Sine poena nulla lex.
*** WATCHMEN (HBO) ***
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Last: 3 yr ago by third coast..
Ha. Of course. I'm an idiot.
fig96 said:I'd imagine his reason is like mine, that's there's no reason to post in an echo chamber. Acting like his view is narrow while talking about the Politics board is more than a bit ironic.Hey...so.. um said:
TCTTS: Stick to entertainment and stay out of politics. Living in LA has given you a narrow and narrative based view of things.
Your movie and show takes are great. There is a reason why you dont post on the politics board and why BenFiasco is a respected member of that forum.
Staff: please delete both of their comments about politics. It adds nothing to the conversation.
Your comments aren't adding anything either, for the record, go play policeman somewhere else.
Living in LA does give you a narrow view of white supremacy in OK. It is also ironic, or idiotic that you are chastising me for "being a policeman" while doing the exact same thing.
I used to love this thread and TCTTS's commentary, but now I dont want to sift through the political stuff. I thought we were past that. Oh well. I'll check out of this thread. My uber ride is almost over anyways.
Yeah, it sucks that upon moving to LA they make us use a different internet than the rest of the country. I really wish they'd let us watch more than just local news, too.
TCTTS said:
Yeah, it sucks that upon moving to LA they make us use a different internet than the rest of the country. I really wish they'd let us watch more than just local news, too.
Yep, because internet and news is the same as living/working in these areas.
Hey...so.. um said:TCTTS said:
Yeah, it sucks that upon moving to LA they make us use a different internet than the rest of the country. I really wish they'd let us watch more than just local news, too.
Yep, because internet and news is the same as living/working in these areas.
Is the argument that living in LA somehow gives you a less diverse view than living in Tulsa? Because if so that is absolutely laughable. Living in a city as large and iconic as LA exposes you to so many different people and viewpoints. It's far less homogeneous than smaller cities in a very homogeneous place like Oklahoma. There are far more conservatives living in LA than there are in Tulsa. The difference is that in NE OK there are much fewer numbers of brown people, immigrants, and liberals. It's far more of a bubble than a place like LA.
I won't be able to watch the episode tonight until later in the week. Going to be hard to avoid the discussion.
But that's good news for y'all. You don't have to read my deplorable point of view for a couple days
But that's good news for y'all. You don't have to read my deplorable point of view for a couple days
Im excited to see the what Manhattan is going to look like.
What's behind the theory that the male clone is actually what he looked like before? Just that it would be further torture for Ozymandias? If so, would the female clone be his first girlfriend?
What's behind the theory that the male clone is actually what he looked like before? Just that it would be further torture for Ozymandias? If so, would the female clone be his first girlfriend?
One of the male clones played Manhattan in Ozymandias' play, and that seemed to be symbolic. And yeah, if Manhattan is the one keeping Ozymandias there, it might make sense that Manhattan would essentially replicate himself as the "the help." As for the female clone, she might just be the female clone version of Manhattan, who knows...
TCTTS said:
One of the male clones played Manhattan in Ozymandias' play, and that seemed to be symbolic. And yeah, if Manhattan is the one keeping Ozymandias there, it might make sense that Manhattan would essentially replicate himself as the "the help." As for the female clone, she might just be the female clone version of Manhattan, who knows...
Or maybe she's Laurie Blake just young and with a British accent. Although she's not a redhead. Just would make it more humiliating to have the only people waiting on you be the actual people who jailed you in the first place.
TCTTS said:
As for the female clone, she might just be the female clone version of Manhattan, who knows...
That's what I always thought. Seems like they look similar. Or maybe it's his mom, or someone important to him. But I definitely think the male help is Jon Osterman.
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Or maybe she's Laurie Blake just young and with a British accent.
That was my other thought, and honestly pretty likely
Sex Panther said:TCTTS said:
As for the female clone, she might just be the female clone version of Manhattan, who knows...
That's what I always thought. Seems like they look similar. Or maybe it's his mom, or someone important to him. But I definitely think the male help is Jon Osterman.
That's a good call. If we take the play as symbolic, beyond just the male clone as Osterman, maybe she's a clone of Osterman's girlfriend, the one who had to watch him get zapped, both in real life and in the play.
Speaking of, I wonder if we get a Lindelof flashback version of this sequence, which I thought was the best sequence in the movie. That said, I'm assuming the play was meant to suffice, and that seeing a flashback version would be redundant...
TCTTS said:Sex Panther said:TCTTS said:
As for the female clone, she might just be the female clone version of Manhattan, who knows...
That's what I always thought. Seems like they look similar. Or maybe it's his mom, or someone important to him. But I definitely think the male help is Jon Osterman.
That's a good call. If we take the play as symbolic, beyond just the male clone as Osterman, maybe she's a clone of Osterman's girlfriend, the one who had to watch him get zapped, both in real life and in the play.
Ok, yeah... calling that 100%. She's Janey Slater. Osterman's girlfriend at the time of the accident:
Here she is in the movie:
Yeah that was who I assumed it was. Hopefully we'll find out soon.
Man, look at the pearl clutchers flock to the flame as soon as you mention how utterly idiotic, cheap, boring, dull, and lame the racism slant is in this show.
Thst was a great episode
Hmmm.
I loved the way the episode was structured/unfolded, but overall that was the first one that I thought really missed the mark. Blue-face black-face Doctor Manhattan just didn't work for me at all. In fact, they went with the option I feared the most, and he was even worse than I expected that option could be. They really botched that aspect, IMO. And if they don't explain why he fell in love with Angela in the first place, beyond the paradoxical angle - as in, what makes her worthy of not only being the central character of this series, but worthy of the love of a literal god - this series will likely end on a pretty low note for me.
I have a few more questions/issues, but I think I need to let this episode sit with me a little longer first. Gut instinct, though, is that they're not going to stick the landing...
I loved the way the episode was structured/unfolded, but overall that was the first one that I thought really missed the mark. Blue-face black-face Doctor Manhattan just didn't work for me at all. In fact, they went with the option I feared the most, and he was even worse than I expected that option could be. They really botched that aspect, IMO. And if they don't explain why he fell in love with Angela in the first place, beyond the paradoxical angle - as in, what makes her worthy of not only being the central character of this series, but worthy of the love of a literal god - this series will likely end on a pretty low note for me.
I have a few more questions/issues, but I think I need to let this episode sit with me a little longer first. Gut instinct, though, is that they're not going to stick the landing...
It really was.
I was on the fence with how they were portraying Jon at first, but it worked and they gave solid story reasons for it as they went along. Really enjoyed how they dealt with Jon's perception of time and how it tied into his initial meeting with Angela, that was really well done and was pretty funny on a few occasions.
I know we're going to have a reason for why Jon chose how he did, so I'm really curious to see how they tie all that together. And the post credits scene was...interesting There is a lot to wrap up in one episode next week.
I was on the fence with how they were portraying Jon at first, but it worked and they gave solid story reasons for it as they went along. Really enjoyed how they dealt with Jon's perception of time and how it tied into his initial meeting with Angela, that was really well done and was pretty funny on a few occasions.
I know we're going to have a reason for why Jon chose how he did, so I'm really curious to see how they tie all that together. And the post credits scene was...interesting
There is a lot to wrap up in one episode next week.
I actually thought that kind of worked. In the moment where he falls in love with her, I took it as her being the first person to truly selflessly love him. Everyone else has always had some sort of agenda with him from the US government to other heroes, and even in his relationship in the comic Laurie seemed to be much more concerned with her own needs than his.
Quote:
I was on the fence with how they were portraying Jon at first, but it worked and they gave solid story reasons for it as they went along.
See, I had the exact opposite reaction. Those "solid" reasons felt so incredibly forced to me. Nothing Doctor Manhattan did after leaving Europa makes any sense to me whatsoever. It feels like they needed him to fall in love with the main character... just because. Again, I'm in 100% agreement that it was super cool how the episode was structured around his perception of time, but at its core, everyone's motivations for doing really anything in this episode felt like the writers desperately trying to fit together the pieces they created, in not-so-successful fashion, right down to their terribly executed depiction of Doctor Manhattan.
fig96 said:
I actually thought that kind of worked. In the moment where he falls in love with her, I took it as her being the first person to truly selflessly love him. Everyone else has always had some sort of agenda with him from the US government to other heroes, and even in his relationship in the comic Laurie seemed to be much more concerned with her own needs than his.
If that's the case, I'm all for it, and it'd help tremendously. I just didn't get that impression in this episode.
fig96 said:
I actually thought that kind of worked. In the moment where he falls in love with her, I took it as her being the first person to truly selflessly love him. Everyone else has always had some sort of agenda with him from the US government to other heroes, and even in his relationship in the comic Laurie seemed to be much more concerned with her own needs than his.
That's how I interpreted it as well. Still super intrigued about what and how Veidt is going to do in the finale
One thing I did chuckle at was Abdul-Mateen stopping bullets just like Neo, knowing he's now cast as one of the leads in the next Matrix, which he probably didn't even audition for until after he shot that scene.
I think this might be my favorite tv show ever.
That episode was a *********SciFi masterpiece.
That episode was a *********SciFi masterpiece.
Loved the episode. They could have stretched that episode a couple more hours and I wouldn't have minded one bit.
Not only would I not mind if they extended it a couple more hours, I don't think I'd even notice if they did. This is how you make a TV show.Bones08 said:
Loved the episode. They could have stretched that episode a couple more hours and I wouldn't have minded one bit.
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amercer said:
I think this might be my favorite tv show ever.
That episode was a *********SciFi masterpiece.
Good way to put it - this one almost felt more Twilight Zone or Star Treky than Watchmen.
I was a bit torn with the Dr. Manhattan portrayal - Billy Crudups Dr. Manhattan was pretty much perfect, but it's kinda perfect that in a Watchmen so entwined in racial themes, the Dr. Manhattan they would give us is a black guy playing a white guy that turned into a blue guy playing a black guy.
I thought they killed it. The look after he woke up wasn't perfect, but it was pretty damn good. I loved how he'd go from glowing to not glowing. That was the best episode, so far, for me.
Although, if he knew the cannon was gonna go off, why didn't he destroy it and why did he walk right in front of it? Does he want to die?
The chicken/egg scene was brilliant
Although, if he knew the cannon was gonna go off, why didn't he destroy it and why did he walk right in front of it? Does he want to die?
The chicken/egg scene was brilliant
Man, That was an amazing one hour distillation of what it means to be in love with someone. That is one of my favorite hours of TV of all time. Actually this season has a few of those. He essentially gives his life for her because she's willing to do it for him. That plus the paradox.
I have no idea how the **** they came up with this, wrote it, and executed it so damn well. What a flat out masterpiece
I have no idea how the **** they came up with this, wrote it, and executed it so damn well. What a flat out masterpiece
So I was able to watch it tonight.
I liked the physical portrayal of Manhattan more in the movie than that episode, but this was still good, and the writing for that episode was awesome.
I'm thinking this isn't the end of Manhattan, and all of this chicken and egg stuff, can't stop the future stuff, was him putting his plan in place from the very first moment he meets Angela (or whatever moment he decides to play with time and alter the future). Was he always pre determined to fall in love with her, and her him, by telling her about the future? Or had he simultaneously lived all of these moments long enough, that through trial and error, this was the way he could lay out the future to ultimately win? Sort of like Dr Strange.
I liked the physical portrayal of Manhattan more in the movie than that episode, but this was still good, and the writing for that episode was awesome.
I'm thinking this isn't the end of Manhattan, and all of this chicken and egg stuff, can't stop the future stuff, was him putting his plan in place from the very first moment he meets Angela (or whatever moment he decides to play with time and alter the future). Was he always pre determined to fall in love with her, and her him, by telling her about the future? Or had he simultaneously lived all of these moments long enough, that through trial and error, this was the way he could lay out the future to ultimately win? Sort of like Dr Strange.
I had the Doctor Strange thought too actually, it certainly seemed like he could've stopped things from happening at that point but just sort of let it play out. Is what happened the only solution to saving the world?
I've had some time and I think I finally figured out what's bugging me about this episode, which actually doesn't have much to do with the episode itself (save for how they chose to portray the look of Doctor Manhattan). So here it is...
Why is this series about Angela Abar?
Because eight episodes in, with only one left, I still don't quite get it. I don't understand why an entire new iteration and expansion of a seminal graphic novel was created primarily to service her. Because up until now, for the most part, she's been someone who only has things happen to her. She happened to be the granddaughter of the first superhero. Her parents happened to die in a tragic bombing. Her grandmother happened to have a heart attack and die right in front of her. Doctor Manhattan happened to fall in love with her. Then her police chief happened to hang himself. Don't get me wrong, that all makes for great, rich, motivational backstory material. But that's all her character seems to be: backstory and almost nothing else. More importantly, none of those things were CHOICES she made. And in storytelling, that's what character is: the choices they make, the actions they take. But so far, eight episodes in, her life has seemingly been nothing more than a series of never-ending inciting incidents with no true forward-moving agency on her part. Sure, she's taken initiative to further understand her past, but her present seems to be nothing more than a constant looking back. And that's fine, I guess, on a certain level, but it just hasn't yet felt worthy of such a herculean task (i.e. realizing a sequel to Watchmen). It's like the entire series exists solely to examine the 35 years between it and the original.
So when Doctor Manhattan walked into that bar tonight, and made his love for Angela apparent, that's when it hit me on a subconscious level... why is not only *he* in love with her, but why is *this show* in love with her? A character who really hasn't truly done anything to earn that love or attention via the choices she's made.
I love why Doctor Manhattan created his utopia on Europa. How they tied it to his childhood, with him honoring the couple who took him and his father in, was great stuff. What I don't get is why he then had to leave for Angela. Ironically, I get it on a paradoxical level, I just don't get it on a story telling level. I actually think the way MBAR worded it above is beautiful, and goes a long way... Doctor Manhattan gave his life for Angela because she was willing to give her life for his. And the trippy, paradoxical nature of the way that was depicted is usually something I'm really into when it comes to stuff like this. But for whatever reason, Angela's character still rings a bit hollow to me, and thus so did that moment. The best way I can put it is that Angela simply hasn't "earned" it yet. I like her as a character and I think Regina King absolutely nails the role, but again, I just don't quite yet understand why this series *had* to be about her. For me, it's like Harry Potter or any other "chosen one" stories that always kind of bug me in that the main character just is special simply because the story says they're special. That's a bit what Angela still feels like. She's the main character because she's special and she's special because she's main the character. But what is she actually *doing* to earn the existence of this series? What does she want? What choices has she made and what consequences have sprung from those choices that thrust the story forward? And what is Lindelof trying to say through her? I can half-answer a couple of those question, but for the most part I'm still drawing a blank.
Anyway... there's obviously still an entire episode to bring it all home, so I don't mean to gripe prematurely. I still of course love the series and I loved a lot about tonight's episode. I just think the one-two punch of blue-face/black-face Doctor Manhattan (which I really, truly thought was a terrible makeup job) + my Angela issue kept me from loving what was otherwise a memorable and brilliantly structured episode.
Why is this series about Angela Abar?
Because eight episodes in, with only one left, I still don't quite get it. I don't understand why an entire new iteration and expansion of a seminal graphic novel was created primarily to service her. Because up until now, for the most part, she's been someone who only has things happen to her. She happened to be the granddaughter of the first superhero. Her parents happened to die in a tragic bombing. Her grandmother happened to have a heart attack and die right in front of her. Doctor Manhattan happened to fall in love with her. Then her police chief happened to hang himself. Don't get me wrong, that all makes for great, rich, motivational backstory material. But that's all her character seems to be: backstory and almost nothing else. More importantly, none of those things were CHOICES she made. And in storytelling, that's what character is: the choices they make, the actions they take. But so far, eight episodes in, her life has seemingly been nothing more than a series of never-ending inciting incidents with no true forward-moving agency on her part. Sure, she's taken initiative to further understand her past, but her present seems to be nothing more than a constant looking back. And that's fine, I guess, on a certain level, but it just hasn't yet felt worthy of such a herculean task (i.e. realizing a sequel to Watchmen). It's like the entire series exists solely to examine the 35 years between it and the original.
So when Doctor Manhattan walked into that bar tonight, and made his love for Angela apparent, that's when it hit me on a subconscious level... why is not only *he* in love with her, but why is *this show* in love with her? A character who really hasn't truly done anything to earn that love or attention via the choices she's made.
I love why Doctor Manhattan created his utopia on Europa. How they tied it to his childhood, with him honoring the couple who took him and his father in, was great stuff. What I don't get is why he then had to leave for Angela. Ironically, I get it on a paradoxical level, I just don't get it on a story telling level. I actually think the way MBAR worded it above is beautiful, and goes a long way... Doctor Manhattan gave his life for Angela because she was willing to give her life for his. And the trippy, paradoxical nature of the way that was depicted is usually something I'm really into when it comes to stuff like this. But for whatever reason, Angela's character still rings a bit hollow to me, and thus so did that moment. The best way I can put it is that Angela simply hasn't "earned" it yet. I like her as a character and I think Regina King absolutely nails the role, but again, I just don't quite yet understand why this series *had* to be about her. For me, it's like Harry Potter or any other "chosen one" stories that always kind of bug me in that the main character just is special simply because the story says they're special. That's a bit what Angela still feels like. She's the main character because she's special and she's special because she's main the character. But what is she actually *doing* to earn the existence of this series? What does she want? What choices has she made and what consequences have sprung from those choices that thrust the story forward? And what is Lindelof trying to say through her? I can half-answer a couple of those question, but for the most part I'm still drawing a blank.
Anyway... there's obviously still an entire episode to bring it all home, so I don't mean to gripe prematurely. I still of course love the series and I loved a lot about tonight's episode. I just think the one-two punch of blue-face/black-face Doctor Manhattan (which I really, truly thought was a terrible makeup job) + my Angela issue kept me from loving what was otherwise a memorable and brilliantly structured episode.
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