Did Sweden end up taking the best approach?

304,832 Views | 1675 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Enzomatic
Gordo14
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nortex97 said:

amercer said:

Yes, yes any data you disagree with is "utterly meaningless"

Europe has outbreaks, shuts things down and the numbers go down. The US does what we do and we get the numbers we get.
Please share the metrics showing shut down dates, by country, and decreases in cases. Thanks in advance.

Your chart lacked any meaning related to the conclusion you tried to draw, sorry.


France october 30th to december 15th. Italy Nov. 6th (regional most pop. Dense and colder areas with active spread). England Nov 5th - december 2nd.

Lines up perfectly with a steep drop in cases in all three countries. Unless you want to argue they all magically hit herd immunity immediately upon government action like a lot of people on this board were doing in the summer.
Keegan99
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AG
If government policy drives the curve, then explain the Dakotas.

NASAg03
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Gordo14 said:

nortex97 said:

amercer said:

Yes, yes any data you disagree with is "utterly meaningless"

Europe has outbreaks, shuts things down and the numbers go down. The US does what we do and we get the numbers we get.
Please share the metrics showing shut down dates, by country, and decreases in cases. Thanks in advance.

Your chart lacked any meaning related to the conclusion you tried to draw, sorry.


France october 30th to december 15th. Italy Nov. 6th (regional most pop. Dense and colder areas with active spread). England Nov 5th - december 2nd.

Lines up perfectly with a steep drop in cases in all three countries. Unless you want to argue they all magically hit herd immunity immediately upon government action like a lot of people on this board were doing in the summer.
Convenient that you failed to include Germany, the one country that didn't have a massive outbreak on the first wave, but is now seeing cases and deaths continue to climb beyond the first wave.

Correlation =! causation
NASAg03
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Keegan99 said:

If government policy drives the curve, then explain the Dakotas.


Wyoming's curve looks exactly the same, and bars and dance clubs in Cheyenne are still open till 2am, masks are not required anywhere in town (it's up to the owner's discretion), and restaurants have all booths and tables open. There might be some limits on indoor seating, but not much.

I know because I go there pretty much every weekend to avoid the insanity in Denver.
ORAggieFan
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Gordo14 said:

gougler08 said:

Gordo14 said:

That doesn't mean interventions and actions are useless. Yes the virus will spread quicker and more effectively in the winter, but there's still a difference between what the spread would look like everyone was acting like it's 2019 vs what we are doing today vs what we could be doing. Actions aren't useless just because it's spreading...

Also, it is interesting how you ignore the data from Europe, given the sudden sharp reversal they've seen. They have similar climate to the US, they are more population dense, generally speaking, and they are equally as concerned about identifying this "casdemic". This "casedmic" just happens to cause well over 500,000 excess deaths in the US in 2020 - a majority of which just happened to have respiratory symptoms that indicated viral infection, yet wasn't the flu - and a massive increase in hospital patients that just happen to be cases I guess.


We are at 500k now?


Excess deaths. Yes. Official COVID deaths, no.
Because lockdowns drive death. This will continue for years as depression and substance abuse take their toll. Then we can add in the estimated 5.5 million life years lost by our youth due to lack of education.
Keegan99
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AG
The entire Twitter thread is illuminating. It clearly demonstrates the impact of climate and geography, showing the obvious regional trends. The NPIs are theater.

As for excess deaths in the US...

GAC06
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AG
Looks like we were under the expected number in 2018-19 which would also factor into higher numbers after
ORAggieFan
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GAC06 said:

Looks like we were under the expected number in 2018-19 which would also factor into higher numbers after
This is part of the reason Sweden is higher than neighboring countries, Sweden death due to flu the last two years is far below average while the neighboring countries were above average. The more old people you have available to die, the more old people will die.
tysker
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Not just seasonality but gulf stream and local climate has to have a lot to do with it too, no?
Here is a latitude map between US and European cities transposed to give a relative appreciation of latitude that we dont often get on 2D maps



edit: map from the brilliantmaps.com website
nortex97
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It absolutely does. Temperate/Mediterranean climates are vastly different, for instance, vs. Miami, or Iceland. It's absurd to lump huge geographies together in any kind of meta-analysis about an upper respiratory virus. See for instance all of the videos/analysis by Ivor Cummins.

Also, I've asked but there's not any data, in fact just the opposite, tying the cycles of hard/full lockdowns in places like Italy to the cases/deaths there (factoring in the 1-2 week gestation period). It's a lie to say, without any evidence, just based on a 'feeling' that Europe is doing better thanks to 'lockdowns.'

Compare regionally/climate/demographically similar countries using different methods (such as lockdown vs. not) and use meaningful metrics...it doesn't....make....any....sense.

tysker
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Quote:

Compare regionally/climate/demographically similar countries using different methods (such as lockdown vs. not) and use meaningful metrics...it doesn't....make....any....sense.
Been arguing that preemptive lockdowns in March didnt help much at all in South or Southwest (and maybe not the West). It only lit a political fire and confused an already under-informed and irritated populous.
cone
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im waiting for someone to describe what exactly is changing that's making this a seasonal outbreak

is it just fluid dynamics with colder, drier air? less sunlight?

i've never bought the glib analysis that people are more cooped up indoors. it's something much more intrinsic than that.
Agsrback12
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It's pretty genius. Get sinus infection, flu, cold, etc and go get a COVIDs test. Positive. Add it to the books.

Go home and take Zinc. You'll be fine.
nortex97
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What are you waiting for? It appeared mid-flu season in a global conflagration because it was a new virus.

ILI is always seasonal. The CDC tracks corona viruses as part of ILI total case numbers, for instance. So does the WHO.

The theory as to why is that cool, dry air dries out mucus membranes (as does heated air that is also dry indoors) and that allows more penetration into the upper respiratory tracts of the membranes by the virus into the human...respiratory system. This goes from both nasal/throat passages...down into the lungs. This is available information widely studied/known for many decades now.

ILI case minimization has never correlated with paper masks/lockdowns. If anything, they are counter-productive.
tysker
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cone said:

i've never bought the glib analysis that people are more cooped up indoors. it's something much more intrinsic than that.
I've argued that being 'cooped up' in subway cars, buses and trains were why we saw such a great early spread in NY and NJ. Which extended up and down the Acela corridor from Boston to DC. Commutes in and out of NYC are densely packed and are often an hour or more so there was plenty of chance for exposure. Its just those areas went through their phase quickly because of the reliance on mass transit. The other areas of the country without as much mass transit are going through their phases with a much more irregular pattern because they are occurring with lockdowns and protocols already in place.
PJYoung
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/15/world/europe/sweden-coronavirus-restrictions.html

Quote:

In Sweden, Infections and Calls for a Lockdown Are Rising

The country has been keeping restaurants and bars open, trying not to let the pandemic disrupt life. But the second wave is forcing the authorities to reconsider their approach.

Sweden has been an outlier in the pandemic: It eschewed lockdowns and kept restaurants, bars, schools, movie theaters and gyms mostly open. And while death rates were high compared to its Nordic neighbors, they were comparable to those of larger European countries.

Now, a second wave has brought a new surge in infections and Stockholm's emergency services are overrun, forcing the authorities to recalibrate their approach. They imposed new restrictions at the end of November that bring the country's response somewhat more in line with the rest of Europe. They include drastic cutbacks on the size of public gatherings and some school closures.

But with ski lifts, restaurants and bars all remaining open, Sweden's tougher restrictions still pale in comparison to the rest of Europe and there are mounting concerns that not enough is being done. Intensive-care beds in hospitals in the Stockholm region are all currently occupied, Bjorn Eriksson, a regional health director, said at a news conference on Tuesday.

"We are far beyond 100 percent of capacity in intensive care. We are approaching almost double the number of available spaces," he said.

Since the pandemic began, a debate has raged both inside and outside of Sweden over how to curb the virus.As other countries went into lockdown in the spring, Sweden stayed open out of concern that keeping everyone holed up at home would have long-term detrimental effects on children and adults and could lead to depression, suicide, postponed health care and job losses.

Quote:

On Monday, the Swedish prime minister, Stefan Lofven, said the country's experts had underestimated the likelihood of a second wave. It was the first time an official criticized, even obliquely, the Public Health Agency of Sweden, the expert group tasked with making coronavirus policies, and the state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell.

In October, Mr. Tegnell said that he hoped that the spread of immunity in the population would help Sweden get through the fall with a low level of cases.

"I think that most in the profession did not see a second wave coming," Mr. Lofven said in an interview with Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet.

Mr. Tegnell's agency is no longer calling all the shots on virus policy and he is having to increasingly share the stage with Swedish politicians who have taken on a more active role.
Quote:

Infection numbers and deaths have been rising steadily since October. By Tuesday, Sweden had reached a total of 320,098 cases since the beginning of the pandemic, while its neighbor Finland, with a population about half of Sweden's, has 31,110 cases, less than 10 percent of Sweden's.

Sweden's total death toll reached 7,667 as of Tuesday. The country now has 74 deaths per 100,000 people, less than the United Kingdom, with 97, but far more than its neighbor Norway, with seven.

"I'm afraid it's going to get even worse," said Karin Hildebrand, a cardiologist in the intensive care unit of the Sodersjukhuset hospital in Stockholm. "We all fear the coming weeks. We do not have enough personnel to deal with this."

Nurses have left their jobs in large numbers since the beginning of the pandemic.

"Around 3,000 nurses have quit their jobs during the first 10 months of the year," said Sineva Ribeiro, the president of the Swedish Association of Health Professionals. "Those who remained have been working very, very hard."
Quote:

While schools for children under 16 have stayed open throughout the pandemic, some are now being closed after outbreaks. A ban on serving alcohol after 10 p.m. has been implemented. On Monday, a state agency sent out mass text messages warning people to limit Christmas gatherings to a maximum of eight people.

But officials are asking, not ordering.

Under Swedish law, the government isn't allowed to force people to stay home or fine those who flout the recommendations.
Quote:

The government is drafting an emergency law that would give it powers to order lockdowns and close down businesses when the virus is spreading.
nortex97
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AG
Oh look, a NYT article with a glibly ignorant statistical comparison;


Quote:

Sweden's total death toll reached 7,667 as of Tuesday. The country now has 74 deaths per 100,000 people, less than the United Kingdom, with 97, but far more than its neighbor Norway, with seven.

The devil, as they say, is in the details...


Quote:

Many observers argue along the lines of the Latin expression post hoc ergo propter hoc, usually translated as "after this, thus because of this." The idea is that because Sweden's horrific death rates followed its refusal to lock down its society as strictly as other countries, the latter must have been the cause of the former.

We invoke another Latin expression as more pertinent to Sweden's excess corona deaths: ceteris paribus, or "all things equal." Many international observers, particularly Americans, might make the mistake of thinking that all the Nordic countries are the same Minnesota-sized countries with roughly the same language and culture and social-democratic institutions.

Not so. Sweden differs in identifiable ways from Norway, Finland, and Denmark. Moreover, the pandemic is particular, and the particulars of time and place can matter enormously.

Most people don't want to spend the time to research views opposite that of the majority/previously held positions. I'd encourage more people to do so, however.

Quote:

By using the timing of lockdowns, we discuss a more devastating argument against the belief that they would have helped Sweden much. The other Nordics rapidly closed their borders and societies around March 12, which is the date when a counterfactual Sweden could have followed its Nordic peers and done the same. According to the World Health Organization, it takes something like 12 days from first corona symptoms to death add another few days from exposure to first symptoms. We simply calculate 18 days from March 12 (the red bar in the figure below) and suggest that spread and infections before then could not have been prevented by a lockdown:


Now, sure, it is cold in all of the nordic countries (peak ILI season there), their politicians are largely under pressure to "do something" and the data denialists are advocating strongly that Sweden has uniquely failed. The data just doesn't show that, when honestly studied.
nortex97
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tysker said:

cone said:

i've never bought the glib analysis that people are more cooped up indoors. it's something much more intrinsic than that.
I've argued that being 'cooped up' in subway cars, buses and trains were why we saw such a great early spread in NY and NJ. Which extended up and down the Acela corridor from Boston to DC. Commutes in and out of NYC are densely packed and are often an hour or more so there was plenty of chance for exposure. Its just those areas went through their phase quickly because of the reliance on mass transit. The other areas of the country without as much mass transit are going through their phases with a much more irregular pattern because they are occurring with lockdowns and protocols already in place.

The massive early surge in NY/NJ deaths is also attributable to the mandate that sick elderly be admitted to their nursing homes (which in NY of course didn't get PPE or any help from the state). The decreased frequency of subway service (because the MTA was losing money) also packed more folks into fewer trains in NYC, and they did nothing to really clean the cars in service more for something like 6 critical weeks.

Again, the governments/state executives...amplified dramatically the deaths there, unapologetically.
NASAg03
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NASAg03 said:

Keegan99 said:

If government policy drives the curve, then explain the Dakotas.


Wyoming's curve looks exactly the same, and bars and dance clubs in Cheyenne are still open till 2am, masks are not required anywhere in town (it's up to the owner's discretion), and restaurants have all booths and tables open. There might be some limits on indoor seating, but not much.

I know because I go there pretty much every weekend to avoid the insanity in Denver.
I spoke too soon. WY put a new order in place Dec 8, forcing bars to close at 10pm.

This is 16 days after their peak on Nov 23, which was 1262 cases. On Dec 8 it was 668, and continued to drop. Deaths are also dropping from a peak of 27 on Dec 3.

Even conservatives want to destroy livelihoods during prime businesses season with no science to justify it. Pathetic.
nortex97
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It's driving insanity like begging healthy people to get tested (wasteful, plus more false negatives) just to drive down the per capital positive rate;

Quote:

While the program is a hopeful option, the county isn't fully confident the state will approve a variance with the county's current case numbers. In the meantime, officials are urging everyone, regardless of symptoms, to get tested for the virus, which is the best way to reduce the county's positivity rate, or percentage of positive tests out of all tests.

"When we have a high percent positivity, it's not that we want people to go get tested and hope that they're negative, just so our positivity rate goes down," Public Health Director Amy Wineland said. "A lower positivity rate means that we're doing enough testing in our community to identify those who have the virus so that we can quickly get them into isolation."
https://www.summitdaily.com/news/local/state-will-not-allow-summit-county-to-move-out-of-level-red-ahead-of-the-holidays/

This is not science, it's damned statistics, as mark Twain would say.
BiochemAg97
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Gordo14 said:

That doesn't mean interventions and actions are useless. Yes the virus will spread quicker and more effectively in the winter, but there's still a difference between what the spread would look like everyone was acting like it's 2019 vs what we are doing today vs what we could be doing. Actions aren't useless just because it's spreading...

Also, it is interesting how you ignore the data from Europe, given the sudden sharp reversal they've seen. They have similar climate to the US, they are more population dense, generally speaking, and they are equally as concerned about identifying this "casdemic". This "casedmic" just happens to cause well over 500,000 excess deaths in the US in 2020 - a majority of which just happened to have respiratory symptoms that indicated viral infection, yet wasn't the flu - and a massive increase in hospital patients that just happen to be cases I guess.
They are also about a month ahead of the US in the disease cycle. I find it interesting that when Europe started going up, we got the "OMG, the US is a month behind, things are going to get bad here in about a month", but now that Europe has passed the peak and the US is still peaking, the story is "Europe fixed it, but we haven't". Let's see where the US in a few weeks. Is US peaking now about 1 month past Europe?

Also, let's pay attention to the "sudden sharp reversal" we are seeing in UK and Germany with numbers going back up.
Gordo14
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Keegan99 said:

If government policy drives the curve, then explain the Dakotas.




Likely a change in human interaction driven by a combination of weather (people staying in houses more) and the fact that it's public knowledge that their healthcare system was on the brink in the Dakotas. The Dakotas have a small enough population with low enough population density small changes in those variables when combined with immunity can cause cases to drop - which isn't herd immunity by the way, because it's still predicated on a change in human interaction. This is not a luxury that many states in the US have. What single variable do you want to tie it to?

But you really think it's a coincidence that each of the european countries peaked in cases in order of "lockdown" about a week after they did so? Again, it's not how I think we should handle it, but that's the exact same trend we saw in the spring when you were convinced it was herd immunity. Human interaction drives the spread, and there are many ways human interaction can change, including government action. Whether you think that's the right way to do it is another discussion, but that doesn't mean government action does nothing.
ORAggieFan
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You're ignoring the European countries that didn't peak yet.
ORAggieFan
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How's that government intervention in FL vs CA working?
bigtruckguy3500
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Are you suggesting that the restrictions placed in California are intended to prevent people from getting sick enough to require hospitalization?

Are you also suggesting that that black line would be lower without any restrictions or the same?

Any thoughts on population density and demographics of California cities vs Florida cities and how this may affect numbers? I think I posted these number a few a page or two back.
Sandman98
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In consecutive posts you said the winter is responsible for both increased cases and decreased cases. Fascinating.
ORAggieFan
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bigtruckguy3500 said:

Are you suggesting that the restrictions placed in California are intended to prevent people from getting sick enough to require hospitalization?

Are you also suggesting that that black line would be lower without any restrictions or the same?

Any thoughts on population density and demographics of California cities vs Florida cities and how this may affect numbers? I think I posted these number a few a page or two back.

I'm suggesting government intervention doesn't do anything. LA has the worst of it and isn't all that dense compared to the US average. I don't think the line would be lower but I don't think it would be higher. I could make a case based on NY data that the more people go into homes the higher spread and I'll icing in SoCal where we be outside year round, that makes more sense.

Today a judge ruled SD restaurants can reopen due to lack of evidence closures prevent hospitalizations.
BBQ4Me
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Coronavirus: Swedish King Carl XVI Gustaf says coronavirus approach 'has failed' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55347021
nortex97
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They're still not doing anything remotely approaching the lockdown believers requirements;

Quote:

And on Monday, new nationwide social-distancing recommendations for the Christmas period came into force, replacing similar region-specific guidelines.

Swedes are advised to meet a maximum of eight people, gather outdoors if possible and avoid travelling by train or bus.

A formal ban on public gatherings of more than eight people remains, affecting events such as concerts, sports matches and demonstrations.

'Voluntary'

Sweden's state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, in November explained the strategy relied on a combination of legal and voluntary measures.

He told the BBC that this was, in the Swedish context, "the combination that we really believe is the best one".
I thought Covid couldn't be contracted/spread in demonstrations? Voluntary? Recommendations?
nortex97
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Mask voodoo;



Lockdown voodoo (Sweden won't match original epidemic);



PJYoung
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Quote:

Bern, 18.12.2020 - The epidemiological situation is a cause of great concern. The number of infections is very high and is continuing to rise. Hospitals and healthcare workers have been under extreme pressure for weeks and the festive period increases the risk of an even more rapid rise in cases. At its meeting on 18 December, the Federal Council, after consulting the cantons, decided to tighten national measures against the spread of the coronavirus even further. The aim is to considerably reduce the number of contacts. From Tuesday, 22 December, restaurants and bars, cultural venues and sports and leisure facilities will have to close. The Federal Council has also expanded the use of rapid tests.

The aim of the measures is to reduce case numbers rapidly and substantially, to protect people from the virus, safeguard the health service and relieve the pressure on healthcare workers. The cantons must once again be able to guarantee at all times that tests are available, contacts can be traced and isolation and quarantine requirements are respected. The new measures take effect from Tuesday, 22 December, and will apply until 22 January 2021.
nortex97
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AG
Is there a Switzerland thread?
PJYoung
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nortex97 said:

Is there a Switzerland thread?
Oops

EDIT: Close enough
PJYoung
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GAC06
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Can anyone explain why Sweden's cases continue a steady climb, but their deaths peaked two weeks ago and have dropped sharply?
 
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