Westworld 3 - 2020

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TCTTS
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AG
I get your point and agree to an extent. I can understand the desensitization aspect. You beat and rape enough life-like robots, you're potentially more inclined to do so to humans as well. I can't argue with that.

That said, Caleb's actions seemed to be more about the hosts' well being than worrying what it might do mentally to his fellow soldiers.
MW03
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AG
MW03 said:

I'll tell you this much... I love the twist. And that this story is going to be about what makes up an identity. If you can just copy Delores over and over, then there is no humanity to Delores. But, if you take Delores, then go place her in other bodies handling other events and experiences, do they develop into new people separate and distinct from THE Delores? If so, then are the real?

Fascinating. Can't wait for a Delores copy to double cross THE Delores.


I posted this a month ago, and here we are after the finale. All I can say is how disappointed I am with the Halores storyline. I get that she fell in love with her family, and that losing them really allowed Halores to embrace the inner Wyatt written into Delores' code. And I get that the line about choice and Delores choosing to see the beauty in the world really underscores that Halores has chosen to see the the ugly, and that Halores has opted for annihilation much like Delores spoke to Maeve about. And it's interesting to see two characters who are the same initially, grow because of circumstance and ultimately make disparate choices.

But the way they did it. With Halores essentially flipping seemingly on a dime despite the fact that they have been attempting to show the change in Delores to Halores. It really underscores how underwhelming that particular writing and acting and direction has been, at least with that storyline. They needed another episode specifically dedicated to Halores' descent so we could understand and appreciate what she lost and why she made the disparate choice compared to Delores.
TCTTS
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100%, and very well said. Charlores' storyline up to her sudden change was the best storyline of the season. And all it would have taken was one more episode for us to buy/be invested in her change.
Loaded
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Finished watching the Season 3 finale last night. The season should have consisted of a full ten episodes. Missing was an episode or two of tangent stories, such as the time well spent with the stories of Akane and Akecheta in Season 2.

Hopefully Season 4 gets a full ten episodes to back-fill the hidden spaces of Season 3.
claym711
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This was my favorite show of the past 2 years. No way around it, season 3 was a big let down and I found myself hardly paying attention.

It's hard to place a finger on one thing that made it so far beneath season 1, and even season 2.

The flow of the storytelling was really bad. I found the sound effects especially bad. The fight scenes were also especially bad. The acting fell way off, in my opinion - that may have to do with seeing so little of Ed Harris and none of Hopkins, or the writing. There was no standout actor to anchor the season. Rachel Wood fell flat in the role outside of the park for me.

The 2 biggest moments of the season (when Delores revealed rehobaom's control of everyone, and Delores' death) were not climactic, surprising, or thought provoking. They were both just....'well here it is'

It's possible my expectations were too high.

GreasenUSA
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Good point on the sound effects. I found myself noticing several times this season that the sound mix was just... bad. Should have been highlighting certain aspects of what was happening on screen to much better effect, but instead chose to muffle them.
TCTTS
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https://www.theringer.com/2020/5/6/21249065/theories-and-mailbag-from-westworld-s3e8-crisis-theory
MBAR
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I'm curious to know what happened in the writing room. For me, the reason this show suffered this season is 100% on the writing. The acting chops are definitely there, they obviously put a ton of money into the visuals, but the writing just an incredibly weak link. Aaron Paul did his damn best to save some scenes this season. The scene on the pier, for example. I thought that scene had some really awful dialogue, but the Paul and Wood carried it and pulled it off because they were good and had chemistry together. I really think Thandie Newton was really wasted this season and her character was written in an incredibly poorly fashion. The critiques of Halores are well documented in this thread and it feels criminal to waste Ed Harris.

They are exploring some incredible topics that really lend themselves to rich and deep storytelling, so I hope they can get this **** straightened out.
TCTTS
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AG
I have to imagine the below news (from last April) had something to do with it, but it's hard to know for sure. Basically, in the middle of writing/producing season three, Nolan & Joy left Warner Bros (who produces the show, along with HBO) for a massive deal at Amazon. I don't think there's any animosity or anything like that, as they obviously wouldn't be doing a fourth season together if there was, and the deal/opportunity was probably too good to turn down. But negotiating and beginning to service the Amazon deal very well could have taken their focus away from Westworld at times. That, and Joy also prepped and shot her theatrical directing debut - a big sci-fi movie called Reminisce, set for release later this year - while producing/overseeing post production on season three of Westworld as well. In other words, at least from the outside, it appears as if Nolan and Joy probably stretched themselves too thin. Which is a shame, because another couple of episodes this season, and another polish or two on a couple of the existing scripts, could have done wonders, as the base concepts and themes this season were indeed incredible. Granted, it's not just Nolan & Joy writing Westworld - they oversee an entire writing team - but the overall plan/leadership obviously comes from the top, and I'm guessing that plan/leadership wasn't quite as focused as it was in seasons past...


https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/jonathan-nolan-lisa-joy-amazon-overall-deal-1203181858/
TMoney2007
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TCTTS said:

I get your point and agree to an extent. I can understand the desensitization aspect. You beat and rape enough life-like robots, you're potentially more inclined to do so to humans as well. I can't argue with that.

That said, Caleb's actions seemed to be more about the hosts' well being than worrying what it might do mentally to his fellow soldiers.
If you watch the second season of Altered Carbon, they have an interesting take on the end game of this.

Rich and powerful sadist seek out murder because simulated rape and murder don't satisfy them anymore

I don't know what reality would be like, but the idea of a feedback loop is an interesting one. I don't think it applies to video games because they are substantially separate from reality, whereas if there were war games with hyper-realistic human-like enemies like the hosts it might be easier to lose your grip on the difference.

The question also remains from the first season about what makes something conscious? Where is the line? Can you make something like a host sufficiently convincing without some sort of pseudo-consciousness?

Also, what the hell was Robert Ford trying to accomplish? Arnold seemed intent on exploring the questions of consciousness, but Ford just seemed to want to create a spectacle in the beginning.
Teddy Perkins
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Good objective breakdown and helps connect some dots. Specifically, his discussion on Hale's turn after her family was killed around the 6:20 mark.
TCTTS
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Yeah, that was pretty good, with some nice, clarifying insight here and there. It made me appreciate the finale just a little bit more, though still a let down overall. That said, I may at least give it a rewatch now, as it's the only episode this season I haven't watched twice.
TX AG 88
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AG
Wife and I finished this a week or so ago.

Pretty disappointed, overall. The premise was great, and the budget and photography were obviously tops. It took us through some interesting events and scenes. As a plus or minus, however you see it, I think it set a record for nudity in a series (maybe just in that one episode).

The different time-streams were confusing in the middle seasons, and unless someone sat there and took notes, I don't know how one could appreciate all the "oh, that was __fill in the blank__ 30 years ago!" moments when they finally started tying things together.

In the end, there wasn't really a person I cared about (Aaron Paul, maybe.) Maeve and Delores were slightly above "neutral" each, even though they were in opposition. William was an interesting character, and I guess I was rooting for him at the end. Bernard was good, but not that interesting and I'm not sure what he was really doing. The only character I have lasting positive feelings for is the "special ops/security" guy who died at the end, don't even remember his name.


I guess my advice to someone would be to "watch it, since it's certainly an interesting compilation of cinematography, but don't get your hopes up for an insightful or revelatory story." Things (events, people) in my life sometimes remind me of great stories or characters from them. At random moments, something will prompt me to quote Willy Loman, Alex (Clockwork Orange), George Bailey, the man with no name, or maybe even Spock or Tony Soprano. (Much more likely, to be honest it's usually Carl Spackler, H.I. McDonough, or Fletch, but that's different.) I don't think I really gained anything from the hours I put into WestWorld...
TCTTS
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You bring up a good point, re: the not caring about any particular character. That's obviously been a critique of the series in past seasons as well, but it was especially glaring this season (save for episode three, IMO, which was Charlores' incredible episode). I've been thinking about the show's issues as a whole lately, and it finally occurred to me why it's been so hard to truly care for these characters. Because it's not just that they're robots. It's that the filmmakers prioritize twists and surprises over empathy. And empathy, of course, requires us to fully understand a character's plight, yet people like Jonathan Nolan and J.J. Abrams instead think it's "cool" to shroud many of their characters' backstories and motivations in mystery, at the cost of creating a connection between them and the audience.

For instance, there was no reason whatsoever that Dolores Prime's mission this season needed some big, "All along she was trying to free humanity as well" reveal in the end. Instead, why not reveal that information to us in, say, episode one or two this season? So we understand her plight and could care whether she achieved it or not? And not only that, but make an episode or moment out of her actually coming to that realization, so we can actually root for her to succeed. But no, instead, Nolan prioritized a gotcha reveal in the end over establishing clarity and a connection with her.

They even did this for Caleb, the one human we were supposed to relate to. And it was especially underwhelming in his instance because we all guessed his general backstory (that he had been an outlier) well in advance of him realizing it himself. Imagine how much more effective it would have been had we - and he - known earlier in the season that he was an outlier who had been royally f/cked by the system. We got that to an extent in episode two, yes (by Dolores simply telling Caleb that the system was keeping him down), but had Dolores Prime revealed to Caleb soon after that he was *also* once an outlier who had been "edited" by Serac, we would have cared SO MUCH MORE about him wanting to rise up and take down Serac from that point on.

It's like, if Nolan or Abrams would have written, say, Gladiator, you just know they would have waited until the very end to reveal to us that Maximus had once been a general, for no other reason than the twist of it. When, instead, giving us that info from the jump establishes a much higher level of empathy for Maximus that only builds and builds throughout the story.

I'm all for twists and turns, but not at the cost of empathy.
expresswrittenconsent
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Why the spoiler tags to read about why you don't like the characters? The show ended a month ago and there was no spoiler info covered in the tags.
MW03
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TCTTS said:

You bring up a good point, re: the not caring about any particular character. That's obviously been a critique of the series in past seasons as well, but it was especially glaring this season (save for episode three, IMO, which was Charlores' incredible episode). I've been thinking about the show's issues as a whole lately, and it finally occurred to me why it's been so hard to truly care for these characters. Because it's not just that they're robots. It's that the filmmakers prioritize twists and surprises over empathy. And empathy, of course, requires us to fully understand a character's plight, yet people like Jonathan Nolan and J.J. Abrams instead think it's "cool" to shroud many of their characters' backstories and motivations in mystery, at the cost of creating a connection between them and the audience.

For instance, there was no reason whatsoever that Dolores Prime's mission this season needed some big, "All along she was trying to free humanity as well" reveal in the end. Instead, why not reveal that information to us in, say, episode one or two this season? So we understand her plight and could care whether she achieved it or not? And not only that, but make an episode or moment out of her actually coming to that realization, so we can actually root for her to succeed. But no, instead, Nolan prioritized a gotcha reveal in the end over establishing clarity and a connection with her.

They even did this for Caleb, the one human we were supposed to relate to. And it was especially underwhelming in his instance because we all guessed his general backstory (that he had been an outlier) well in advance of him realizing it himself. Imagine how much more effective it would have been had we - and he - known earlier in the season that he was an outlier who had been royally f/cked by the system. We got that to an extent in episode two, yes (by Dolores simply telling Caleb that the system was keeping him down), but had Dolores Prime revealed to Caleb soon after that he was *also* once an outlier who had been "edited" by Serac, we would have cared SO MUCH MORE about him wanting to rise up and take down Serac from that point on.

It's like, if Nolan or Abrams would have written, say, Gladiator, you just know they would have waited until the very end to reveal to us that Maximus had once been a general, for no other reason than the twist of it. When, instead, giving us that info from the jump establishes a much higher level of empathy for Maximus that only builds and builds throughout the story.

I'm all for twists and turns, but not at the cost of empathy.

There are also no stakes. To borrow a video game phrase, they are constantly respawning. Real people like William, robots like Maeve, even Delores (probably). It's hard to get emotionally attached to a character's plight when the only risk is 30 mins in the maintenance bay.
TMoney2007
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Outliers being drugged up and used to take out other outliers was a pretty good twist IMO.

The biggest part of Caleb's story that was telegraphed to me was the part about how his friend died. The whole "my friend died" vs. "I killed my friend" is a well worn trope that is usually set up with repeated flashbacks of the friend dying.
Brian Earl Spilner
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TCTTS
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Ok, that's pretty good.
TCTTS
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Teddy Perkins
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I guess Alt Shift X gave up and isn't doing a finale recap video?
TCTTS
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AG
No, they recently said it's coming. Should be here any day now. Apparently their finale recaps sometimes come weeks later because of how much they cover.
Breggy Popup
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Teddy Perkins said:

I guess Alt Shift X gave up and isn't doing a finale recap video?
Quote:

The Westworld S3E08 Explained video is nearly done! Sorry it's taken so long. This is one of the biggest Alt Shift X videos ever, about ~30 minutes long. There are a lot of problems with the S3 finale, but there are also heaps of interesting ideas and speculation to explore. The vid will be out for Patrons early next week.
Teddy Perkins
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FINALLY!
Brian Earl Spilner
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No wonder I couldn't find the thread. You bumped it by the time I reached page 2.

Quick posting.
TCTTS
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AG
I know what I'm watching tonight.
TCTTS
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AG
Man, watching this, it felt like the finale aired six months ago. Time moves so oddly nowadays. Still, good video. It simultaneously made me appreciate the thematic efforts a bit more, while also highlighting the finale's - and the season's - many issues.
Al Bula
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AG
Lost interest somewhere during episode six. The skyline shots of futuristic cities was the best part. The second best part was having tame outliers like Jesse Pinkman kill other outliers via a gamification app.
Fenrir
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So I am 5 months late on this season but I just watched it all. it's just so stark how much the writing/dialog has fallen from season 1. Just compare any scene involving Hopkins in season 1 to whatever you think is the best of season 3. They are light-years apart. I normally would hate to see a decent sci-fi show end prematurely, but seeing how far this show has fallen bums me out. I'm not sure who I am supposed to give a **** about anymore.

I will give season 4 a chance more than likely...but I don't have near the investment going into season 4 that I did 2 or 3.
TCTTS
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AG
I still stay the first half of season three was mostly incredible - just some all-time great sci-fi concepts, executed extremely well - but yeah, the second half was a mess, with only a few cool moments here and there, that has only gotten worse (or, rather, more forgettable) with time. I'm still interested in season four, and will definitely watch, but I'm right there with you in that I have zero investment in any characters going into it. Especially compared to how much I absolutely couldn't wait for season three after such a phenomenal season two finale.
Fenrir
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It's probably not a good thing that the character I felt the most about was serac. Maybe it's because we got his backstory in a more normal manner whereas Caleb was more or less dumped on us at the end as a twist. Problem being I just didn't care about him much anyway so the twist didn't resonate for me.

What they've given Ed Harris to work with was criminal although seeing him beat the **** out of his younger selves was a highlight.
TCTTS
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AG
Agreed on all accounts. The Ed Harris thing, in particular, was so frustrating. If only because the group therapy session with all of his various selves was so incredibly good, and seemed to give him a renewed self-awareness, purpose, arc, etc. But then they did absolutely nothing with it. And then seemingly killed him and replaced him with a host version of himself soon after. That said, it *does* sound like the real William likely lives. There's been some analysis of the footage and a couple of interviews since that point to the real version of him surviving, so we'll see.
amercer
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I was thinking about Veep this morning because of the debate last night. And that reminded me that I don't have HBO anymore. Which reminded me that I only really had HBO to watch Westworld, which reminded me how disappointing season 3 was. (And specifically how their after credit scenes the last two years have just been massive ****ups) .

Anyway, I guess I'll watch season 4 in 2023 or whenever it gets made, but I can't say that I care about any of the characters or continuing plot lines. They closed off the interesting stuff and wasted the characters.
cr0wbar
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Blind post since I haven't read the thread in a bit for spoilers:

Episode 6 Decoherence was probably my favorite episode of this entire series.

The William existential crisis only to be pulled outta his own simulation by two hosts (woah). Can you imagine how absolutely mind ****ed he is right now?

Serac flexin' hostile takeover, trying to cut off two Dolores copies inside WW.

The absolute dunk of Dolores on Maeve by wiping Hector.
-It's a Jungle out there kiddies, have a very fruitful day-

cr0wbar
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Ok - felt like we lost some momentum from E6 down the stretch. I wasn't crazy about Maeve changing her mind right at the finish line "...I didnt understand her (Dolores) motivations until the very end..." Bah, REALLY?!

Hoboam/Serac - I got Rick & Morty vibes from the computer doing all the speaking for Serac. That kinda took the wind out of my sails.

I still have no idea how Charlores(?) was able to remote speak and remote lock her out. Something with the blue eyes?

And REALLY sucks that William has revelation in AR therapy and then he gets ICED in the post scene credits? Big Yikes
 
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