Jeremy made 2nd team all rookie.
*****2022-2023 San Antonio Spurs Thread*****
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Last: 1 yr ago by West Texan
Saw this on Reddit today, thought it would be fun to share.
Tim Duncan finished his career with a combined +/- of exactly 10,000.
Regular Season +8,910
Post Season +1,090
Think about that for a minute. Over his career, when Timmy was on the floor, his team outscored their opponents by TEN THOUSAND points.
The next closest is LeBron with a combined +8,556
Regular Season +7,223
Post Season +1,333
Tim Duncan finished his career with a combined +/- of exactly 10,000.
Regular Season +8,910
Post Season +1,090
Think about that for a minute. Over his career, when Timmy was on the floor, his team outscored their opponents by TEN THOUSAND points.
The next closest is LeBron with a combined +8,556
Regular Season +7,223
Post Season +1,333
It's amazing how his greatness is taken for granted because he wasn't flashy. That stat is crazy.
aggieactor01 said:
It's amazing how his greatness is taken for granted because he wasn't flashy. That stat is crazy.
He truly is punished for being boring. I'm sure he's fine with it, but I'm not.
If you had an all-time NBA franchise draft and could start a franchise with any player, how many guys would you pick over Duncan?
Take everything into account that you would in running a franchise: Character, ability, injury history, accomplishment, coachability, bringing the best out of teammates, off-court transgressions, etc.
How many all-time NBA greats do you take over Duncan?
Take everything into account that you would in running a franchise: Character, ability, injury history, accomplishment, coachability, bringing the best out of teammates, off-court transgressions, etc.
How many all-time NBA greats do you take over Duncan?
Guitarsoup said:
If you had an all-time NBA franchise draft and could start a franchise with any player, how many guys would you pick over Duncan?
Take everything into account that you would in running a franchise: Character, ability, injury history, accomplishment, coachability, bringing the best out of teammates, off-court transgressions, etc.
How many all-time NBA greats do you take over Duncan?
MJ, LeBron I think I would say without question.
Magic and Russell I wouldn't fight you too much.
After that, I think it's Duncan. And he might even be third on the list behind MJ and LBJ.
MJ would be my first, as well.Obi Wan Ginobili said:Guitarsoup said:
If you had an all-time NBA franchise draft and could start a franchise with any player, how many guys would you pick over Duncan?
Take everything into account that you would in running a franchise: Character, ability, injury history, accomplishment, coachability, bringing the best out of teammates, off-court transgressions, etc.
How many all-time NBA greats do you take over Duncan?
MJ, LeBron I think I would say without question.
Magic and Russell I wouldn't fight you too much.
After that, I think it's Duncan. And he might even be third on the list behind MJ and LBJ.
I would argue Duncan over LeBron. Multiple team switches and left his first team high and dry without winning to create a superteam. LeBron also seemed to push his way into the GM office to dictate dumb moves.
I wouldn't consider Russell. I know all the old heads love him, but it was an unrecognizable era of basketball by today's standards and he showed up to the NBA on a team with 4-5 HOFers already on it. Oh Russell was the GOAT defender... then why didn't Boston lead the league in defense until Russell's 6th season? Plus, lots of other well-rounded players to choose from.
I'd probably go Kareem over Magic. Maybe Bird, too, since Bird was the better defender compared to Magic. I think you could argue Duncan with any of them.
Duncan guarantees playoffs. He never missed in 19 seasons. Mj and LBJ can't say that. The only comps from a winning standpoint are Kareem, Russell,Magic and Bird.
Very intriguing question. Strictly basketball speaking, from an ideal championships-to-drama ratio, my heart wants TD so bad. Elite level with little to no fanfare/drama. Just winnin' sh*t. If I'm the owner, my wallet says MJ all day long.
MJ never missed with the Bulls. I DGAF what happened with the Wizards, we all knew those teams sucked. Chris Whitney and Popeye Jones were #2 and #4 in minutes played.Ag Natural said:
Duncan guarantees playoffs. He never missed in 19 seasons. Mj and LBJ can't say that. The only comps from a winning standpoint are Kareem, Russell,Magic and Bird.
LBJ and Kobe missed in their prime. LBJ missed his first two seasons, when he was 34, and last year.
Kareem famously won the MVP in a year he missed the playoffs. Only player to do that and he missed two years in a row.
If you're going to be a hater, at least be an accurate hater. Bill Russell's teams had the number one defensive rating in the league every year of his career except once, when they finished second. The Celtics just also played at the fastest pace in the league. The fact that there was a year where they finished with the fewest points against while also leading the league in pace is BONKERS. Also just for fun, the Celtics finished in the bottom half of the league in defense in the year before drafting Russell and the year after he retired.
Guitarsoup said:MJ never missed with the Bulls. I DGAF what happened with the Wizards, we all knew those teams sucked. Chris Whitney and Popeye Jones were #2 and #4 in minutes played.Ag Natural said:
Duncan guarantees playoffs. He never missed in 19 seasons. Mj and LBJ can't say that. The only comps from a winning standpoint are Kareem, Russell,Magic and Bird.
LBJ and Kobe missed in their prime. LBJ missed his first two seasons, when he was 34, and last year.
Kareem famously won the MVP in a year he missed the playoffs. Only player to do that and he missed two years in a row.
Well the facts are still the facts. Duncan made the playoffs even as an old man. He's a leader. MJ famously ruined Kwame Brown by being a complete ass to him. When your talking total package, Duncan is waaay up there. We all lived it. Having TD as your star is the most enjoyable experience in NBA history.
1957: 5th of 8TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:
If you're going to be a hater, at least be an accurate hater. Bill Russell's teams had the number one defensive rating in the league every year of his career except once, when they finished second. The Celtics just also played at the fastest pace in the league. The fact that there was a year where they finished with the fewest points against while also leading the league in pace is BONKERS. Also just for fun, the Celtics finished in the bottom half of the league in defense in the year before drafting Russell and the year after he retired.
1958: 3rd of 8
1959: 6th of 8
1960: 5th of 8
1961: 2nd of 8
1962: 1st of 8
So like I said, it was his 6th season before Boston led the league in defense.
But yeah, I'll be a hater on this 8-team league with teams from Syracuse, Fort Wayne, and Rochester where you could trade the Ice Capades for the top prospect.
Watch this and really DGAF about any accomplishments in that time period. It's like comparing Cy Young's stats to Justin Verlander's.
If you put JaVale McGee in Doc Brown's Delorean and sent him to 1955, we would all be arguing if JaVale was the greatest basketball player that ever lived.
Lonnie having a huge game for the Lakers tonight. I'll always root foe that kid.
Points per game is not indicative of who is the best defense because it's not adjusted for how fast the team plays. For example the Warriors have never been a top 10 defense in points allowed during Kerr's whole run even though they've obviously been an outstanding defense for most of that time. All you are doing by ignoring pace is punishing teams that play fast. But if you want to pretend the Celtics weren't far and away the best defense of the 1960s then I'm not gonna stop you from living in your own alternate reality.
TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:
Points per game is not indicative of who is the best defense because it's not adjusted for how fast the team plays. For example the Warriors have never been a top 10 defense in points allowed during Kerr's whole run even though they've obviously been an outstanding defense for most of that time. All you are doing by ignoring pace is punishing teams that play fast. But if you want to pretend the Celtics weren't far and away the best defense of the 1960s then I'm not gonna stop you from living in your own alternate reality.
Cool, I'm going by the ranking method that was used then and is still used. I've never said they weren't good at defense.
You keep making up whatever bull**** you want if it makes you feel better.
https://theathletic.com/4355853/2023/05/09/nba-draft-paolo-banchero-chet-holmgren?source=user-shared-article
The Athletic's redraft of 22.
Sochan goes 6th
Only player after him that moved up was OKC's Jalen Williams.
I was higher on Sochan than most entering the draft, having him No. 6 on my board. I've seen no reason to move off that rating. Outside of his shooting, Sochan remains everything teams look for in a high-level developmental prospect. He has genuine size at 6-foot-9 with a massive wingspan, and he's willing and able to take on tough on-ball defensive assignments in addition to playing strong help defense. Offensively, Sochan took the on-ball reps he was given this year and really blossomed. Over his last 17 games, he averaged almost 16 points, six rebounds and three assists while making good decisions and expanding his game. On top of that, he played this entire season as a teenager at 19 years old. He and Zion Williamson are the only players to play a majority of their rookie seasons as teenagers and average 11 points, five rebounds and two assists while shooting 45 percent from the field. If you expand it to include 20-year-olds, you still only get 21 names. Outside of the players to do this in the last two years (Evan Mobley, Josh Giddey, Alperen engn and Scottie Barnes), the other 16 players all went on to make an All-Star team in the future. Sochan feels like a reasonable bet to do the same, given how advanced he is defensively and how well his skill set game profiles into where the game is going long term. He is a cleaned-up shot away from stardom.
The Athletic's redraft of 22.
Sochan goes 6th
Only player after him that moved up was OKC's Jalen Williams.
I was higher on Sochan than most entering the draft, having him No. 6 on my board. I've seen no reason to move off that rating. Outside of his shooting, Sochan remains everything teams look for in a high-level developmental prospect. He has genuine size at 6-foot-9 with a massive wingspan, and he's willing and able to take on tough on-ball defensive assignments in addition to playing strong help defense. Offensively, Sochan took the on-ball reps he was given this year and really blossomed. Over his last 17 games, he averaged almost 16 points, six rebounds and three assists while making good decisions and expanding his game. On top of that, he played this entire season as a teenager at 19 years old. He and Zion Williamson are the only players to play a majority of their rookie seasons as teenagers and average 11 points, five rebounds and two assists while shooting 45 percent from the field. If you expand it to include 20-year-olds, you still only get 21 names. Outside of the players to do this in the last two years (Evan Mobley, Josh Giddey, Alperen engn and Scottie Barnes), the other 16 players all went on to make an All-Star team in the future. Sochan feels like a reasonable bet to do the same, given how advanced he is defensively and how well his skill set game profiles into where the game is going long term. He is a cleaned-up shot away from stardom.
Nice scouting report of Anthony Black, who I like as our consolation prize if we don't get a top pick.
https://theboxandone.substack.com/p/anthony-black-2023-nba-draft-scouting
Bottom line:
Great decision making with ball when coming off screen or driving
Awful shot that needs a lot of work
Best perimeter defender in the class
6'7 with huge wingspan gives you the type of body you want lining up at PG in the positionless NBA
Great character and elite work ethic
https://theboxandone.substack.com/p/anthony-black-2023-nba-draft-scouting
Bottom line:
Great decision making with ball when coming off screen or driving
Awful shot that needs a lot of work
Best perimeter defender in the class
6'7 with huge wingspan gives you the type of body you want lining up at PG in the positionless NBA
Great character and elite work ethic
Six years ago. Never forget
6 days from draft lottery
From Bud to Scott Brooks seems like a downgrade.
ESPN Sources: The Milwaukee Bucks have secured permission to interview to Portland Trail Blazers assistant Scott Brooks for franchise’s head coaching job. Brooks has a 521-414 (.557) regular season and 49-48 (.505) playoff record in 12 seasons with Oklahoma City and Washington.
— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) May 11, 2023
superunknown said:
From Bud to Scott Brooks seems like a downgrade.ESPN Sources: The Milwaukee Bucks have secured permission to interview to Portland Trail Blazers assistant Scott Brooks for franchise’s head coaching job. Brooks has a 521-414 (.557) regular season and 49-48 (.505) playoff record in 12 seasons with Oklahoma City and Washington.
— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) May 11, 2023
That's because it is a downgrade. Dude couldn't win with KD, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka.
Kendrick Perkins held them back
Marc Stein saying that Deandre Ayton is done with the Suns. He has 3y and just over 100mm left on his contract.
https://marcstein.substack.com/p/an-ode-to-the-organist-all-the-nba?sd=pf
The Suns have 156mm tied up in Durant, Booker, Paul, Landry Shamet, and Ayton. The salary cap is 134 and the luxury tax is 162. The Suns paid 52mm in luxury tax this year.
Would you trade something like two firsts for Ayton and just absorb him into our cap room? Charlotte first and Chicago first or something?
Ayton is just 24yo and averaged 18/10 on 62% TS%. But his defense is average and his effort probably needs improvement. He actually shoots from the midrange pretty well, with about 46% FG from 10-23' on 30% of his shot attempts. He's not a good passer, certainly not what we are used to out of Spurs bigs like Robinson, Duncan, TheMarcus and Collins.
Suns just may give him up cheap to save the money. He is probably a bit overpaid. However, the only centers that scored more than him were Embiid, Jokic, and BAM. He's 8th in rebounding among centers at just 30mpg.
Could Timmy teach him to become great?
https://marcstein.substack.com/p/an-ode-to-the-organist-all-the-nba?sd=pf
The Suns have 156mm tied up in Durant, Booker, Paul, Landry Shamet, and Ayton. The salary cap is 134 and the luxury tax is 162. The Suns paid 52mm in luxury tax this year.
Would you trade something like two firsts for Ayton and just absorb him into our cap room? Charlotte first and Chicago first or something?
Ayton is just 24yo and averaged 18/10 on 62% TS%. But his defense is average and his effort probably needs improvement. He actually shoots from the midrange pretty well, with about 46% FG from 10-23' on 30% of his shot attempts. He's not a good passer, certainly not what we are used to out of Spurs bigs like Robinson, Duncan, TheMarcus and Collins.
Suns just may give him up cheap to save the money. He is probably a bit overpaid. However, the only centers that scored more than him were Embiid, Jokic, and BAM. He's 8th in rebounding among centers at just 30mpg.
Could Timmy teach him to become great?
Win the lotto for Wemby I'd take that deal for Ayton and trot out a new age twin towers.
Draft Scoot and put Ayton at center. The Pick and Roll could be elite. Ayton learned from Chris Paul. 44" vertical and great midrange game.FTAG 2000 said:
Win the lotto for Wemby I'd take that deal for Ayton and trot out a new age twin towers.
you mad man, I've been thinking about this all day since I saw that Marc stein tweet. Is Ayton salvageable (if anyone can do it, PATFO can, plus I don't think he's that bad) and if so...call me crazy but I think you can slot him in the lineup next to Wemby. Wtf not? If you don't get the 1st pick, Ayton works well with any of the other top picks.
I can't stop asking myself why not?
I can't stop asking myself why not?
superunknown said:
you mad man, I've been thinking about this all day since I saw that Marc stein tweet. Is Ayton salvageable (if anyone can do it, PATFO can, plus I don't think he's that bad) and if so...call me crazy but I think you can slot him in the lineup next to Wemby. Wtf not? If you don't get the 1st pick, Ayton works well with any of the other top picks.
I can't stop asking myself why not?
Because you're entire dream scenario requires Ayton to be salvaged. That's literally the opposite of what is happening right now. You're taking a HUGE risk on a player that A) got paid and regressed in front of our eyes, and B) NOTORIOUSLY is believed to not give a **** and does the absolute minimum.
I get the idea of a "bigger name" player sounds so good right now, but Ayton looks closer to not being in the league after this contract than he does to being a supporting player on a strong playoff team.
Yeah, Ayton seems to not have the dog in him. Maybe if he was more of a centerpiece of the team, he would be more excited?Obi Wan Ginobili said:superunknown said:
you mad man, I've been thinking about this all day since I saw that Marc stein tweet. Is Ayton salvageable (if anyone can do it, PATFO can, plus I don't think he's that bad) and if so...call me crazy but I think you can slot him in the lineup next to Wemby. Wtf not? If you don't get the 1st pick, Ayton works well with any of the other top picks.
I can't stop asking myself why not?
Because you're entire dream scenario requires Ayton to be salvaged. That's literally the opposite of what is happening right now. You're taking a HUGE risk on a player that A) got paid and regressed in front of our eyes, and B) NOTORIOUSLY is believed to not give a **** and does the absolute minimum.
I get the idea of a "bigger name" player sounds so good right now, but Ayton looks closer to not being in the league after this contract than he does to being a supporting player on a strong playoff team.
In any event, it is a risk. You can't teach a guy to want to work hard.
Post on how the Warriors are screwed right now:
https://theathletic.com/4516403/2023/05/13/warriors-free-agency-offseason-salary-cap-contracts/
Hollinger on what the Warriors can do. $71mm next year to Poole and Klay. Oof.
Curry is 35, Klay and Dray are 33.
They talk about how the Warriors screwed the pooch in the draft. #2 turned into Wiseman and #7 turned into Kuminga. Pretty sure there was a LMA & #11 for #2 trade on the board that GSW turned down.
Kuminga could have been Franz Wagner (19/4/4 this year), Sengun, or Trey Murphy, Wiseman could have been LaMelo, Halliburton, Vassell, Maxey, Desmond Bane, etc.
DiVingonzo will opt out and GSW can't pay him to stay.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPURS PERSPECTIVE
So we get one of Wemby or Scoot.
Warriors are at ~205mm in salaries after DonteDiV walks, which gives them another 250MM in luxury tax, costing them almost half a billion dollars for 2023-24. Luxury tax line is $164mm.
Spurs offer:
Blake Wesley
Warriors offer:
Klay Thompson
2023 19th pick (can only be completed after draft day)
2026 1st rounder
2028 1st rounder
That cuts the Warriors salary to 164.5mm. Get Draymond to opt out and take a lower salary but for more years and they are out of luxury tax hell for the year.
This one move saves the Warriors approximately $300mm. Three firsts to save $300mm on a team that wasn't going to compete? Sounds fair. This is a really deep draft and a guy like GG Jackson or Jett Howard could drop to 19 easily. Maybe a D&3 guy like Julian Strasther.
Wemby team:
Collins/Bassey
Wemby/Sochan/Dougie
Klay/Keldon
Vassell/Branham
Tre/Graham
Plus the 19th pick, the 32nd pick, and 44th pick.
GG Jackson, Marcus Sasser, and Jordan Walsh?
Scoot team:
Collins/Bassey
Sochan/Dougie
Klay/Keldon
Vassell/Branham
Scoot/Graham
Plus 19th, 32nd, 44th picks:
Dereck Lively, James Nanji, Andre Jackson Jr
https://theathletic.com/4516403/2023/05/13/warriors-free-agency-offseason-salary-cap-contracts/
Hollinger on what the Warriors can do. $71mm next year to Poole and Klay. Oof.
Curry is 35, Klay and Dray are 33.
Quote:
Golden State will have only minimum contracts available to augment the roster unless it slashes and burns what is currently there.
Quote:
Green has a player option and could become a free agent, although our Shams Charania and Anthony Slater report that an extension seems more likely. Jordan Poole, coming off a series where he was nigh unplayable, is about to see his salary bump from a great value ($3.9 million) to a potential liability ($28.2 million, presuming his $500,000 incentive for winning Defensive Player of the Year doesn't kick in). Thompson is set to make $43 million next year despite being, at this point, a pretty average player who was low-key brutal for much of the playoffs.
They talk about how the Warriors screwed the pooch in the draft. #2 turned into Wiseman and #7 turned into Kuminga. Pretty sure there was a LMA & #11 for #2 trade on the board that GSW turned down.
Kuminga could have been Franz Wagner (19/4/4 this year), Sengun, or Trey Murphy, Wiseman could have been LaMelo, Halliburton, Vassell, Maxey, Desmond Bane, etc.
DiVingonzo will opt out and GSW can't pay him to stay.
That seems bad.Quote:
In spite of that, one wonders if the Warriors will need to cut further. They have over $205 million in projected salary for next season if Green either opts in or re-signs for a roughly similar amount, which would put them $55 million over the tax line. Combined with the repeater penalty, that would mean a roughly $250 million luxury tax check to the league, which is more than every other team's payroll, to keep together a 44-win team that is only getting older and can't make any additions.
Klay has one more year at 43mm on his contract. 44/41/89 for 21/4/2 this year but worthless in the playoffs.Quote:
There's a really obvious place to start, at the shooting guard position, where Thompson and Poole will combine to make $71 million next season. Even by the money-out-the-firehose standards of the Warriors, that's way too much for one position, and they aren't even getting surplus production from it. Thompson finished the playoffs with a PER of 9.4; it was 9.7 for Poole.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPURS PERSPECTIVE
So we get one of Wemby or Scoot.
Warriors are at ~205mm in salaries after DonteDiV walks, which gives them another 250MM in luxury tax, costing them almost half a billion dollars for 2023-24. Luxury tax line is $164mm.
Spurs offer:
Blake Wesley
Warriors offer:
Klay Thompson
2023 19th pick (can only be completed after draft day)
2026 1st rounder
2028 1st rounder
That cuts the Warriors salary to 164.5mm. Get Draymond to opt out and take a lower salary but for more years and they are out of luxury tax hell for the year.
This one move saves the Warriors approximately $300mm. Three firsts to save $300mm on a team that wasn't going to compete? Sounds fair. This is a really deep draft and a guy like GG Jackson or Jett Howard could drop to 19 easily. Maybe a D&3 guy like Julian Strasther.
Wemby team:
Collins/Bassey
Wemby/Sochan/Dougie
Klay/Keldon
Vassell/Branham
Tre/Graham
Plus the 19th pick, the 32nd pick, and 44th pick.
GG Jackson, Marcus Sasser, and Jordan Walsh?
Scoot team:
Collins/Bassey
Sochan/Dougie
Klay/Keldon
Vassell/Branham
Scoot/Graham
Plus 19th, 32nd, 44th picks:
Dereck Lively, James Nanji, Andre Jackson Jr
Spurs could finally have Klay, after wanting to draft him in 2011.
I wouldn't bail the Suns out and trade for Aiton. He literally said his career goal was to get his second contract. That's done so he's checked out. He's basically the next Andrew Bynum.
Haha, I didn't know that.Ag Natural said:
I wouldn't bail the Suns out and trade for Aiton. He literally said his career goal was to get his second contract. That's done so he's checked out. He's basically the next Andrew Bynum.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23854252/deandre-ayton-nba-success-getting-second-deal
Yeah...to both responses (you & Obi Wan) I don't disagree, and it's a huge risk. Ayton definitely doesn't have that dawg in him. I'd honestly forgotten about his "make it to my 2nd contract" nonsense. I definitely don't think Ayton is your #1 guy on any team. Thinking he could potentially grow into a solid #2 behind rapid development from our #1 pick, though. Admittedly its a rosiest scenario.
Maybe a moot one considering this....perhaps a new Suns coach can fix him.
Maybe a moot one considering this....perhaps a new Suns coach can fix him.
BREAKING: The Phoenix Suns dismissed coach Monty Williams, sources tell ESPN. Williams was a two-time NBA Coach of the Year in four seasons with Suns — including a trip to 2021 NBA Finals. Suns lost 6-game series to Nuggets in Western Semifinals. pic.twitter.com/bfMd6F1RJc
— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) May 14, 2023
I think that new Suns coach (the one that pulled the trigger on the Durant trade) is going to do a lot of retooling this summer.
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