You could kind of write around this. Maybe in all of the other futures(aka timelines) he sees death and destruction and assumes it's because they lost but it's really because the TVA pruned that timeline?
***** Loki - Season 1 Discussion Thread (Wednesdays - Jun 9 - Jul 14) *****
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Last: 2 yr ago by mazag08
I think it definitely comes back up. Interestingly, Kang says infinite timelines, but Strange only saw 14 million or whatever.JJxvi said:
It does bring into question what exactly Dr. Strange sees in all of the timelines where the Avengers do not succeed in Infinity War. I wonder if thats gonna come back up.
Plus Scarlet Witch is going to be a factor. One thing I learned from Screencrush is how she is a "nexus being" meaning she's the same across all realities.
I really like the Kang character. He mentioned he was "tired" of keeping the order in place. Why does he care? Why did he stop caring?
The idea of a multiverse is interesting. It allows for Marvel to tell any type of story they want without regard to a character's history. Just like comic books. I worry that the whole thing get's so confusing we are going to start having to "just go with it" a lot more as the phases go on.
Patton Oswalt's speech in Parks & Rec will soon become a reality:
No offense to anyone here, but the confusion and discussion about alternative timelines and universes just wears me out and is the biggest reason I'm skeptical of where they're taking the next phase of marvel. I'm sure it'll all work out, but it's just tiresome to me.
This is starting to brush along some of the weirdness that starts happening with paradoxes when you think about time travel theory and parallel universes.
Like in theory, those guys were jumping to other universes to go back in time...but wouldn't potentially other versions of Cap and Iron Man not from our universe simultaneously jump to ours at that point as well.
Like in theory, those guys were jumping to other universes to go back in time...but wouldn't potentially other versions of Cap and Iron Man not from our universe simultaneously jump to ours at that point as well.
also, you now have a variant Gamora running around the "sacred timeline," yet she wasn't pruned the moment the battle against Thanos ended. so obviously some variants are allowed to exist as long as they don't mess things up.
I assume that Strange only saw 14 million possibilities, b/c Tony grabbed him and brought him out of the trance. Kinda sucks though to think about it, the TVA probably pruned 14,000,604 timelines where Thanos won. Kind of cheapens the victory knowing that it was "supposed" to happen.
I assume that Strange only saw 14 million possibilities, b/c Tony grabbed him and brought him out of the trance. Kinda sucks though to think about it, the TVA probably pruned 14,000,604 timelines where Thanos won. Kind of cheapens the victory knowing that it was "supposed" to happen.
I guess, but it's their fault he escaped. To me that also makes them part of that time branch.
Our Cap and Iron Man are now in that timeline, let's call it timeline B. Stark gets the tesseract knocked out of his hands, Loki picks it up and escapes, that's the nexus event as explained in the show. So from there we have timelines B1 (Loki escaped), and B2 (Loki doesn't escape.)
B1 is the one we see happen on screen, because Loki escaping is the reason they have to go further in the past to retrieve the Tesseract. So if timeline B1 is a branch timeline that has to be pruned (they put their little timeline pruner bomb on the ground), then everything that happens afterwards to Stark and Cap also happens in B1 and should have been pruned also.
The way you're explaining it, the TVA is basically saying Branch B1 can survive, but the thing that caused it and only that thing has to be erased from it?
Our Cap and Iron Man are now in that timeline, let's call it timeline B. Stark gets the tesseract knocked out of his hands, Loki picks it up and escapes, that's the nexus event as explained in the show. So from there we have timelines B1 (Loki escaped), and B2 (Loki doesn't escape.)
B1 is the one we see happen on screen, because Loki escaping is the reason they have to go further in the past to retrieve the Tesseract. So if timeline B1 is a branch timeline that has to be pruned (they put their little timeline pruner bomb on the ground), then everything that happens afterwards to Stark and Cap also happens in B1 and should have been pruned also.
The way you're explaining it, the TVA is basically saying Branch B1 can survive, but the thing that caused it and only that thing has to be erased from it?
Well this is what I mean by we're probably not supposed to think this much about it. This isn't trying to be like Dark or some kind of hard sci-fi show so it's probably best not to think about it.
But I like this kind of stuff so I can't help it.
But I like this kind of stuff so I can't help it.
I think enjoying these types of things depends on how cerebral you want to get with it. I can't imagine getting any enjoyment out of this if I try to dive into any logic/reasoning/science when it comes to multiverse and multiple timeline storylines. The more you try to dive into it the more of a mess it becomes. Think the story and character building on top of that theme is more important and fun to focus on.
This isn't going to be well explained or always make sense, but I'm sure marvel will make it fun as hell. Loki failed to really explain much but I'm ok with it and I'm looking forward to the craziness that is about to happen.
Shockingly the animated Spider-Man actually explained it decently and made it an amazing movie where I can't wait to watch part 2. I know marvel will be on a much grander scale though.
This isn't going to be well explained or always make sense, but I'm sure marvel will make it fun as hell. Loki failed to really explain much but I'm ok with it and I'm looking forward to the craziness that is about to happen.
Shockingly the animated Spider-Man actually explained it decently and made it an amazing movie where I can't wait to watch part 2. I know marvel will be on a much grander scale though.
Formerly tv1113
Disney and Marvel are trying to have billion dollar box offices. They can't get that with confusing stories. Time travel in the universe is confusing, but in the endgame, they purposefully laugh it off. The shows are for a slightly more nerdy crowd, but I don't think we need to look too much into it (except that it's fun).
When the movies come out, there's no way it'll be as complicated as we are making it.
When the movies come out, there's no way it'll be as complicated as we are making it.
I think that unfairness in the viewpoint of the TVA is supposed to come across in this series. Obviously it was Steve and Tony's fault, but the TVA did not give two ****'s about guilt, only about the effect on the timeline.Quote:
I guess, but it's their fault he escaped. To me that also makes them part of that time branch.
Loki did nothing but what anybody would do and was declared guilty. The TVA flat out told him, "no those guys are fine, they were supposed to do that."
Sylvie also was declared guilty simply for existing basically it seemed like. The TVA doesnt care if its your fault, they only care if you change the outcome.
We dont really know if B1 was pruned (except that obviously the TVA didnt show up while Tony and Steve were still around). Tony and Steve jumped back in time to B3 shortly thereafter.bobinator said:
I guess, but it's their fault he escaped. To me that also makes them part of that time branch.
Our Cap and Iron Man are now in that timeline, let's call it timeline B. Stark gets the tesseract knocked out of his hands, Loki picks it up and escapes, that's the nexus event as explained in the show. So from there we have timelines B1 (Loki escaped), and B2 (Loki doesn't escape.)
B1 is the one we see happen on screen, because Loki escaping is the reason they have to go further in the past to retrieve the Tesseract. So if timeline B1 is a branch timeline that has to be pruned (they put their little timeline pruner bomb on the ground), then everything that happens afterwards to Stark and Cap also happens in B1 and should have been pruned also.
The way you're explaining it, the TVA is basically saying Branch B1 can survive, but the thing that caused it and only that thing has to be erased from it?
I think we can assume that variations of B1 could still continue on the sacred timeline even without Loki, but Loki's absence could lead to nexuses where variations on B1 have to be pruned.
Actually B1 is definitely getting pruned. B1 has no space stone.
Alternate interpretation: Pruning Steve and Tony would ruin other universes so the TVA waited to show up until after they left.
Those that referred to it as the sacred timeline were from the TVA, right? They didn't know any different, so it makes sense for them to call it that.bobinator said:
I think at a minimum calling it the 'sacred timeline' when it's clearly more than one timeline was very confusing.
they set the charge and reset it when they arrested Loki in MongoliaJJxvi said:
Actually B1 is definitely getting pruned. B1 has no space stone.
Yeah, Its not confusing in terms of the show. It confusing for a portion of the audience of the show that is sci fi and comic book nerds that have a convention where a "timeline" is a specific sequence of events and they used timeline for a multiverse of infinite potentially different events that lead to the same outcome.
What if each unsuccessful timeline end with an interaction with the TVA? And that I what he is seeing each time?
Yeah, it also wasn't immediately clear from the Miss Minutes explainer 'welcome video' that there were multiple timelines within the "sacred timeline." The video also made it seem like the TVA was guarding a specific series of events and not just protecting a sacred outcome.
My plan is to just ignore any of the discussions, because I don't think the writing will stand up to it. And more likely, it wasn't written to be 'hard' sci-fi, and it's kind of ignoring all of the truly interesting things that happened in the episode/season.jeffk said:
No offense to anyone here, but the confusion and discussion about alternative timelines and universes just wears me out and is the biggest reason I'm skeptical of where they're taking the next phase of marvel. I'm sure it'll all work out, but it's just tiresome to me.
Thats also just how most of our brains work, its hard to ignore something that doesnt make sense when you see it.
My small counterpoint is that they made time travel a central plot vehicle of the main movie of the franchise, so it at least needs to hold up a little bit.
It's not like the only example of time travel was on one of the TV shows or even a lesser movie, it was the central plot of Endgame so you do have to deal with some of the repercussions of that.
It's not like the only example of time travel was on one of the TV shows or even a lesser movie, it was the central plot of Endgame so you do have to deal with some of the repercussions of that.
Yeah, as with most media dealing with time travel or alternate universes/timelines, they open that door just enough to be convenient to the story they want to tell and try to handwave away all the other implications that go along with it. The biggest problem is that it takes what was once linear (and easy to understand and digest) and changes it fundamentally. The viewer knows what they're watching doesn't matter as much as it would if there was just the one story happening.
I agree with that as well, and I dont think it holds up much at all so far.bobinator said:
My small counterpoint is that they made time travel a central plot vehicle of the main movie of the franchise, so it at least needs to hold up a little bit.
It's not like the only example of time travel was on one of the TV shows or even a lesser movie, it was the central plot of Endgame so you do have to deal with some of the repercussions of that.
So my plan is to attempt to just ignore thinking about it and enjoy the rest of it.
I actually think so far it's okay. They haven't given many answers yet to some of the questions, but they also haven't just blown past them.
I really think their only big misstep so far for the nerds like me is just the naming convention in this show and how they explained the "sacred timeline." if they'd have just called it the "sacred universe" and explained how only timelines that put that universe in danger are pruned then there would be no problem at all. (At least from how I currently understand it.)
You can have multiple timelines in the same universe, but if a timeline that puts the universe in danger goes too far, that universe irrevocably splits, and then you have a multiverse and then you have problems.
I really think their only big misstep so far for the nerds like me is just the naming convention in this show and how they explained the "sacred timeline." if they'd have just called it the "sacred universe" and explained how only timelines that put that universe in danger are pruned then there would be no problem at all. (At least from how I currently understand it.)
You can have multiple timelines in the same universe, but if a timeline that puts the universe in danger goes too far, that universe irrevocably splits, and then you have a multiverse and then you have problems.
I feel like I have thoughts to contribute but this concept is so confusing I feel like I would ramble forever and never make sense.
Gist of my ideas:
Time as a rope, strands are all the timelines, there is a sacred strand where specific events HAVE to occur. That's the only one HTR cares about. Free will exists to an extent in the strands.
Loki escaping and falling to Thanos is an issuethus he's pruned. Cap and Iron man can still get back on track with their major events so they're allowed to continue until otherwise.
I think HTR is just tired of protecting the events on the sacred strandthe strand that keeps his variants at bay. Let's see what happens now. I can't wait.
Gist of my ideas:
Time as a rope, strands are all the timelines, there is a sacred strand where specific events HAVE to occur. That's the only one HTR cares about. Free will exists to an extent in the strands.
Loki escaping and falling to Thanos is an issuethus he's pruned. Cap and Iron man can still get back on track with their major events so they're allowed to continue until otherwise.
I think HTR is just tired of protecting the events on the sacred strandthe strand that keeps his variants at bay. Let's see what happens now. I can't wait.
BingoQuote:
but it's just tiresome to me.
Sacred Timeline is a better name though, and lets them do the TVA as well, which leads to all of the set design for the show.
Sacred Timeline is a good name for a Goth metal band.
I mean they could still have all that? They're still guarding against threats across time so that wouldn't have to change.
Here's a multiverse with variant Loki and Mobius.
That would be the band Landry makes when he goes off to college and leaves Dillon.MooreTrucker said:
Sacred Timeline is a good name for a Goth metal band.
Also wanted to mention the choice to play the eerie Loki theme music during Kangs explanation was perfect.
PatAg said:That would be the band Landry makes when he goes off to college and leaves Dillon.MooreTrucker said:
Sacred Timeline is a good name for a Goth metal band.
Pruned Branches?
Just noticed something on my rewatch of the finale. Check out Mobius' tie when we first cut to him and Hunter watching all the timelines branch in the wake of the death of He Who Remains. His tie is loosened, and he has the tiniest bit of stubble (seen more clearly in his scene prior in Renslayers' office). This is *our* Mobius, unkempt after the events of the past couple episodes...
From there, we cut to Loki in the interrogation room, he runs to find Mobius, and when he does, less than a minute later, check out Mobius' tie now. It's cinched, with a crisp collar, and no stubble...
In other words, this is a completely different Mobius, in a completely different iteration of the TVA. NOT simply *our* Mobius who had his mind wiped of Loki's existence (as some here were speculating). Combined with the new statue (in place of the statues of the Time Keepers in *our* TVA), donning Kang the Conqueror garb...
... and not the the same garb of He Who Remains...
... I think it's safe to assume...
- Once the threshold is reached, past the point at which He Who Remains has seen, the timelines begin to branch (as Loki and Sylvie argue, He Who Remains: "Better hurry! Timelines are already branching!").
- Sylvie, using He Who Remains' wrist device, sends Loki back to the TVA. But because new timelines have already begun branching - each with a variant of He Who Remains - a new TVA is/was created by one of them... the Kang the Conqueror variant. But in this one, instead of the "benevolent" He Who Remains variant inventing the Time Keepers (and thus the Time Keeper statues), the Kang the Conquerer variant never establishes that particular ruse, and shows from the jump that he's in charge of the TVA (being a conqueror and all).
- However, because the Sacred Timeline is still intact (for now) and isn't erased, there are now two (or more) TVAs in existence simultaneously; *our* Mobius in the first/original one, and *our* Loki in the second/new one. With the second one just as convinced of its history and authenticity, watching the timelines branch like crazy just the same.
From there, we cut to Loki in the interrogation room, he runs to find Mobius, and when he does, less than a minute later, check out Mobius' tie now. It's cinched, with a crisp collar, and no stubble...
In other words, this is a completely different Mobius, in a completely different iteration of the TVA. NOT simply *our* Mobius who had his mind wiped of Loki's existence (as some here were speculating). Combined with the new statue (in place of the statues of the Time Keepers in *our* TVA), donning Kang the Conqueror garb...
... and not the the same garb of He Who Remains...
... I think it's safe to assume...
- Once the threshold is reached, past the point at which He Who Remains has seen, the timelines begin to branch (as Loki and Sylvie argue, He Who Remains: "Better hurry! Timelines are already branching!").
- Sylvie, using He Who Remains' wrist device, sends Loki back to the TVA. But because new timelines have already begun branching - each with a variant of He Who Remains - a new TVA is/was created by one of them... the Kang the Conqueror variant. But in this one, instead of the "benevolent" He Who Remains variant inventing the Time Keepers (and thus the Time Keeper statues), the Kang the Conquerer variant never establishes that particular ruse, and shows from the jump that he's in charge of the TVA (being a conqueror and all).
- However, because the Sacred Timeline is still intact (for now) and isn't erased, there are now two (or more) TVAs in existence simultaneously; *our* Mobius in the first/original one, and *our* Loki in the second/new one. With the second one just as convinced of its history and authenticity, watching the timelines branch like crazy just the same.
I love stuff like this, and I hate that I don't always catch it. Maybe I would have in a 2nd or 3rd watch.
Nice catch
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