Nazis. Let's get them!"

And the crowd cheered.

Then the mob turned a finger on a different group and said "hey they're WS and Nazis too. Let's get them!"

And a group is sitting there going "wtf? No we're not."

To pretend like a large part of the political dialogue today is not calling the other side racist, is fooling yourself.

I am not triggered. I am not raging. I have very few posts on this thread. Somebody offered an opinion on why the WS angle was frowned upon. I just expanded on that.

Cheers in the most sincere spirit.
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WES2006AG
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In reply to c-jags • 2:40p, 12/9/19
AG
Well said, and I probably didn't need to take the tone that I did. It also wasn't all directed at you, there have been many people expressing that the use of white supremacists as the bad guys was unnecessary.

My point is that whites should not be angry with white supremacists being the villain and being portrayed as scum. They are scum in real life, and portraying them as the villain is not a slight to all white people. I really don't know how we got to a point where that needs to be said, but this thread is proof that it does in fact need to be said.
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c-jags
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In reply to WES2006AG • 3:08p, 12/9/19
WES2006AG said:
Well said, and I probably didn't need to take the tone that I did. It also wasn't all directed at you, there have been many people expressing that the use of white supremacists as the bad guys was unnecessary.

My point is that whites should not be angry with white supremacists being the villain and being portrayed as scum. They are scum in real life, and portraying them as the villain is not a slight to all white people. I really don't know how we got to a point where that needs to be said, but this thread is proof that it does in fact need to be said.


I didn't think you were taking it with me in particular and I appreciate the olive branch.

I know you lean the other way and the poli board can bring out the worst in conservatives and sometimes (mostly) it's rightly called out as the echo chamber, but conservatives are just tired of being the boogeymen in Hollywood. When the world calls them WS and we're left going WTF. All we can say is "no we're not" to the reply of "why are you offended? We're just talking about REAL WS. By the way, read this article about how some innocuous thing is WS."

I can't relate with their plight because of my religion and skin tone but I understand Muslims being tired of the worst possible view of their religion constantly being the bad guy in film.

So I do mean that as an olive branch and an explanation. I'm blessed and the worst thing in this regard is that a bunch of people in the world think I'm racist for voting the way I do for having opinions differing than their own. I in no way think that's oppression compared to true horrors of the past in regards to this issue.
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IronRed13
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3:46p, 12/9/19
AG
So who is running Ozy's squid rain machine? Didn't appear automated
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Definitely Not A Cop
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3:50p, 12/9/19
AG
Keeping on with Ozy, so did he plan to escape from the beginning? If not, why did he keep programming the clone to give him the horseshoe on his anniversary?
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degreedy
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4:29p, 12/9/19
AG
so can someone create a shortlist of unexplained/unaddressed events that the season finale will hopefully wrap up?
  • Obviously off the bat, Lady Treu purchasing that farmland and whatever it was falling from the sky. Almost every one of us assume its Ozy returning to Earth in some form or fashion.
  • Looking Glass: Where is he and what is he planning?
  • Dr. M's powers: Who is going to get them and how will they use them?
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claym711
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4:54p, 12/9/19
AG
If the production and story weren't so great, I wouldn't have gone past episode one. The BLM / racist white supremacy stuff is such a snoozer, and the other messages on race are so heavy handed it's eye roll material...look at the bad white man who couldn't resist spoiling paradise with his god complex and enslaving...white people. Haha. Thankfully there is a lot more to the show but for Christ's sake can we move on from skin color. It's just so unsophisticated and unintelligent to have skin color be an integral part of something this good (or anything).
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Mantis Toboggan MD
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In reply to degreedy • 4:55p, 12/9/19
AG
NPH- said:
so can someone create a shortlist of unexplained/unaddressed events that the season finale will hopefully wrap up?
  • Obviously off the bat, Lady Treu purchasing that farmland and whatever it was falling from the sky. Almost every one of us assume its Ozy returning to Earth in some form or fashion.
  • Looking Glass: Where is he and what is he planning?
  • Dr. M's powers: Who is going to get them and how will they use them?

SLIPPERY MAN
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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WES2006AG
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In reply to degreedy • 5:02p, 12/9/19
AG
NPH- said:
so can someone create a shortlist of unexplained/unaddressed events that the season finale will hopefully wrap up?
  • Obviously off the bat, Lady Treu purchasing that farmland and whatever it was falling from the sky. Almost every one of us assume its Ozy returning to Earth in some form or fashion.
  • Looking Glass: Where is he and what is he planning?
  • Dr. M's powers: Who is going to get them and how will they use them?


Also what is the Millennium Clock and what happens when they turn it on?
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Mantis Toboggan MD
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In reply to degreedy • 5:06p, 12/9/19
AG
NPH- said:
so can someone create a shortlist of unexplained/unaddressed events that the season finale will hopefully wrap up?
  • Obviously off the bat, Lady Treu purchasing that farmland and whatever it was falling from the sky. Almost every one of us assume its Ozy returning to Earth in some form or fashion.
  • Looking Glass: Where is he and what is he planning?
  • Dr. M's powers: Who is going to get them and how will they use them?

This is an interesting theory, but I don't know if it holds up for me. Ozy is a human, not a meteorite or space debris or something that might be subject to ownership and property laws. If it were Ozy then why would owning the farm property make a difference, because she wouldn't be able to own him?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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TCTTS
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In reply to claym711 • 5:12p, 12/9/19
AG
claym711 said:
If the production and story weren't so great, I wouldn't have gone past episode one. The BLM / racist white supremacy stuff is such a snoozer, and the other messages on race are so heavy handed it's eye roll material...look at the bad white man who couldn't resist spoiling paradise with his god complex and enslaving...white people. Haha. Thankfully there is a lot more to the show but for Christ's sake can we move on from skin color. It's just so unsophisticated and unintelligent to have skin color be an integral part of something this good (or anything).

I just don't see much of what you're talking about at all. This feels like so much projecting on your part. The bad-white-man-spoiling-paradise thing didn't even cross my mind, and I can't think of a single hint that that's what they're actually going for. You and a handful of others keep complaining about how there's all this finger wagging toward white people in this show, but have yet to give one concrete example.

I can think of three instances where they where they kind of sort of underlined it a bit (though I'm sure I'm missing others)...

- Angela, in the pilot, saying, "I got a nose for white supremacy, and he smells like bleach."

- The flashback episode to Will's/Hooded Justice's origin.

- The senator telling Blake, "It's extremely difficult being a white man in America right now, so I'm thinking I might try being a blue one," which was completely tongue in cheek.

... but none of those instances feel like a "message" is being pushed. Rather, this show simply seems to be an examination, which is a very different thing. I'm legitimately asking - what message do think this show is trying to get across? Because even I couldn't tell you what it is. To me, it's just showing some bad/dumb white supremacist, and some black characters trying to navigate them, but NOTHING about this show has portrayed a blatant "black power" vibe or seems to be sh*tting on or guilting white people in general in any way.

If anyone cares to explain, beyond just griping without providing legit examples, I'm all ears...
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TCTTS
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In reply to Mantis Toboggan MD • 5:14p, 12/9/19
AG
This is the point I made a few weeks ago. Ozy doesn't make sense. When the husband asks, "What is that?" and Lady Trieu says, "Mine," she's not going to reference a human being in that way. Nor can she "own" him because he crashed on land she now owns.
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C@LAg
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In reply to TCTTS • 5:21p, 12/9/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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In reply to C@LAg • 5:24p, 12/9/19
AG
Yeah, possibly. In the preview for next week's episode, we see Lady Trieu approaching Karnak in the Antarctic, so maybe whatever that scene is reveals more of the connection in some way.
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redline248
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6:30p, 12/9/19
AG
Dr M not only said they would transport him, but they would also destroy him. Now, I think that is going to happen next week and didn't happen at that moment with the cannon. One thing he hasn't mentioned yet is if he comes back or not. He knows the relationship ends in tragedy, but that might imply he knows what happens next.

Or am I off, here?
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redline248
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6:33p, 12/9/19
AG
We know Dr M sent Ozy to Europa 10 years ago. In the episode Ozy talked about when he first came to paradise, does he say how long he'd been there?
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claym711
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In reply to TCTTS • 6:33p, 12/9/19
AG
It's a central theme of the show, and Lindelof has stated as much. And no, my example is not projecting. It's quite clear the show is as big a statement on skin color as it is on the watchmen story. I'm just saying it isa boring, redundant, and unnecessary.
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Hey...so.. um
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In reply to TCTTS • 6:36p, 12/9/19
TCTTS said:
claym711 said:
If the production and story weren't so great, I wouldn't have gone past episode one. The BLM / racist white supremacy stuff is such a snoozer, and the other messages on race are so heavy handed it's eye roll material...look at the bad white man who couldn't resist spoiling paradise with his god complex and enslaving...white people. Haha. Thankfully there is a lot more to the show but for Christ's sake can we move on from skin color. It's just so unsophisticated and unintelligent to have skin color be an integral part of something this good (or anything).

I just don't see much of what you're talking about at all. This feels like so much projecting on your part. The bad-white-man-spoiling-paradise thing didn't even cross my mind, and I can't think of a single hint that that's what they're actually going for. You and a handful of others keep complaining about how there's all this finger wagging toward white people in this show, but have yet to give one concrete example.

I can think of three instances where they where they kind of sort of underlined it a bit (though I'm sure I'm missing others)...

- Angela, in the pilot, saying, "I got a nose for white supremacy, and he smells like bleach."

- The flashback episode to Will's/Hooded Justice's origin.

- The senator telling Blake, "It's extremely difficult being a white man in America right now, so I'm thinking I might try being a blue one," which was completely tongue in cheek.

... but none of those instances feel like a "message" is being pushed. Rather, this show simply seems to be an examination, which is a very different thing. I'm legitimately asking - what message do think this show is trying to get across? Because even I couldn't tell you what it is. To me, it's just showing some bad/dumb white supremacist, and some black characters trying to navigate them, but NOTHING about this show has portrayed a blatant "black power" vibe or seems to be sh*tting on or guilting white people in general in any way.

If anyone cares to explain, beyond just griping without providing legit examples, I'm all ears...


I actually agree with this post. Obviously we have some differing opinions on some other topics, but this show hasn't been over the top white people are bad. In this reality, white supremacists are an actual threat. This reality also has robert Redford as president and a giant blue man with his wiener hanging out, so I dont think they are attempting to make any social commentary with the show.

I loved the last episode, the only issue I have is that Dr. Manhattan took his clothes off to go meet ozy. That seemed odd. He was dressed in the scene before wasnt he or did i miss that.
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TCTTS
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In reply to claym711 • 6:38p, 12/9/19
AG

Quote:
It's a central theme of the show, and Lindelof has stated as much. And no, my example is not projecting. It's quite clear the show is as big a statement on skin color as it is on the watchmen story. I'm just saying it isa boring, redundant, and unnecessary.

And yet, you still can't tell me what that statement is. I know that Lindelof has said the show is *about* race, but you and others keep trying to imply that it has a racial "message" you don't like. And that's what I'm asking about/trying to figure out. What is this nefarious message that has you so up in arms?
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Hey...so.. um
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In reply to TCTTS • 6:43p, 12/9/19
TCTTS said:

Quote:
It's a central theme of the show, and Lindelof has stated as much. And no, my example is not projecting. It's quite clear the show is as big a statement on skin color as it is on the watchmen story. I'm just saying it isa boring, redundant, and unnecessary.

And yet, you still can't tell me what that statement is. I know that Lindelof has said the show is *about* race, but you and others keep trying to imply that it has a racial "message" you don't like. And that's what I'm asking about/trying to figure out. What is this nefarious message that has you so up in arms?


I think some people are thinking that the show is trying to say that white supremacy is a real threat in the real world. I dont think the show is trying to say that but I believe others do.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Hey...so.. um • 6:44p, 12/9/19
AG
If the show were making that statement, I'd probably be somewhat upset too. But yeah, like you, I just don't think it's trying to say that at all.
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fig96
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In reply to TCTTS • 6:54p, 12/9/19
AG
Not to mention that outside the existence of the 7th Calvary there's been little to no message about it in the last few episodes. There's no ranting diatribes from either side, just the acknowledgement of this terrorist group that the senator is using to achieve his means.
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TCTTS
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In reply to fig96 • 6:58p, 12/9/19
AG
Exactly. Which goes back to amercer's comment that it's using "race" as a backdrop no different than "drug cartels, Islamic terrorists, the mob, street gangs, and pretty much every other bad guy group you could use in a story."
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to Hey...so.. um • 6:59p, 12/9/19
AG
Hey...so.. um said:
TCTTS said:
claym711 said:
If the production and story weren't so great, I wouldn't have gone past episode one. The BLM / racist white supremacy stuff is such a snoozer, and the other messages on race are so heavy handed it's eye roll material...look at the bad white man who couldn't resist spoiling paradise with his god complex and enslaving...white people. Haha. Thankfully there is a lot more to the show but for Christ's sake can we move on from skin color. It's just so unsophisticated and unintelligent to have skin color be an integral part of something this good (or anything).

I just don't see much of what you're talking about at all. This feels like so much projecting on your part. The bad-white-man-spoiling-paradise thing didn't even cross my mind, and I can't think of a single hint that that's what they're actually going for. You and a handful of others keep complaining about how there's all this finger wagging toward white people in this show, but have yet to give one concrete example.

I can think of three instances where they where they kind of sort of underlined it a bit (though I'm sure I'm missing others)...

- Angela, in the pilot, saying, "I got a nose for white supremacy, and he smells like bleach."

- The flashback episode to Will's/Hooded Justice's origin.

- The senator telling Blake, "It's extremely difficult being a white man in America right now, so I'm thinking I might try being a blue one," which was completely tongue in cheek.

... but none of those instances feel like a "message" is being pushed. Rather, this show simply seems to be an examination, which is a very different thing. I'm legitimately asking - what message do think this show is trying to get across? Because even I couldn't tell you what it is. To me, it's just showing some bad/dumb white supremacist, and some black characters trying to navigate them, but NOTHING about this show has portrayed a blatant "black power" vibe or seems to be sh*tting on or guilting white people in general in any way.

If anyone cares to explain, beyond just griping without providing legit examples, I'm all ears...


I actually agree with this post. Obviously we have some differing opinions on some other topics, but this show hasn't been over the top white people are bad. In this reality, white supremacists are an actual threat. This reality also has robert Redford as president and a giant blue man with his wiener hanging out, so I dont think they are attempting to make any social commentary with the show.

I loved the last episode, the only issue I have is that Dr. Manhattan took his clothes off to go meet ozy. That seemed odd. He was dressed in the scene before wasnt he or did i miss that.


If you wait a couple weeks the porno will be out and you can watch him hang dong in all of them.
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amercer
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In reply to Hey...so.. um • 7:24p, 12/9/19
AG
Him and Angela were doing the nasty when they had the fight, so he teleported himself to Antarctica naked.

I've got some shrinkage related questions, but I guess he is a god....

Also, in the context of our discussion here, I thought Veidt's comments to him on blackface were hilarious
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C@LAg
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In reply to amercer • 7:26p, 12/9/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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Hey...so.. um
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In reply to amercer • 7:27p, 12/9/19
amercer said:
Him and Angela were doing the nasty when they had the fight, so he teleported himself to Antarctica naked.

I've got some shrinkage related questions, but I guess he is a god....

Also, in the context of our discussion here, I thought Veidt's comments to him on blackface were hilarious
That's right. Okay that makes sense now.
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c-jags
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:21p, 12/9/19
TCTTS said:
claym711 said:
If the production and story weren't so great, I wouldn't have gone past episode one. The BLM / racist white supremacy stuff is such a snoozer, and the other messages on race are so heavy handed it's eye roll material...look at the bad white man who couldn't resist spoiling paradise with his god complex and enslaving...white people. Haha. Thankfully there is a lot more to the show but for Christ's sake can we move on from skin color. It's just so unsophisticated and unintelligent to have skin color be an integral part of something this good (or anything).

I just don't see much of what you're talking about at all. This feels like so much projecting on your part. The bad-white-man-spoiling-paradise thing didn't even cross my mind, and I can't think of a single hint that that's what they're actually going for. You and a handful of others keep complaining about how there's all this finger wagging toward white people in this show, but have yet to give one concrete example.

I can think of three instances where they where they kind of sort of underlined it a bit (though I'm sure I'm missing others)...

- Angela, in the pilot, saying, "I got a nose for white supremacy, and he smells like bleach."

- The flashback episode to Will's/Hooded Justice's origin.

- The senator telling Blake, "It's extremely difficult being a white man in America right now, so I'm thinking I might try being a blue one," which was completely tongue in cheek.

... but none of those instances feel like a "message" is being pushed. Rather, this show simply seems to be an examination, which is a very different thing. I'm legitimately asking - what message do think this show is trying to get across? Because even I couldn't tell you what it is. To me, it's just showing some bad/dumb white supremacist, and some black characters trying to navigate them, but NOTHING about this show has portrayed a blatant "black power" vibe or seems to be sh*tting on or guilting white people in general in any way.

If anyone cares to explain, beyond just griping without providing legit examples, I'm all ears...



These were the comments that gave me pause before the show.

Quote:
What's happened is that Trump has just emboldened people. They were always there, feeling the way they've been feeling, but now, oh my gosh," Watchmen actress Regina King said in an interview.

No one wants their filthy past, their dirty little secret, to come out. A lot of people in these positions of power white men don't even realize it was a problem, or something you should feel embarrassed about," she added.

The show creator Damon Lindelof, who also created Lost and The Leftovers, has said publicly that he made the show to be as "woke" as possible.

"When I started to think about what 'Watchmen' was going to be, trying to think about it in the original source material, the book was highly political," Lindelof said to the Television Critics Association this summer. "What in 2019 is the equivalent of the nuclear standoff between Russia and the U.S.? It felt like it was undeniably race and policing in America."

"This show is trolling the white savior," he added.



You can say those are fair statements and I won't argue. But they are for sure off putting.
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amercer
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In reply to C@LAg • 8:41p, 12/9/19
AG
C@LAg said:
amercer said:
Him and Angela were doing the nasty when they had the fight, so he teleported himself to Antarctica naked.

I've got some shrinkage related questions, but I guess he is a god....

Also, in the context of our discussion here, I thought Veidt's comments to him on blackface were hilarious
but given that that was 10+ years ago, that kind of predates most of the blackface outrage BS.

but what stood out to me was Veidt's vanity in wanting and missing recognition for what he did.

That seems very much out of character. The whole point of his plan was that people had to believe it was real for it to work. If they actually KNEW it was fake, then it would all fall apart. He was willing to kill millions and accept that burden for his peace.



I think he was mostly upset that his plans for earth post squid attack didn't work out. In the video that mirror guy watched, he's like "hello president Redford, sit down for the next 5 hours while I tell you exactly what to do....."

When Manhattan shows up he's a disheveled, bitter old guy who's mad that no one is following his plan (especially about getting rid of nukes)

Maybe he thought that once he had achieved utopia he could reveal himself to the world and get adulation for his great plan. Or maybe he wouldn't be pissed about his plans working quietly, if they were actually working.
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TCTTS
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In reply to c-jags • 8:42p, 12/9/19
AG
I would definitely say that they're fair statements, but I agree that the "woke" aspect is off putting (even though, in the way it's phrased, it's questionable whether Lindelof used that exact word).
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amercer
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In reply to C@LAg • 8:47p, 12/9/19
AG
C@LAg said:
amercer said:
Him and Angela were doing the nasty when they had the fight, so he teleported himself to Antarctica naked.

I've got some shrinkage related questions, but I guess he is a god....

Also, in the context of our discussion here, I thought Veidt's comments to him on blackface were hilarious
but given that that was 10+ years ago, that kind of predates most of the blackface outrage BS.


I know there have been some high profile scandals lately, but blackface has been a big no-no for a long time. When I was on campus in the mid 90's there was a big scandal over a frat party with guys in blackface. The internet didn't exist to drive the rage machine, but it was in all the Texas media and was an embarrassment for the school.

Plus, in the comic Veidt is the most progressive one, so he's probably out in front of the PC curve
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C@LAg
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In reply to amercer • 8:51p, 12/9/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:53p, 12/9/19
AG
TCTTS said:
I would definitely say that they're fair statements, but I agree that the "woke" aspect is off putting (even though, in the way it's phrased, it's questionable whether Lindelof used that exact word).


Why should I be embarrassed about it?

Not a fair statement at all.
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TCTTS
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 8:54p, 12/9/19
AG
Huh?
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c-jags
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:09p, 12/9/19
TCTTS said:
Huh?


I agree with him (disagree with King) but still think it's a fair statement.

I think the interpretation is that King is saying we should have white guilt and be embarrassed. I am embarrassed that America allowed for racism for so long. I'm not personally embarrassed that I engaged in any of it.

Whether she meant for my white guilt is in the eye of the beholder. I don't care for her statement but understand the merits of it.
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