Ok, you got me it's not 100% shut down. We have only lost over 16 million jobs or so in the last four weeks.
But, you got me.
But, you got me.
Did Sweden end up taking the best approach?
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Last: 6 mo ago by Enzomatic
Pumpkinhead said:
This thread probably should have been titled Did Sweden Take The Best Approach For Sweden
We saw a different first-tier country in Europe (the UK) try a 'herd immunity' approach avoiding putting significant social distancing restrictions on their population for quite awhile, and now a COVID outbreak has gotten pretty bad there and the government is facing heavy public criticism about being slow to act.
You know, your probably right.
DadHammer said:Pumpkinhead said:
This thread probably should have been titled Did Sweden Take The Best Approach For Sweden
We saw a different first-tier country in Europe (the UK) try a 'herd immunity' approach avoiding putting significant social distancing restrictions on their population for quite awhile, and now a COVID outbreak has gotten pretty bad there and the government is facing heavy public criticism about being slow to act.
You know, your probably right.
*you're
Ha, yes thank you for the spelling correction. Made me laugh, thx
You seem to believe w/o any shutdown suggestions jobs wouldn't be lost. People's behavior would have changed regardless. Don't blame the government for the job losses. Businesses would have just adjusted on their own as consumers stopped consuming. Just like easing things back won't magically have everyone spending and behaving the same as they were two months ago.DadHammer said:
Ok, you got me it's not 100% shut down. We have only lost over 16 million jobs or so in the last four weeks.
But, you got me.
We successfully made everyone afraid. Can we successfully restart our economy anytime soon now that we have done that???
That is a really cool graph. Not what it represents but it's function.
DadHammer said:
Expendable? I never said that, can you relax? Your emotional responses are not needed.
You have no idea if those same people would have died no matter when they got infected?
We will all be infected at some point. We may find the death rate for Sweden and everyone else is about the same. Neither you or I know that. Its just a discussion board.
Well for one... the entire population of Sweden is barely larger than that of NYC. I don't think the Swedish approach would work in any big city in America tbh.
I'd also have to ask... what is their country's overall health like?
Even more importantly considering those most at risk... what are their diversity statistics?
Recent article on Sweden
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/04/14/sweden-22-scientists-say-coronavirus-strategy-has-failed-as-deaths-top-1000/#5e5d306f7b6c
Sweden (Deaths = 1,033, Population Size = 10.23 million)
Finland (Deaths = 64 deaths, Population Size = 5.5 million)
Norway (Deaths = 139 deaths, Population Size = 5.4 million)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/04/14/sweden-22-scientists-say-coronavirus-strategy-has-failed-as-deaths-top-1000/#5e5d306f7b6c
Quickly looked up the death numbers for Sweden, Finland, and Norway, which are geographically right next to each other. Finland and Norway are implementing the more restrictive social distancing measures seen elsewhere in Europe.Quote:
In an opinion piece published today in Dagens Nyheter, the group of researchers from a range of top Swedish universities and research institutes make harsh criticism of the Swedish Public Health Agency and their present coronavirus strategy. They say that elected politicians must now intervene with "swift and radical measures."
The researchers say the agency has claimed on four different occasions that the spread of infection has levelled out, despite evidence to the contrary. They point out the slowdown in infections and deaths in Finland, which has implemented much more restrictive measures.
Major public events such as the start of the Swedish soccer season are postponed and the physical buildings of universities are closed, but otherwise everyday life continues. Schools remain open.
The criticism comes as the Swedish death total hits new heights. 1,033 people have now died from COVID-19 in Sweden, according to the Swedish Public Health Agency. That's an increase of 114 in the past 24 hours. The daily update also confirms that 11,445 people have tested positive in Sweden with 915 receiving or having received intensive care treatment.
Sweden (Deaths = 1,033, Population Size = 10.23 million)
Finland (Deaths = 64 deaths, Population Size = 5.5 million)
Norway (Deaths = 139 deaths, Population Size = 5.4 million)
Pumpkinhead said:
Recent article on Sweden
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/04/14/sweden-22-scientists-say-coronavirus-strategy-has-failed-as-deaths-top-1000/#5e5d306f7b6cQuickly looked up the death numbers for Sweden, Finland, and Norway, which are geographically right next to each other. Finland and Norway are implementing the more restrictive social distancing measures seen elsewhere in Europe.Quote:
In an opinion piece published today in Dagens Nyheter, the group of researchers from a range of top Swedish universities and research institutes make harsh criticism of the Swedish Public Health Agency and their present coronavirus strategy. They say that elected politicians must now intervene with "swift and radical measures."
The researchers say the agency has claimed on four different occasions that the spread of infection has levelled out, despite evidence to the contrary. They point out the slowdown in infections and deaths in Finland, which has implemented much more restrictive measures.
Major public events such as the start of the Swedish soccer season are postponed and the physical buildings of universities are closed, but otherwise everyday life continues. Schools remain open.
The criticism comes as the Swedish death total hits new heights. 1,033 people have now died from COVID-19 in Sweden, according to the Swedish Public Health Agency. That's an increase of 114 in the past 24 hours. The daily update also confirms that 11,445 people have tested positive in Sweden with 915 receiving or having received intensive care treatment.
Sweden (Deaths = 1,033, Population Size = 10.23 million)
Finland (Deaths = 64 deaths, Population Size = 5.5 million)
Norway (Deaths = 139 deaths, Population Size = 5.4 million)
True...but based on the justifications provided for the lockdowns they will have just a differently shaped curve.
Or has the narrative changed?
Sweden is certainly having a different curve than its neighbors Finland and Norway, the question is whether it will turn out to be a 'better' curve than had they done what Finland and Norway did.
Certainly, significantly more people per capita have died thus far in Sweden vs. Finland and Norway.
The researchers in Sweden who wrote the opinion piece also are arguing that the Sweden Health Agency has previously claimed the infection spread has leveled out on multiple occasions, when it hasn't yet.
Certainly, significantly more people per capita have died thus far in Sweden vs. Finland and Norway.
The researchers in Sweden who wrote the opinion piece also are arguing that the Sweden Health Agency has previously claimed the infection spread has leveled out on multiple occasions, when it hasn't yet.
Pumpkinhead said:
Sweden is certainly having a different curve than its neighbors Finland and Norway, the question is whether it will turn out to be a 'better' curve than had they done what Finland and Norway did.
Certainly, significantly more people per capita have died thus far in Sweden vs. Finland and Norway.
The researchers in Sweden who wrote the opinion piece also are arguing that the Sweden Health Agency has previously claimed the infection spread has leveled out on multiple occasions, when it hasn't yet.
If Sweden's hospitals are never overrun...which remains to be seen...then could they be said to have taken the better approach?
Sweden has 79 ICU beds total and 1800 total beds. Compare that to how many have died. The hospitals will be overrun for a while.
ORAggieFan said:
Sweden has 79 ICU beds total and 1800 total beds. Compare that to how many have died. The hospitals will be overrun for a while.
Seriously, there are only 1800 hospital beds in a country of 10 million people?
UPDATE: It looks like NYC by itself has 23,000 beds. And Sweden only has 1800?
Squadron7 said:Pumpkinhead said:
Sweden is certainly having a different curve than its neighbors Finland and Norway, the question is whether it will turn out to be a 'better' curve than had they done what Finland and Norway did.
Certainly, significantly more people per capita have died thus far in Sweden vs. Finland and Norway.
The researchers in Sweden who wrote the opinion piece also are arguing that the Sweden Health Agency has previously claimed the infection spread has leveled out on multiple occasions, when it hasn't yet.
If Sweden's hospitals are never overrun...which remains to be seen...then could they be said to have taken the better approach?
It is hard to get much on status of their hospital capacity right now, though I did find this which is updated daily, and seems to indicate as of today 887 patients in ICU.
https://www.icuregswe.org/en/data--results/covid-19-in-swedish-intensive-care/
They appear to have done a lot to try to significantly increase their hospital capacity over the past month.
This daily update site seems to indicate 887 patients in ICU on April 14th. They almost certainly have more than 79 ICU beds.ORAggieFan said:
Sweden has 79 ICU beds total and 1800 total beds. Compare that to how many have died. The hospitals will be overrun for a while.
https://www.icuregswe.org/en/data--results/covid-19-in-swedish-intensive-care/
Pumpkinhead said:This daily update site seems to indicate 887 patients in ICU on April 14th. They almost certainly have more than 79 ICU beds.ORAggieFan said:
Sweden has 79 ICU beds total and 1800 total beds. Compare that to how many have died. The hospitals will be overrun for a while.
https://www.icuregswe.org/en/data--results/covid-19-in-swedish-intensive-care/
They have to.
If they only had 1800 then their decision is actually more rational in that the hospitals will be overrun either way. Can the curve ever be flattened enough to keep from filling 1800 total beds* in a country of 10 million?
*Assuming even that ALL of them are unoccupied.
And they develop herd immunity?Squadron7 said:Pumpkinhead said:
Sweden is certainly having a different curve than its neighbors Finland and Norway, the question is whether it will turn out to be a 'better' curve than had they done what Finland and Norway did.
Certainly, significantly more people per capita have died thus far in Sweden vs. Finland and Norway.
The researchers in Sweden who wrote the opinion piece also are arguing that the Sweden Health Agency has previously claimed the infection spread has leveled out on multiple occasions, when it hasn't yet.
If Sweden's hospitals are never overrun...which remains to be seen...then could they be said to have taken the better approach?
SocialismSquadron7 said:ORAggieFan said:
Sweden has 79 ICU beds total and 1800 total beds. Compare that to how many have died. The hospitals will be overrun for a while.
Seriously, there are only 1800 hospital beds in a country of 10 million people?
UPDATE: It looks like NYC by itself has 23,000 beds. And Sweden only has 1800?
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A lot of folks pinning hopes on "herd immunity" when we aren't even positive yet that immunity lasts very long.
That isn't settled science yet
That isn't settled science yet
More like fake news.
Sweden has roughly 100 hospitals with more than 23,000 beds.
Sweden has roughly 100 hospitals with more than 23,000 beds.
Player To Be Named Later said:
A lot of folks pinning hopes on "herd immunity" when we aren't even positive yet that immunity lasts very long.
That isn't settled science yet
Speaking of settled science....do we even have any actual studies that show the efficacy of the 20 second hand wash?
Sweden has a free market economy. Their overall economic freedom is on par with the U.S.
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
But their health care system is funded by the government.BeowulfShaeffer said:
Sweden has a free market economy. Their overall economic freedom is on par with the U.S.
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
Their healthcare is funded by its citizens and administered by its government.
They , along with their Nordic neighbors have some of the best healthcare to be found anywhere.
They , along with their Nordic neighbors have some of the best healthcare to be found anywhere.
Yes, funded by taxes. The highest tax rate in Europe and second highest in the world. I've seen 50%+ tax rates for modest incomes. Income levels usually described as middle class here.Knucklesammich said:
Their healthcare is funded by its citizens and administered by its government.
They , along with their Nordic neighbors have some of the best healthcare to be found anywhere.
MERS and SARS both triggered sustained immunity.for two to three years.Player To Be Named Later said:
A lot of folks pinning hopes on "herd immunity" when we aren't even positive yet that immunity lasts very long.
That isn't settled science yet
assuming SARS-COV2 does not trigger sustained immunity would be surprising given immune system reaction to these very similar infections.
further, if for some unexpected reason SARS-COV2 does not trigger sustained immunity then hopes for a vaccine are severely impacted - we would require at minimum an annual shot i presume to induce some level of protection.
we should all pin our hopes on sustained immunity, whether 'herd immunity' happens or not.
doctors please feel free to comment on my understanding of how lack of sustained immunity would impact vaccine efficacy.
We're from North California, and South Alabam
and little towns all around this land...
and little towns all around this land...
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I certainly hope you're right.
Yes indeed, no system is perfect but nobody has to declare bankruptcy due to illness in Sweden either.
Not saying one is right or wrong but nor am I saying one is wrong or right either.
Not saying one is right or wrong but nor am I saying one is wrong or right either.
Well, if you're really worried about loss of income and poverty, you might think of giving up 12th Man Foundation donations which is likely for season tickets. This is what's so sad about the argument. People would rather an elderly person die before loss of their lifestyle.DadHammer said:
Sorry, that reply was in reference to 20%+ unemployment and poverty related deaths.
Look guys I am not going to look up every study for you on poverty and it's impacts.
You can do that yourself. The other reference was already listed many times on doctors preferring HCQ so far around the world. I am not going to repost already posted material every time you don't like an answer.
Stay off my threads or block me, I block most of you anyway when you get personal and can't debate facts.
What bothers me about all the government buyouts is it is like someone who smokes, is overweight, drinks too much, doesn't excercise, then comes to me and demand I fix them. I'll do my absolute very best but they're in that situation for a reason (and I'm not talking everyone who get ill as many are because of genetics, accidents, other). If people don't even have a couple months of financial reserves they really need a hard lesson in discipline.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/04/13/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-black-lead-vpx.cnn
A video news report discussing Swedens different approach.
A video news report discussing Swedens different approach.
You can complain about their funding model, but regardless it doesn't change the fact they have outstanding healthcare. Also, it's their country so what's it to you? Will their system work here? No.Wendy 1990 said:Yes, funded by taxes. The highest tax rate in Europe and second highest in the world. I've seen 50%+ tax rates for modest incomes. Income levels usually described as middle class here.Knucklesammich said:
Their healthcare is funded by its citizens and administered by its government.
They , along with their Nordic neighbors have some of the best healthcare to be found anywhere.
Pretty sure it's not better than mine...im not too hot on rationing and queues. I don't need permission for really anything. Maybe eurpoeans like that stuff...Knucklesammich said:
Their healthcare is funded by its citizens and administered by its government.
They , along with their Nordic neighbors have some of the best healthcare to be found anywhere.
Perhaps northern eurpoean bureaucrats are trustworthy. I wouldn't want demonstrably politicized American bureaucrats anywhere near my personal healthcare
jwoodmd said:Well, if you're really worried about loss of income and poverty, you might think of giving up 12th Man Foundation donations which is likely for season tickets. This is what's so sad about the argument. People would rather an elderly person die before loss of their lifestyle.DadHammer said:
Sorry, that reply was in reference to 20%+ unemployment and poverty related deaths.
Look guys I am not going to look up every study for you on poverty and it's impacts.
You can do that yourself. The other reference was already listed many times on doctors preferring HCQ so far around the world. I am not going to repost already posted material every time you don't like an answer.
Stay off my threads or block me, I block most of you anyway when you get personal and can't debate facts.
What bothers me about all the government buyouts is it is like someone who smokes, is overweight, drinks too much, doesn't excercise, then comes to me and demand I fix them. I'll do my absolute very best but they're in that situation for a reason (and I'm not talking everyone who get ill as many are because of genetics, accidents, other). If people don't even have a couple months of financial reserves they really need a hard lesson in discipline.
It's sad that you and the people who agree with you can't recognize that nowhere does the guy say he's worried about his own poverty. But you take a shot at his financial priorities and discipline while accusing him of being a soulless moneygrubber. Pretty sure you can't even see the line you're so far past it, and you've left the idea in a different universe of not saying something on the internet that you wouldn't say to someone's face.
Regarding financial reserves, I've been fortunate enough, along with some decisions I've made, to be able to run my own small business in a very lean mode indefinitely, and I carry no bad personal debt. But there are a lot of small businessmen I know who, while they have prudently planned for a downturn, could never have planned for a situation where they still have most of their overhead but almost no revenue. Your take about it being a mater of discipline for them is completely ignorant about the realities faced by small businesses.
And if you can't at least recognize the further reality that economic turmoil takes a tangible toll on individuals and societies which includes increased mortality and declining physical and mental health, then you're worse than the guy you're trying to ridicule.
I've about had my fill of people who refuse to recognize the validity of people's concerns about both the virus and the response. You're both equally foolish and equally engaged in counter-productive dialogue.