Couple of clowns...
Would love to see a duel movie that is similar to Joker and batman begins, but from each POV with some interaction between the two.TCTTS said:
Exactly. I couldn't imagine the version we got going on to be the Joker that takes on Batman, etc, even 15 years from now or whatever.
I agree that the Joker we got by the end of the film couldn't stand up to Batman (not thoughtful enough, not confident enough), but given the arc and growth he went through in the film and extrapolating it out a few years? Yes, I could see him be at that level.TCTTS said:
Exactly. I couldn't imagine the version we got going on to be the Joker that takes on Batman, etc, even 15 years from now or whatever.
israeliag said:I agree that the Joker we got by the end of the film couldn't stand up to Batman (not thoughtful enough, not confident enough), but given the arc and growth he went through in the film and extrapolating it out a few years? Yes, I could see him be at that level.TCTTS said:
Exactly. I couldn't imagine the version we got going on to be the Joker that takes on Batman, etc, even 15 years from now or whatever.
Also, Batman is, what, eight in this film? Pretty sure Joker could stand up to an eight year old
But, Bruce with another 15 years vs. this Joker at that point? That sounds pretty interesting to me.
Bobcat06 said:
I enjoyed the film and would watch it again, but after thinking it over something doesn't sit well with me.
Joker's motivation is more vigilantism than madness. Traditionally, Joker kills people without reason. In this movie, Joker kills people because they had wronged him in some way. It's more about a twisted sense of revenge than actual madness.
THIS is the crux of the why I'm not all in on this movie. Felt very divisive. Posited the worldview that there are Haves, there are Have Nots, and nothing in between. And you know, maybe that IS becoming the case in huge blue state metropolises as the middle class votes w their feet and leaves. It really felt like the movie was justifying a Kill The Rich vibe and selling the Joker as the crazed folk hero messiah which lit the match to the powder keg. It pushed a worldview that there are Rich a-holes on one side and whole swath of suckers on the other side and you may as well riot because the entire edifice is rotten.veryfuller said:
Is Joker social commentary about elitism v populism or a portrait of a man unraveling or a study on mental illness or a comic book origin story? It is trying to be all of them, and I'm not sure it succeeds at being any of them. The troubling thing is that in tying them all together, the film makes a statement I'm not sure the filmmakers intended.
And also, depending on how you look at it, it either waters down one of the most interesting, captivating and terrifying comic book villains of all time, or it turns him into a folk hero. I'm not really a fan of either result.
Agreed. And dark AF.Quote:
BUT the cinematography is beautiful. And the score.
... and NOT off yourself before the movie is released? Apparently pretty hard.Quote:
Also Pheonix is good, I guess, but how hard is it to act like a crazy, mopey person? .
Plenty?_lefraud_ said:
There was plenty of comic relief...not sure what movie you saw.
This explains my take on this movie.dreyOO said:
That movie was a real turd. Didn't read reviews but heard Phoenix was great.
Thought his rendition was pretty great. But I didn't like the plotline at all. I won't spoil it, but just dumb.
And it was slow as hell. My wife fell asleep 3 times. The whole crowd was yawning throughout.
Could feel the relief when it was finally over.
veryfuller said:
Saw this last night. Don't have much to add to the conversation, but here is my quick review:
Is Joker social commentary about elitism v populism or a portrait of a man unraveling or a study on mental illness or a comic book origin story? It is trying to be all of them, and I'm not sure it succeeds at being any of them. The troubling thing is that in tying them all together, the film makes a statement I'm not sure the filmmakers intended.
And also, depending on how you look at it, it either waters down one of the most interesting, captivating and terrifying comic book villains of all time, or it turns him into a folk hero. I'm not really a fan of either result.
BUT the cinematography is beautiful. And the score.
Also Pheonix is good, I guess, but how hard is it to act like a crazy, mopey person? Sure he lost a lot of weight for the role, but I mean his acting isn't THAT impressive to me. I think what Brad Pitt does in Ad Astra is much more impressive than Pheonix in this, because Pitt accomplishes much more with so much less, if that makes sense. Not trying to troll on Pheonix's performance. I just think its overhyped.
veryfuller said:
Also Pheonix is good, I guess, but how hard is it to act like a crazy, mopey person? Sure he lost a lot of weight for the role, but I mean his acting isn't THAT impressive to me.
Max Power said:
Good, not great, my thought as well.
The Good:
Phoenix is really outstanding.
You feel the tension of this film, it's uncomfortable.
The violence is shocking at times.
Looks like 70s NYC, great set design.
The Not: I think the creation of The Joker being a combination of mental illness, amongst other factors, felt a little bit lazy in all honesty. Where Batman was a hero created by a man to save Gotham, I always thought Joker should be the complete antithesis, a villain created by Gotham that started as a regular guy systematically broken by the city and its people. He and his mother both being mentally ill just didn't fit for me. I didn't think the Wayne family was at all necessary to even be in the film, it may have been just to ground it in the Batman universe, but the film itself is the same without the Wayne family other than perhaps the them getting gunned down, that's the only scene that should have been there. I like the idea of him being abandoned/adopted, but not trying to have him believe Thomas Wayne was his father.
I had high hopes but the hype is off. Also, people need to calm the hell down that were referring to this film as dangerous. It's a movie, relax.
Bob_Ag said:Max Power said:
Good, not great, my thought as well.
The Good:
Phoenix is really outstanding.
You feel the tension of this film, it's uncomfortable.
The violence is shocking at times.
Looks like 70s NYC, great set design.
The Not: I think the creation of The Joker being a combination of mental illness, amongst other factors, felt a little bit lazy in all honesty. Where Batman was a hero created by a man to save Gotham, I always thought Joker should be the complete antithesis, a villain created by Gotham that started as a regular guy systematically broken by the city and its people. He and his mother both being mentally ill just didn't fit for me. I didn't think the Wayne family was at all necessary to even be in the film, it may have been just to ground it in the Batman universe, but the film itself is the same without the Wayne family other than perhaps the them getting gunned down, that's the only scene that should have been there. I like the idea of him being abandoned/adopted, but not trying to have him believe Thomas Wayne was his father.
I had high hopes but the hype is off. Also, people need to calm the hell down that were referring to this film as dangerous. It's a movie, relax.
I mean, isn't the Joker you just described the lazy approach? That's Joker everyone expects and has always been portrayed.
I agree the movie was a bit slow, but I loved the ending. I also appreciate the creativity and the way they made this their own. Also, I know it's natural to make comparisons to other portrayals of The Joker, but I think people should understand these are different portrayals of the same character. Technically The Joker doesn't even arrive in this movie until the very end. It's not an apples to apples comparison which to me speaks to the creativity of this screenplay.
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I don't know how anyone can say the approach that they took isn't lazy.