Nothing at the end credits

I watched Screen Crush and Heavy Spoilers, and I left feeling no more knowledgeable but far more nerdy.

For me, forget that crap.

Hilddleston was great. Really enjoyed the season.

After sleeping on it I'm still not at all sure I understand how time works in this universe, but like I said a few episodes ago it's probably best not to think on that part too much.

How sure are we the TVs exists out of time? There were so many branches of branches expanding damn near infinitely while the Loki's were talking to HWR, I basically wrote it off as a previous time branch where the TVA also existed on the branch and Loki was sent there. But I don't think I have show basis on which to draw this conclusion.

time isn't straight its a circle. The time line was shown wrapped around the castle so i think time is continuously happening.

Right my only issue is how the TVA changed if they exist out of time. Maybe their minds were erased like someone suggested earlier

Dro07 said:

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Right my only issue is how the TVA changed if they exist out of time. Maybe their minds were erased like someone suggested earlier

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It's an alternative time line. Created when Immortus/Kang running the main time line was killed. Granted, not sure how Loki was sent back to the TVA b4 Immortus was killed but that was the best description I could think of. But if the evil Kangs came back, even though the TVA is "out of time", it could still create a Nexus event effecting the TVA even. Especially if this other Kang took control at some point.

Time doesn't work in terms of the TVA. How the TVA can even exist is not really explained. It clearly has some form of its own system of time, as events there and also within the universes that they are monitoring happen in a sequence , but it does not seem to have a relation to time as we think of it in our own lives in a single universe. For example, from the POV of the TVA... Loki escapes, Loki causes a nexus, TVA shows up, Loki escapes again, causes a nexus further back in the past, TVA shows up a second time, etc... all of that happens in a time sequence for the people at the TVA, but would make no sense for someone viewing the events in terms of time inside a single universe.

Time as we think of it exists as a characteristic of a single universe (or timeline, little t, I guess, not to be confused with the "Sacred Timeline"). A universe runs forward in time from beginning to end following its path as events within it unfold, but many parallel universes exist simultaneously, We'll use marvel's term and call it a multiverse.

It seems the natural state of the multiverse is branched like a tree, countless universes may follow a similar main branch together, but then diverge into smaller and smaller branches depending on whether nexus events happen within them or not. Other universes in the multiverse that are very close to you on the tree will be pretty much the same (ie, you can go there and borrow their infinity stone that you know will be in the same place), one that branches early and runs to the far side of the "tree" from your home universe would be very different.

He Who Remains' version of the TVA was able to manage all paths of the multiverse into one solid trunk by destroying all of the branches that didn't stay on the approved path. We have no idea what kind of "time" the castle occupied by He Who Remains was in. It seemed like maybe it was also in "TVA time"? But I think it probably wasnt. It seems like it would have to be on "another level up" where he was managing a multiverse of TVAs (and hence was dealing with the results of what happens in the TVA over and over again in a similar way that the TVA experiences events that happen in the "real" universes over and over again.

My view of the end of the episode is that he was merely the last version of Kang to bring essentially all versions of the TVA and all versions of the universe into one alignment. The end of the episode shows that the TVA must not have been only his creation, other variants of himself must have been able to create it as well, as Loki shows up in one. Each variant of him that wanted to conquer or control or to make peace even, was likely using some sort of version of the TVA to bring about their goals on a multiverse level. And since now the multiverse has branched back into chaos, these extra versions of the TVA essentially pop into existence as well. Loki is likely in a new TVA, that from his point of view has just popped into existence (although he doesnt know that). This new TVA is likely the one that is adjacent to the branch of universes that our main universe is in (ie kinda where he came from). And it seems that the TVA on our branch is probably going to be one controlled by the variant that is called Kang the Conqueror.

No I get that part, I've been on this time loop thing for weeks. It's the only way the variants make any sense.

I'm having trouble even putting the part I don't get into words, but there's just some of it that doesn't make sense to me.

I think at a minimum calling it the 'sacred timeline' when it's clearly more than one timeline was very confusing.

I think that them reaching Kang was a nexus event. He knew everything that was going to happen until it redlined. Once they hit the redline, the multiverse had started and he didn't know exactly how it would all end.

also, i love the non-MCU fans who just mindlessly assume all MCU movies/properties are the same. that's never really been the case, but it damn sure hasn't been the case with the Disney+ series.

TexasAggie_02 said:

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I think that them reaching Kang was a nexus event. He knew everything that was going to happen until it redlined. Once they hit the redline, the multiverse had started and he didn't know exactly how it would all end.

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I interpreted this as "he never let it get past a certain point before"

As I said above, he must be dealing with a multiverse of TVA's producing a multiverse of Loki's and Sylvie's in order to have the experience he said he did. What I'm imagining is that he lets it go on long enough to be in danger and then kills them, then next time he lets it go a little longer using what he's learned etc. And he's continually doing a groundhog day to try and get one of them to take over for him. Assuming he's not a liar, and the fact that he did allow himself to be killed would seem to indicate he was telling the truth. He did basically have Loki convinced, just not Sylvie, I guess he couldve tried killing Sylvie, but I guess maybe that wouldnt exactly endear him to this Loki.

There's a bit of a clone memory logic to him that I dont like. I agree that killing him and setting the multiverse free, probably would lead right back to another variant of himself doing the same thing he did, but it wouldn't be him, according to what we know.

I think them caring for each other on Lamentis created the Nexus event that proved to Kang that this might finally be the two that will work. It didn't but there was a possibility

JJxvi said:

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As I said above, he must be dealing with a multiverse of TVA's producing a multiverse of Loki's and Sylvie's in order to have the experience he said he did.

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I'm not sure this is true. I think you could accomplish this just by going multiple times through the same loop.

For me, he can't be dealing with a multiverse of TVA's or the whole thing doesn't work.

These two Loki's teaming up were a "TVA level" nexus because its the nexus that creates the conditions necessary for He Who Remains to be challenged (it requires both of them in order to get to him).

What I dont like about that nexus is that IMO it is a bit of a plot hole because of circular logic. In order to be a nexus that continues, the TVA has to save them, and the TVA saves them because a nexus was created.

I want season 2 to happen all ready. So many loose ends to tie up after that finale. It actually got me excited for what is next.

bobinator said:

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JJxvi said:

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As I said above, he must be dealing with a multiverse of TVA's producing a multiverse of Loki's and Sylvie's in order to have the experience he said he did.

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I'm not sure this is true. I think you could accomplish this just by going multiple times through the same loop.

For me, he can't be dealing with a multiverse of TVA's or the whole thing doesn't work.

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Yeah you could. It still requires him to be outside of the TVA timeline or above it all or whatever. He would also still have to build up to his knowledge groundhog day style. He cant "die" over and over in a loop though, unless he is born with the knowledge of his past lives every time, and we've seen no indication of that, and he himself indicates that the part where he gives them a choice was a boundary he had never crossed before.

Wait a sec. Miss Minutes went to the "end of time" and it explicitly showed that when she was doing that, she couldn't give Renslayer the files. Is the TVA just at the same time as that?

The last bit you can just write off as He Who Remains shenanigans. If he's trying to "pave the path" or whatever he said he could have just manipulated things.

But that's kind of what I'm talking about just having to not think too much about it.

Like here's a more fundamental one:

Loki escaping with the Tesseract was the nexus event that gets him caught by the TVA. He wasn't supposed to escape with it, I think they outright said that. Yet, if he doesn't, then there's no need for Captain America and Iron Man to go further into the past for it. So if he wasn't supposed to escape, then that also wasn't supposed to happen, making them variants as well right?

Miss Minutes is always in He Who Remains' time. I agree that scene is a bit of a hole, as it indicates that He Who Remains actions are on the same scale as the events in the TVA. It would lean it more towards Bobinators "loops" i think.

The problem with the loops is that the its hard to imagine the TVA having a beginning and an end to loop back across unless the "beginning" is the point where He Who Remains created or took control of it, and if that's the case then that point should only happen once on He Who Remains' personal timeline, not loop back forth across it.

bobinator said:

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The last bit you can just write off as He Who Remains shenanigans. If he's trying to "pave the path" or whatever he said he could have just manipulated things.

But that's kind of what I'm talking about just having to not think too much about it.

Like here's a more fundamental one:

Loki escaping with the Tesseract was the nexus event that gets him caught by the TVA. He wasn't supposed to escape with it, I think they outright said that. Yet, if he doesn't, then there's no need for Captain America and Iron Man to go further into the past for it. So if he wasn't supposed to escape, then that also wasn't supposed to happen, making them variants as well right?

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You're only a variant if you belong to a universe that branches off the path that leads to the proper end.

It implies that variants and other branches are necessary to lead to the proper ending, but only as long as they are pruned off before the futures that they create are allowed to come back and interact with the "sacred timeline" (ie other Kang's show up)

Also, its possible that maybe some or most of the time in most universes they succeed and get the Tesseract without having to go back in time again.

Yeah but they'd all be variants in the same branch. The "Loki escapes with the Tesseract" branch right?

It does bring into question what exactly Dr. Strange sees in all of the timelines where the Avengers do not succeed in Infinity War. I wonder if thats gonna come back up.