Westworld 3 - 2020

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TCTTS
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TV Casualty said:

oragator said:

Why, if he wanted Maeve for one special purpose was the whole war world thing even relevant?


It seems they created the simulation to trick her into providing information on the forge. How to get around the encryption and find where all the host data was sent. When she couldn't provide that information Serac became aware that it wasn't Maeve that did it, but another host.

Then Serac brought Maeve into the real world to get her to track down Delores.

Still doesn't make sense that with all the surveillance in the park that they wouldn't recognize that Delores was the host causing all this trouble. I guess we just have to look past things like that in order to retain continuity of the actors.

We've seen her powers in the real world. She can control all kinds of security/surveillance equipment now. So I don't doubt that she either had that ability at the end of season two in the park as well - or - she simply erased all video/surveillance evidence of her efforts around the time she began erasing the library in The Forge. Better yet, she could have even covered her tracks in the park somehow when she was posing as Charlotte, who no doubt had top clearance to cover things up however she saw fit. I mean, she literally framed Bernard. So that seems like a pretty minor complaint, considering the myriad ways it could feasibly and believably be brushed aside.
amercer
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Rehoboam is a giant pearl
M.C. Swag
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Felt like a total waste of an episode. I don't understand why it was even necessary to do the "maeve in the simulation." Like, delete that whole sequence and start with her waking up in the white dress to have that convo with Serac and what changes?
NASAg03
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Interesting observation that as the hosts gain self awareness and start partitioning various information, humans can't just plug in a wire and download their secrets.

Hacking turns into social engineering, and they built an entire virtual world to do it.

I was surprised how many questions were answered in this second episode. Definitely not drawing out this season.
Mike Shaw - Class of '03
bobinator
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I had guessed earlier that everything with Maeve was fake, but it was still cool how the aspect ratio changed as she figured it out. I thought that was exceptionally well done.
amercer
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M.C. Swag said:

Felt like a total waste of an episode. I don't understand why it was even necessary to do the "maeve in the simulation." Like, delete that whole sequence and start with her waking up in the white dress to have that convo with Serac and what changes?


They are setting up the possibility that anything we see moving forward isn't real. It dovetails nicely with Bernards paranoia.

How many other pearls were in the sim lab?
Mantis Toboggan MD
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Westworld park security continues its laughable ineptitude in season 3. This episode they fall for the ol' battle axe behind the back trick.
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bobinator
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I don't really think they're setting that up, I think the point was more to point out how good Maeve is at working through systems of systems to accomplish her goals.

He could hire anyone to hunt down Dolores, but Maeve knows Dolores better than they do.

The whole thing was basically a test to see how good Maeve was.
M.C. Swag
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amercer said:

M.C. Swag said:

Felt like a total waste of an episode. I don't understand why it was even necessary to do the "maeve in the simulation." Like, delete that whole sequence and start with her waking up in the white dress to have that convo with Serac and what changes?


They are setting up the possibility that anything we see moving forward isn't real. It dovetails nicely with Bernards paranoia.

How many other pearls were in the sim lab?
That was already established with Will (Man in black) at the end of S2.
bobinator
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Yeah the battle ax bit was weird...

I still assume that park security are all hosts given basically no intelligence. It's the only way to explain how laughably inept they are.
Brian Earl Spilner
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I thought crippling the system by asking people the square root of -1 was both brilliant and hilarious.
Big Tuna
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This season has put last year to shame. I understand the ratings are down. I think that has much more to do with last season's bull**** and GoT being such a terrible season than anything. This has been a more watchable and much more interesting season than last.
BenFiasco14
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Big Tuna said:

This season has put last year to shame. I understand the ratings are down. I think that has much more to do with last season's bull**** and GoT being such a terrible season than anything. This has been a more watchable and much more interesting season than last.


Much easier to follow and the "goal" the characters are working towards is much more clear. Last season was a convoluted mess.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
TCTTS
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M.C. Swag said:

Felt like a total waste of an episode. I don't understand why it was even necessary to do the "maeve in the simulation." Like, delete that whole sequence and start with her waking up in the white dress to have that convo with Serac and what changes?

Filmmaking 101... SHOW, don't tell.

We start with Maeve waking up in the white dress and all that scene is is Serac telling Maeve and the audience how brilliant/resourceful she is. It's Serac telling Maeve that he wants the coordinates to The Valley Beyond. But that's boring and void of drama. It's so much more satisfying SEEING those things play out. We SAW just how impressive Maeve can be. We SAW the lengths Serac is willing to go to to acquire the coordinates. Now we're so much more invested in their plights.

Not to mention, the Bernard/Stubbs team-up was crucial as well. We needed to see them come together and build that bond. Granted, I was little disappointed when I realized we weren't going back to the Dolores/Caleb story this episode, as I'm more interested in that storyline than anything else, but I get the strategy here. Two episodes to get the three storylines in motion (Dolores/Caleb, Maeve/Serac, and Bernard/Stubbs) feels about right. The table is now set. I agree with the previous sentiments here... this season is far more focused than the previous two in terms of compelling, clear cut goals and motivations. But we had to take the time to establish those goals and motivations, or we wouldn't be as amped to see how all of these factions collide.
TCTTS
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Mantis Toboggan MD said:

Westworld park security continues its laughable ineptitude in season 3. This episode they fall for the ol' battle axe behind the back trick.


Agreed that this was pretty dumb. Stubbs with an axe? Awesome. Stubbs with an axe fighting off a bunch of trained soldiers with guns? Lame. It was even worse the second time around. The guys in the back of the pack panic the second Stubbs reveals the ax, as if they aren't armed and couldn't put him down in a spit second. That was a really weird sequence.
TV Casualty
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Did something seem off about the Stubbs and Bernard scenes to anyone else?

It looked like at times there was motion blurring happening. It was very subtle, but made it seem almost like a dream sequence.

I will have to go back and check to make sure it wasn't just some issue with my stream or something.
Jim01
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I loved episode 1 but this one was a dud to me.

Starts off with two hacky revelations "I saw you die!" for the writer and "You're one of us!" for Stubbs.

Then Stubbs was just pretty badly written I thought.

- "This is why I'm looking forward to retirement." Really? I feel like it was established at the beginning of this episode that when faced with no job you'd rather KILL yourself!

- "Why does Deloris do anything? Why did she bring you back?" Again. Really? He literally just explained that to you 5 minutes ago.

Also felt the GOT moment was an eye roller.

I just felt it was drawn out and blah and paled in comparison to the premiere.
TCTTS
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Quote:

- "This is why I'm looking forward to retirement." Really? I feel like it was established at the beginning of this episode that when faced with no job you'd rather KILL yourself!

"Retirement" meant kill himself in this instance. He was clearly making a joke. IMO, I thought Stubbs was excellent this episode. He was wry and funny and it was a nice change of pace to see a host be "aware" but simultaneously just roll with his programming. His "free will" comment to Bernard was especially poignant, and a nice little laugh. The Bernard/Stubbs team-up so far has been one of my favorite of the series.
M.C. Swag
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TCTTS said:

M.C. Swag said:

Felt like a total waste of an episode. I don't understand why it was even necessary to do the "maeve in the simulation." Like, delete that whole sequence and start with her waking up in the white dress to have that convo with Serac and what changes?

Filmmaking 101... SHOW, don't tell.

We start with Maeve waking up in the white dress and all that scene is is Serac telling Maeve and the audience how brilliant/resourceful she is. It's Serac telling Maeve that he wants the coordinates to The Valley Beyond. But that's boring and void of drama. It's so much more satisfying SEEING those things play out. We SAW just how impressive Maeve can be. We SAW the lengths Serac is willing to go to to acquire the coordinates. Now we're so much more invested in their plights.

Not to mention, the Bernard/Stubbs team-up was crucial as well. We needed to see them come together and build that bond. Granted, I was little disappointed when I realized we weren't going back to the Dolores/Caleb story this episode, as I'm more interested in that storyline than anything else, but I get the strategy here. Two episodes to get the three storylines in motion (Dolores/Caleb, Maeve/Serac, and Bernard/Stubbs) feels about right. The table is now set. I agree with the previous sentiments here... this season is far more focused than the previous two in terms of compelling, clear cut goals and motivations. But we had to take the time to establish those goals and motivations, or we wouldn't be as amped to see how all of these factions collide.
We knew how resourceful Maeve was already but I digress. The whole simulation sequence just felt like a stall to me. And to be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure wtf the valley of the beyond or it's 'coordinates' do/are. Maybe I missed something, but I don't really understand Delos, Incite, Serac, Rohamwhatever, the forge, valley....and how they fit. It's not making me understand "Serac"...it's just further convoluting what the actual conflict at play is even about.

As for Bernard, the plot had to do some serious hand-waving to justify Bernard/Arnold/Armand going back to Westworld and do little more than retrieve Stubbs as easily as I go to pickup groceries. Not a huge deal but couldn't help but perceive it as a direct consequence of them not mapping out the narrative beyond S2.

I'm not ready to make any sweeping conclusions about this season just yet, but I'm not too encouraged either. Your sentiment about it being more focused seems...premature. It's been 2 episodes and I'm not a fan of the show just shelving Dolores and Caleb for an entire episode (as it feels the opposite of what a focused show would do).
TCTTS
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TCTTS
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M.C. Swag said:

TCTTS said:

M.C. Swag said:

Felt like a total waste of an episode. I don't understand why it was even necessary to do the "maeve in the simulation." Like, delete that whole sequence and start with her waking up in the white dress to have that convo with Serac and what changes?

Filmmaking 101... SHOW, don't tell.

We start with Maeve waking up in the white dress and all that scene is is Serac telling Maeve and the audience how brilliant/resourceful she is. It's Serac telling Maeve that he wants the coordinates to The Valley Beyond. But that's boring and void of drama. It's so much more satisfying SEEING those things play out. We SAW just how impressive Maeve can be. We SAW the lengths Serac is willing to go to to acquire the coordinates. Now we're so much more invested in their plights.

Not to mention, the Bernard/Stubbs team-up was crucial as well. We needed to see them come together and build that bond. Granted, I was little disappointed when I realized we weren't going back to the Dolores/Caleb story this episode, as I'm more interested in that storyline than anything else, but I get the strategy here. Two episodes to get the three storylines in motion (Dolores/Caleb, Maeve/Serac, and Bernard/Stubbs) feels about right. The table is now set. I agree with the previous sentiments here... this season is far more focused than the previous two in terms of compelling, clear cut goals and motivations. But we had to take the time to establish those goals and motivations, or we wouldn't be as amped to see how all of these factions collide.
We knew how resourceful Maeve was already but I digress. The whole simulation sequence just felt like a stall to me. And to be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure wtf the valley of the beyond or it's 'coordinates' do/are. Maybe I missed something, but I don't really understand Delos, Incite, Serac, Rohamwhatever, the forge, valley....and how they fit. It's not making me understand "Serac"...it's just further convoluting what the actual conflict at play is even about.

As for Bernard, the plot had to do some serious hand-waving to justify Bernard/Arnold/Armand going back to Westworld and do little more than retrieve Stubbs as easily as I go to pickup groceries. Not a huge deal but couldn't help but perceive it as a direct consequence of them not mapping out the narrative beyond S2.

I'm not ready to make any sweeping conclusions about this season just yet, but I'm not too encouraged either. Your sentiment about it being more focused seems...premature. It's been 2 episodes and I'm not a fan of the show just shelving Dolores and Caleb for an entire episode (as it feels the opposite of what a focused show would do).

I mean... this is pretty big/standard stuff that went down at the end of last season/the first episode. If you're not paying attention/comprehending the plot, that's on you, not necessarily the show. I get that the storytelling is complex at times, but we're three seasons in now. That's the show. You're either in or you're out and they're not going to spoon-feed it to you at this point. Not to mention, we've summarized all of that stuff extremely throughly in this thread over the past few weeks, and there are quite a few videos posted here as well, explaining it all pretty succinctly. Granted, I'm the first to b*tch and moan when, say, a Star Wars movies requires me to read a book to fill in a plot hole, but that's not what this is. It's all there in the show. It's just a show that requires a little more work from the audience. But it's never been shy about that - it wears its complexity on its sleeve - so complaining about that aspect at this point seems pointless.

Also, it's not just *my* sentiment that this season feels more focused than the last two. Others here clearly share that sentiment as well. Two episodes in, I don't see how anyone can say that the filmmakers aren't making an effort to make the goals, motivations, and narrative clearer than the past two seasons. They've said themselves that was the aim, and it's fairly obvious on screen. So it seems weird to tell people who find this season easier to follow so far that they're wrong.
M.C. Swag
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TCTTS said:

M.C. Swag said:

TCTTS said:

M.C. Swag said:

Felt like a total waste of an episode. I don't understand why it was even necessary to do the "maeve in the simulation." Like, delete that whole sequence and start with her waking up in the white dress to have that convo with Serac and what changes?

Filmmaking 101... SHOW, don't tell.

We start with Maeve waking up in the white dress and all that scene is is Serac telling Maeve and the audience how brilliant/resourceful she is. It's Serac telling Maeve that he wants the coordinates to The Valley Beyond. But that's boring and void of drama. It's so much more satisfying SEEING those things play out. We SAW just how impressive Maeve can be. We SAW the lengths Serac is willing to go to to acquire the coordinates. Now we're so much more invested in their plights.

Not to mention, the Bernard/Stubbs team-up was crucial as well. We needed to see them come together and build that bond. Granted, I was little disappointed when I realized we weren't going back to the Dolores/Caleb story this episode, as I'm more interested in that storyline than anything else, but I get the strategy here. Two episodes to get the three storylines in motion (Dolores/Caleb, Maeve/Serac, and Bernard/Stubbs) feels about right. The table is now set. I agree with the previous sentiments here... this season is far more focused than the previous two in terms of compelling, clear cut goals and motivations. But we had to take the time to establish those goals and motivations, or we wouldn't be as amped to see how all of these factions collide.
We knew how resourceful Maeve was already but I digress. The whole simulation sequence just felt like a stall to me. And to be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure wtf the valley of the beyond or it's 'coordinates' do/are. Maybe I missed something, but I don't really understand Delos, Incite, Serac, Rohamwhatever, the forge, valley....and how they fit. It's not making me understand "Serac"...it's just further convoluting what the actual conflict at play is even about.

As for Bernard, the plot had to do some serious hand-waving to justify Bernard/Arnold/Armand going back to Westworld and do little more than retrieve Stubbs as easily as I go to pickup groceries. Not a huge deal but couldn't help but perceive it as a direct consequence of them not mapping out the narrative beyond S2.

I'm not ready to make any sweeping conclusions about this season just yet, but I'm not too encouraged either. Your sentiment about it being more focused seems...premature. It's been 2 episodes and I'm not a fan of the show just shelving Dolores and Caleb for an entire episode (as it feels the opposite of what a focused show would do).
So it seems weird to tell people who find this season easier to follow so far that they're wrong.
Never said anyone was "wrong." Apologies if that's how it read. Just posting my thoughts is all.
redline248
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Was Maeve on ice until Serac realized she wasn't the threat? He created the illusion to find out about Dolores?

Or was she in there the whole time bc he thought she was the threat?

Did she realize her plight right away (ie the first time we see her) or was it a gradual thing?
TCTTS
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- Serac believed it to be Maeve - not Dolores - who beamed The Valley Beyond (with all the hosts uploaded inside) to the secret coordinates in the season two finale. Because Maeve had the most motivation - to get her daughter to safety - and because she displayed special powers before she died, Serac believed it was Maeve who not only knew the coordinates, but was somehow causing the divergences that Rehoboam is detecting. In Matrix terms, Serac essentially believed Maeve to be "the one." Via Rehoboam's vast and complex algorithms, Serac can basically see the future, and Rehoboam is "telling" him that if the divergences continue - and presumably if The Valley Beyond is not found - it ultimately leads to the end of mankind.

- So Serac presumably sent someone to Westworld to retrieve Maeve's brain pearl from her dead/decommissioned body (remember, she "died" at the end of season two). Now with her brain pearl in his position, Serac then created a simulation (War World + Simon) to try and trick Maeve into revealing the coordinates of The Valley Beyond.

- The first go-around of the simulation, Maeve believes it to be real and that she has been recommissioned in a still-in-operation part of Westworld. She's still the same Maeve from the end of season two, with the same memories. Only her "powers" no longer work. She realizes something is truly wrong, however, when Hector calls her "Isabella" and not Maeve. So, after killing herself in War World, Maeve wakes up in the lab, still thinking everything is real, and tries to kill herself for good with the nose thing. She saved her daughter, and she's not going to be a puppet anymore. That's when Simon shows up. Simon then places Maeve in War World once again, this time with a plan hatched between the two of them for her to join her daughter in The Valley Beyond. It's on this second go-around, however, when they're in The Forge, that Maeve realizes this isn't the real park at all - it's a digital simulation. So she and Simon go back to the lab, and this time, it's Maeve's plan that they both follow. She wakes up a third time in the War World simulation, now knowing it's a simulation, with the goal of crashing/freezing the system. The freeze then allows her the time to hack the real-world the facility in which her brain pearl is being housed, she hacks a worker robot in said facility, and unsuccessfully tries to escape with her brain pearl.

- Upon realizing that Maeve is not "the one"/didn't know the coordinates, Serac comes to the conclusion that it was Dolores - not Maeve - who beamed The Valley Beyond to the secret coordinates, and that it is Dolores who is causing the divergences. However, during the simulation, Maeve still proved her mettle, so to speak, so Serac decides to create a new, real-world body for Maeve, and puts her brain pearl inside (with all of her memories intact), with the goal of using Maeve to now track down and kill Dolores.
redline248
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I'm not sure any of that answered my questions

You answered a bunch of stuff I didn't ask, though
TCTTS
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Then maybe clarify your questions, because they're not at all clear...

"Was Maeve on ice until Serac realized she wasn't the threat?" - What does "on ice" mean? I assumed you meant the cold storage facility at Westworld, so I addressed that.

"He created the illusion to find out about Dolores?" - I answered this specifically. No, he created the illusion to try and get the coordinates to The Valley Beyond from Maeve, who he thought had them.

"Or was she in there the whole time bc he thought she was the threat?" - In where? The ice? The simulation? You're asking if he thought Dolores was the threat or Maeve? Either way, I answered this specifically as well. He initally thought Maeve was the divergence, i.e. the threat. This couldn't have been more clear in my explanation.

"Did she realize her plight right away (ie the first time we see her) or was it a gradual thing?" - This is exactly what my third point/paragraph addresses, in detail.

Apologies for doing my best to answer what I thought you were asking, by explaining literally everything anyone could possibly want to know about the overall scenario.
bobinator
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I don't get why people want answers to questions that are intentionally not yet answered by the show.

Like... that's the show.
Teddy Perkins
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Hopefully this can answer some questions.
Liquid Wrench
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Just realized I picked a fine time to drop HBO.

Oh well, still have Showtime and now have Starz for some reason. So if anyone wants to drop by and watch Duck You Sucker.:.
Proposition Joe
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Awesome episode 1.

Yawner of an episode 2.
easttexasaggie04
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I'm enjoying season 3 so far.
Definitely Not A Cop
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Proposition Joe said:

Awesome episode 1.

Yawner of an episode 2.


Kind of how I felt too. It's been mentioned already, but the one handed guy dropping a gun to pick up a battle axe to take on 6 guys with guns so he wouldn't kill them was so eye-roll-inducing that the rest of the episode was hard to take seriously.

If it continues to be at the same level as episode 1, then this could be the best season yet.
Proposition Joe
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Champ Bailey said:

Proposition Joe said:

Awesome episode 1.

Yawner of an episode 2.


Kind of how I felt too. It's been mentioned already, but the one handed guy dropping a gun to pick up a battle axe to take on 6 guys with guns so he wouldn't kill them was so eye-roll-inducing that the rest of the episode was hard to take seriously.

If it continues to be at the same level as episode 1, then this could be the best season yet.

Yeah, I felt like Episode 2 really drug us through a storyline that most of us don't currently care about (Maeve) after really knocking our socks off with the new storylines in Ep1. And then when it finally got us out of that storyline, we jumped to Bernard's storyline which consisted of a lot of mumbo-jumbo and goofy fight scenes.

I get that we're in a complicated world, but when Bernard starts talking about corruptions in his system and how he can't see them but maybe if he can jack in from the Westworld mainframe... it's all just filler, and very much how Season 2 hit a lull.

I get that Bernard and Maeve are going to play key roles, but you gotta give them more interesting/relevant things to do. At least it looks like we've got Maeve to that point now.

Can't say enough good things about EP1... everything just perfect... but really hoping EP2 was an outlier.
Tobias Funke
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This has been an incredible series, and I think the writers and directors have earned our trust enough to say "Even if episode 2 wasn't my cup of tea, I imagine a lot of this stuff will pay off and tie together really well throughout the season".

That's where I am at least.
easttexasaggie04
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I think I would have signed up for War World as a guest. But...I dunno, the wild west would have been a good time, too. Probably more to do in the west than in a war torn Italy.
 
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