*** WATCHMEN (HBO) ***

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TCTTS
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In reply to c-jags • 9:26p, 12/9/19
AG
Ah, gotcha.

I think it's perfectly okay to feel a general sense of embarrassment that racism played such a huge role in the forging of our country (slavery, civil rights, etc.), and I think it's perfectly okay for a black person to want us, as a country, to feel embarrassed. But am I *personally* embarrassed for *my* actions, and do I feel a responsibility for the actions of white men prior to my existence? No, of course not, and I don't think that's what King is getting at. I don't think she's saying that I, as a white man, should feel guilt for the past actions of my gender/race. Embarrassment and guilt are two different things. I think it's more of a general "We should all feel embarrassed as a country and learn from our past" kind of thing.
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Hey...so.. um
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:57p, 12/9/19
TCTTS said:
Ah, gotcha.

I think it's perfectly okay to feel a general sense of embarrassment that racism played such a huge role in the forging of our country (slavery, civil rights, etc.), and I think it's perfectly okay for a black person to want us, as a country, to feel embarrassed. But am I *personally* embarrassed for *my* actions, and do I feel a responsibility for the actions of white men prior to my existence? No, of course not, and I don't think that's what King is getting at. I don't think she's saying that I, as a white man, should feel guilt for the past actions of my gender/race. I think embarrassment and guilt are two different things. I think it's more of a general "We should all feel embarrassed as a country and learn from our past" kind of thing.


I think embarrassed is the wrong word. I also dont think anyone should feel guilt or look poorly upon the USA for anything that the citizens of this country and the world engaged in at the time. Perspective is key when studying the past.

If you study our founding documents, freedom is the common theme. Their was dissent in how much and to whom that freedom would extend, but I am proud that our founders left an Avenue to right our previous wrongs. I wish slavery had ended sooner as it was contradictory to our country's values, but there is no reason to judge people after the fact using standards different from their own time in history.

On of my favorite perspective tests is giving a situation to someone where they can see the glass half full, or half empty.

Sure, you can look at slavery and racism in the past and fill your heart with embarrassment and hatred, or you can look at how our country and our people have and are overcoming these atrocities and be proud and enthusiastic.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Hey...so.. um • 10:06p, 12/9/19
AG
Agree completely. The world has a long history of terrible atrocities. But sorry, I'm not going to feel embarrassment or shame about something I had nothing to do with or who I am today.
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TCTTS
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 10:20p, 12/9/19
AG
I think when people say "embarrassment" what they really mean is "empathy." You have one side saying, "Acknowledge that this happened. Acknowledge that it still affects the world today." And then on the other side you have people giving a version of the comment you're giving, by flippantly responding, "So what? I had nothing to do with that." And then both sides escalate from there. But there's a way to respond without sounding so cold, with just a simple injection of empathy to help contextualize your position. Because the more you essentially respond with a perceived "Get over it" attitude, the more the other side is going to want to keep reminding you that it happened.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to TCTTS • 10:28p, 12/9/19
AG
Angela King says that I should be embarrassed. She chose those words. I'm not flippant about any of that history. But I also don't have to take some caustic entirely offbase term to supposedly describe who I am and call it "fair". Not fair. More importantly, not productive to resolving the issues we have today.
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C@LAg
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 10:29p, 12/9/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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c-jags
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In reply to C@LAg • 10:35p, 12/9/19
C@LAg said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Angela King says
you mean Regina Abar?


Damon Cuse actually.

All that to say, hey a political discussion that didn't end in bans and a bunch of RAs along with people seeing the other side's POV moderately.

Nice.
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TCTTS
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 10:44p, 12/9/19
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
Angela King says that I should be embarrassed. She chose those words. I'm not flippant about any of that history. But I also don't have to take some caustic entirely offbase term to supposedly describe who I am and call it "fair". Not fair. More importantly, not productive to resolving the issues we have today.

Congratulations on being the first person in history to apparently always say exactly what they mean. I'm not trying to put words in her mouth, specifically, I'm just saying, maybe we should ALL try reacting with a bit more compassion and empathy to the subject. That doesn't mean you have to agree with her.
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TCTTS
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10:53p, 12/9/19
AG
If anyone wants to know exactly why Lindelof made this show, what his inspiration was, and what he's trying to say with it, The Watch has a new podcast interview with him up today in which he dives into all of it. I just finished it, and it's probably going to irk a few of you, but at the very least it's crystal clear now what his goal is/was. That said, I think it's a great interview overall, and I always enjoy listening to this guy talk...

https://www.theringer.com/2019/12/9/21004064/damon-lindelof-on-the-world-building-of-watchmen
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Hey...so.. um
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In reply to TCTTS • 5:24a, 12/10/19
TCTTS said:
I think when people say "embarrassment" what they really mean is "empathy." You have one side saying, "Acknowledge that this happened. Acknowledge that it still affects the world today." And then on the other side you have people giving a version of the comment you're giving, by flippantly responding, "So what? I had nothing to do with that." And then both sides escalate from there. But there's a way to respond without sounding so cold, with just a simple injection of empathy to help contextualize your position. Because the more you essentially respond with a perceived "Get over it" attitude, the more the other side is going to want to keep reminding you that it happened.


Empathy is a much better word. I have empathy for anyone that was ever mistreated or deals with internal or external demons. My response is still essentially get over it. Go make something of yourself, defy your or others preconceived notions and don't become a statistic.
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Hey...so.. um
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In reply to TCTTS • 5:31a, 12/10/19
TCTTS said:

Congratulations on being the first person in history to apparently always say exactly what they mean. I'm not trying to put words in her mouth, specifically, I'm just saying, maybe we should ALL try reacting with a bit more compassion and empathy to the subject. That doesn't mean you have to agree with her.


When your first sentence is condescending, you dont really invite others to look at the rest of your post, which I agree with. It is pretty much human nature to become defensive when met with someone being condescending.

I feel like I am an expert on this because I have been called a condescending a**hole on numerous occasions.
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claym711
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6:34a, 12/10/19
AG
So many cognitive distortions. Lindelof and others have said everything you're pretending no one has.

Your ad hominem approach is as boring as skin color being a central theme to any show.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:36a, 12/10/19
AG
TCTTS said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Angela King says that I should be embarrassed. She chose those words. I'm not flippant about any of that history. But I also don't have to take some caustic entirely offbase term to supposedly describe who I am and call it "fair". Not fair. More importantly, not productive to resolving the issues we have today.

Congratulations on being the first person in history to apparently always say exactly what they mean. I'm not trying to put words in her mouth, specifically, I'm just saying, maybe we should ALL try reacting with a bit more compassion and empathy to the subject. That doesn't mean you have to agree with her.
I don't think anything I posted warrants the snarky bs, but whatever. Can't say I'm surprised. Your board. Have fun.
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fig96
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In reply to claym711 • 9:58a, 12/10/19
AG
claym711 said:
So many cognitive distortions. Lindelof and others have said everything you're pretending no one has.

Your ad hominem approach is as boring as skin color being a central theme to any show.
Yet not as boring as you posting how boring it is every post. We heard you the first 4 times.
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BQ08
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12:43p, 12/10/19
AG
And y'all complain about 16 being an echo chamber...
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TCTTS
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In reply to claym711 • 12:47p, 12/10/19
AG
claym711 said:
So many cognitive distortions. Lindelof and others have said everything you're pretending no one has.

Your ad hominem approach is as boring as skin color being a central theme to any show.

Are you talking to me? Because I literally posted a podcast to Lindelof's own words. I'm not "pretending" anything.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Hey...so.. um • 12:55p, 12/10/19
AG
Hey...so.. um said:
TCTTS said:
I think when people say "embarrassment" what they really mean is "empathy." You have one side saying, "Acknowledge that this happened. Acknowledge that it still affects the world today." And then on the other side you have people giving a version of the comment you're giving, by flippantly responding, "So what? I had nothing to do with that." And then both sides escalate from there. But there's a way to respond without sounding so cold, with just a simple injection of empathy to help contextualize your position. Because the more you essentially respond with a perceived "Get over it" attitude, the more the other side is going to want to keep reminding you that it happened.


Empathy is a much better word. I have empathy for anyone that was ever mistreated or deals with internal or external demons. My response is still essentially get over it. Go make something of yourself, defy your or others preconceived notions and don't become a statistic.

I think the whole point of the black community's complaints at times is to essentially point out that this sentiment isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Are some injustices only perceived? Yes. Do some of these people play the victim too much? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that there *are* still deep-rooted systematic disadvantages at play. "Just work harder" is such a flippant cop out that doesn't come close to acknowledging the myriad ways someone *can* work hard and still have the system fail them.
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easttexasaggie04
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1:37p, 12/10/19
AG
Can we start a separate political Watchmen thread and keep this one sane?
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to BQ08 • 1:43p, 12/10/19
AG
BQ08 said:
And y'all complain about 16 being an echo chamber...


Well we certainly have been having the same argument over and over for the past week.
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TCTTS
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In reply to easttexasaggie04 • 1:51p, 12/10/19
AG
easttexasaggie04 said:
Can we start a separate political Watchmen thread and keep this one sane?

When the showrunner comes out (yesterday) and says that the article below was literally the inspiration for the show, I honestly don't know how it's possible to keep the discussions separate...

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

I'm usually advocating more than anyone to keep the discussions separate, but sometimes, when the movie/show is this intertwined with politics, I think the discussion is fair game. My only ask earlier in the season/thread was to keep the premature complaining to a minimum, but eight episodes in, now that the show is what it is, people are simply responding as such.

We need Screen Crush to save us with a new video...
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Hey...so.. um
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In reply to TCTTS • 2:01p, 12/10/19
TCTTS said:
Hey...so.. um said:
TCTTS said:
I think when people say "embarrassment" what they really mean is "empathy." You have one side saying, "Acknowledge that this happened. Acknowledge that it still affects the world today." And then on the other side you have people giving a version of the comment you're giving, by flippantly responding, "So what? I had nothing to do with that." And then both sides escalate from there. But there's a way to respond without sounding so cold, with just a simple injection of empathy to help contextualize your position. Because the more you essentially respond with a perceived "Get over it" attitude, the more the other side is going to want to keep reminding you that it happened.


Empathy is a much better word. I have empathy for anyone that was ever mistreated or deals with internal or external demons. My response is still essentially get over it. Go make something of yourself, defy your or others preconceived notions and don't become a statistic.

I think the whole point of the black community's complaints at times is to essentially point out that this sentiment isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Are some injustices only perceived? Yes. Do some of these people play the victim too much? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that there *are* still deep-rooted systematic disadvantages at play. "Just work harder" is such a flippant cop out that doesn't come close to acknowledging the myriad ways someone *can* work hard and still have the system fail them.


Very true. No where did I say it was easy, but there are tons of examples of people overcoming challenges. My parents both grew up very poor. I didnt, but only because my parents overcame their challenges.

I would also argue that many of the systematic disadvantages are culture and economic based and skin color is just an excuse created by correlation. Too many people confuse correlation and causation.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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2:12p, 12/10/19
AG
Fully support the federal government paying reparations to any person that was enslaved by federal law. I don't support the federal government paying reparations to an entire race of people, especially if they emigrated to America after slavery became illegal. Even more so if you came to the US after the Civil Rights act.

And even if we do end up paying reparations like that, I doubt that the people asking for them will be satisfied. We will still have people living in poverty, and poverty is the crux of the problem in today's society.
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fig96
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In reply to BQ08 • 2:59p, 12/10/19
AG
BQ08 said:
And y'all complain about 16 being an echo chamber...
The part where people had differing viewpoints and came to an understanding through discussion?
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BenFiasco14
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:05p, 12/10/19
AG
TCTTS said:
easttexasaggie04 said:
Can we start a separate political Watchmen thread and keep this one sane?

When the showrunner comes out (yesterday) and says that the article below was literally the inspiration for the show, I honestly don't know how it's possible to keep the discussions separate...

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

I'm usually advocating more than anyone to keep the discussions separate, but sometimes, when the movie/show is this intertwined with politics, I think the discussion is fair game. My only ask earlier in the season/thread was to keep the premature complaining to a minimum, but eight episodes in, now that the show is what it is, people are simply responding as such.

We need Screen Crush to save us with a new video...


I wish Lindelhoff wouldn't have used friggin WATCHMEN to push his reparations / race baiting agenda. Come up with your own IP or something. Ugh.

I still enjoy the show, but it would've been better without it. And yeah, so now his comments have gotten rid of any speculation or the idea people are reading too much into it.

Maybe instead of white supremacists the seventh kavalry could've just been an anarchist paramilitary group that uses Rorschach's journal as a manifesto. Hates cops, hates masked heroes, hates the vast majority of everyone they see as scum, and HATES Dr. Manhattan, who killed their leader.

Senator wants the power to subjugate the scum of the general populace to his will.

Could've told a similar story without the racebaiting. Hell, could've even kept the scenes of Angela seeing the origins of Hooded Justice and left the KKK as the KKK.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
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C@LAg
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In reply to BenFiasco14 • 9:06p, 12/10/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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BenFiasco14
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In reply to C@LAg • 9:11p, 12/10/19
AG
And still no Nite Owl sighting
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
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C@LAg
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In reply to BenFiasco14 • 9:16p, 12/10/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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BenFiasco14
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In reply to C@LAg • 9:18p, 12/10/19
AG
C@LAg said:
BenFiasco14 said:
And still no Nite Owl sighting
there will be no night owl


I'm aware. But for goodness sake, we got a ton of captain metropolis, who was the lamest. No Comedian or Nite Owl except for a tweet! And no excuse for Nite Owl as it's canon he's alive in this universe
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
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C@LAg
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In reply to BenFiasco14 • 9:23p, 12/10/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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TCTTS
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In reply to BenFiasco14 • 9:23p, 12/10/19
AG
In the podcast I posted last night, I did notice Lindelof say, at one point, when talking about the show, "this season." Granted, it could have been a slip of the tongue, but it feels like this is a big enough hit that HBO will want more, and that Lindelof will be game for more. If so, I can't imagine Night Owl not factoring into season two.
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TCTTS
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In reply to C@LAg • 9:27p, 12/10/19
AG
I just looked up the runtime for the finale and it's 70 minutes, so they're at least going a little longer.
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BenFiasco14
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In reply to C@LAg • 9:56p, 12/10/19
AG
C@LAg said:
BenFiasco14 said:
C@LAg said:
BenFiasco14 said:
And still no Nite Owl sighting
there will be no night owl


I'm aware. But for goodness sake, we got a ton of captain metropolis, who was the lamest. No Comedian or Nite Owl except for a tweet! And no excuse for Nite Owl as it's canon he's alive in this universe
we also did not get a lot of blue dong, yet I do not hear you raging about that.
There was blue dong in the play reenactment of Manhattans creation right? And also pseudo-blue dong with Blake's dildo. That's at least 1.5 blue dongs so far.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
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hph6203
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:59p, 12/10/19
AG
TCTTS said:
In the podcast I posted last night, I did notice Lindelof say, at one point, when talking about the show, "this season." Granted, it could have been a slip of the tongue, but it feels like this is a big enough hit that HBO will want more, and that Lindelof will be game for more. If so, I can't imagine Night Owl not factoring into season two.

The promo for the next episode is for the season finale, not series finale. I know they've been doing "Only __ episodes left." But I was always under the impression that the intention was for this to go more than one season. So while the showrunner may have had a slip of the tongue, I doubt the guy who makes the trailers for an episode that goes on TV did.

.
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C@LAg
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10:04p, 12/10/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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C@LAg
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In reply to hph6203 • 10:05p, 12/10/19
Sine poena nulla lex.
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