Hadn't heard that story about Ayton on the second deal. Pass.

Guitarsoup said:

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Obi Wan Ginobili said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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If you had an all-time NBA franchise draft and could start a franchise with any player, how many guys would you pick over Duncan?

Take everything into account that you would in running a franchise: Character, ability, injury history, accomplishment, coachability, bringing the best out of teammates, off-court transgressions, etc.

How many all-time NBA greats do you take over Duncan?

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MJ, LeBron I think I would say without question.

Magic and Russell I wouldn't fight you too much.

After that, I think it's Duncan. And he might even be third on the list behind MJ and LBJ.

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MJ would be my first, as well.

I would argue Duncan over LeBron. Multiple team switches and left his first team high and dry without winning to create a superteam. LeBron also seemed to push his way into the GM office to dictate dumb moves.

I wouldn't consider Russell. I know all the old heads love him, but it was an unrecognizable era of basketball by today's standards and he showed up to the NBA on a team with 4-5 HOFers already on it. Oh Russell was the GOAT defender... then why didn't Boston lead the league in defense until Russell's 6th season? Plus, lots of other well-rounded players to choose from.

I'd probably go Kareem over Magic. Maybe Bird, too, since Bird was the better defender compared to Magic. I think you could argue Duncan with any of them.

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Buddy, your insight and takes on this forum are high quality, but you're on crack if you pick Duncan over LeBron. All time leading scorer, 4 rings, 20 regular season, nearly 3.5 extra seasons of playoff basketball, INARGUABLY the greatest basketball career (MJ is the best player ever, LeBron has had the best career). All of this was done while staying with the same spouse, raising kids, and never getting into legal trouble or even a hint of being involved. His worst crime off the court was "le Decision" which was goofy but it was to raise money for children, and the China thing. I don't agree with him taking money from China but that's an opinion, not a fact. My "opinion" on HIS opinion on ethics means Jack squat.

As for Russell, my picking him might be sentimental. He just died, 11 rings, great human. He's an older version of Duncan or Robinson. It's unfair you said to pick ANYONE from any era and then started applying criteria like how many teams there were, etc. of course Russell wouldn't be as good now, but that's not how history works. The US Army would wipe out every other army in history, that doesn't invalidate their place in history. Russell in the early days of basketball was the MJ/LeBron/Duncan of his time. That's why I picked him.

Kareem is knob. Great scorer, but he can eat a lemon.

Guitarsoup said:

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Post on how the Warriors are screwed right now:

https://theathletic.com/4516403/2023/05/13/warriors-free-agency-offseason-salary-cap-contracts/


Hollinger on what the Warriors can do. $71mm next year to Poole and Klay. Oof.

Curry is 35, Klay and Dray are 33.

Quote:

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Golden State will have only minimum contracts available to augment the roster unless it slashes and burns what is currently there.

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Quote:

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Green has a player option and could become a free agent, although our Shams Charania and Anthony Slater report that an extension seems more likely. Jordan Poole, coming off a series where he was nigh unplayable, is about to see his salary bump from a great value ($3.9 million) to a potential liability ($28.2 million, presuming his $500,000 incentive for winning Defensive Player of the Year doesn't kick in). Thompson is set to make $43 million next year despite being, at this point, a pretty average player who was low-key brutal for much of the playoffs.

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They talk about how the Warriors screwed the pooch in the draft. #2 turned into Wiseman and #7 turned into Kuminga. Pretty sure there was a LMA & #11 for #2 trade on the board that GSW turned down.

Kuminga could have been Franz Wagner (19/4/4 this year), Sengun, or Trey Murphy, Wiseman could have been LaMelo, Halliburton, Vassell, Maxey, Desmond Bane, etc.


DiVingonzo will opt out and GSW can't pay him to stay.

Quote:

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In spite of that, one wonders if the Warriors will need to cut further. They have over $205 million in projected salary for next season if Green either opts in or re-signs for a roughly similar amount, which would put them $55 million over the tax line. Combined with the repeater penalty, that would mean a roughly $250 million luxury tax check to the league, which is more than every other team's payroll, to keep together a 44-win team that is only getting older and can't make any additions.

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That seems bad.

Quote:

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There's a really obvious place to start, at the shooting guard position, where Thompson and Poole will combine to make $71 million next season. Even by the money-out-the-firehose standards of the Warriors, that's way too much for one position, and they aren't even getting surplus production from it. Thompson finished the playoffs with a PER of 9.4; it was 9.7 for Poole.

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Klay has one more year at 43mm on his contract. 44/41/89 for 21/4/2 this year but worthless in the playoffs.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPURS PERSPECTIVE


So we get one of Wemby or Scoot.


Warriors are at ~205mm in salaries after DonteDiV walks, which gives them another 250MM in luxury tax, costing them almost half a billion dollars for 2023-24. Luxury tax line is $164mm.

Spurs offer:
Blake Wesley
Warriors offer:
Klay Thompson
2023 19th pick (can only be completed after draft day)
2026 1st rounder
2028 1st rounder

That cuts the Warriors salary to 164.5mm. Get Draymond to opt out and take a lower salary but for more years and they are out of luxury tax hell for the year.

This one move saves the Warriors approximately $300mm. Three firsts to save $300mm on a team that wasn't going to compete? Sounds fair. This is a really deep draft and a guy like GG Jackson or Jett Howard could drop to 19 easily. Maybe a D&3 guy like Julian Strasther.

Wemby team:

Collins/Bassey
Wemby/Sochan/Dougie
Klay/Keldon
Vassell/Branham
Tre/Graham

Plus the 19th pick, the 32nd pick, and 44th pick.
GG Jackson, Marcus Sasser, and Jordan Walsh?


Scoot team:

Collins/Bassey
Sochan/Dougie
Klay/Keldon
Vassell/Branham
Scoot/Graham

Plus 19th, 32nd, 44th picks:
Dereck Lively, James Nanji, Andre Jackson Jr

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The Warriors won't trade Klay, and they sure as **** won't send us picks to take him. He's washed up, his trade value is trash, and the Warriors fans would never forgive the team for it.

It would essentially be a 1 year rental to save THREE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS. That's a lot of ****ing money. If your team is maxing out at 45 wins and a 2nd round exit, you'd be insane to not try to cut from 450mm to 150mm with one trade. Pissing away 300mm is crazy just because a washed player is the second best player you've had in the best run the team has ever had.

Obi Wan Ginobili said:

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Guitarsoup said:

---

Obi Wan Ginobili said:

---

Guitarsoup said:

---

If you had an all-time NBA franchise draft and could start a franchise with any player, how many guys would you pick over Duncan?

Take everything into account that you would in running a franchise: Character, ability, injury history, accomplishment, coachability, bringing the best out of teammates, off-court transgressions, etc.

How many all-time NBA greats do you take over Duncan?

---

MJ, LeBron I think I would say without question.

Magic and Russell I wouldn't fight you too much.

After that, I think it's Duncan. And he might even be third on the list behind MJ and LBJ.

---

MJ would be my first, as well.

I would argue Duncan over LeBron. Multiple team switches and left his first team high and dry without winning to create a superteam. LeBron also seemed to push his way into the GM office to dictate dumb moves.

I wouldn't consider Russell. I know all the old heads love him, but it was an unrecognizable era of basketball by today's standards and he showed up to the NBA on a team with 4-5 HOFers already on it. Oh Russell was the GOAT defender... then why didn't Boston lead the league in defense until Russell's 6th season? Plus, lots of other well-rounded players to choose from.

I'd probably go Kareem over Magic. Maybe Bird, too, since Bird was the better defender compared to Magic. I think you could argue Duncan with any of them.

---

Buddy, your insight and takes on this forum are high quality, but you're on crack if you pick Duncan over LeBron. All time leading scorer, 4 rings, 20 regular season, nearly 3.5 extra seasons of playoff basketball, INARGUABLY the greatest basketball career (MJ is the best player ever, LeBron has had the best career). All of this was done while staying with the same spouse, raising kids, and never getting into legal trouble or even a hint of being involved. His worst crime off the court was "le Decision" which was goofy but it was to raise money for children, and the China thing. I don't agree with him taking money from China but that's an opinion, not a fact. My "opinion" on HIS opinion on ethics means Jack squat.

As for Russell, my picking him might be sentimental. He just died, 11 rings, great human. He's an older version of Duncan or Robinson. It's unfair you said to pick ANYONE from any era and then started applying criteria like how many teams there were, etc. of course Russell wouldn't be as good now, but that's not how history works. The US Army would wipe out every other army in history, that doesn't invalidate their place in history. Russell in the early days of basketball was the MJ/LeBron/Duncan of his time. That's why I picked him.

Kareem is knob. Great scorer, but he can eat a lemon.

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I DGAF about LeBron's opinions, just like I DGAF about Pop's opinions. My reasons for Duncan over LeBron is pretty simple:

1. I value interior defense (especially with a guy like pre-plantar fasciitis Duncan that could switch well) over perimeter defense.
2. I think LeBron meddled with the GM duties too much and that really screwed up some of his teams, especially the first iteration of Cleveland.
3. LeBron team hopped to get himself the best place he could win (especially after moves he pushed on the GM didn't work out,) and if I am trying to build a team around a player long-term, that is a huge negative. Like Cleveland did everything LeBron asked, then he still ****ed them over to go to Miami.
4. I think Duncan is the most selfless superstar, while at the same time, being absolutely relentless in working hard and pushing his teammates to be better. I think we see a ton of role players that reached their peak with the Spurs, then went elsewhere to obscurity. And lots of guys that went from obscurity to being contributing role players with the Spurs. Maybe that is all Pop, but I assume it had a lot to do with Duncan, too. I don't see that same phenomena with LeBron.

Most of LeBron's "controversies" are things completely irrelevant to team building/winning. But Duncan just had absolutely nothing that distracted at all. No tweets, China stuff, etc. LeBron is probably a better guy off the court than MJ ever was.

Just things that I value. You can obviously build a great team and win with either. But you look at LeBron's championships, he had prime Kyrie scoring 27ppg on 47/41 shooting against GSW, He had prime Wade and Bosh on the same team. He had/has prime Anthony Davis. Sure, Manu and Tony are in the HOF, but neither was as good as Kyrie, Wade, or Davis. Really not even close. And LeBron had plenty of opportunities, but he never dragged a team to a title like Duncan did in 03.

So yeah, for career, LeBron has the individual accolades, but as a franchise centerpiece, I would take Duncan.


--------------

I totally understand why you would pick Russell. I just gave reasons why he wouldn't be my pick. You could pick Mikan for all I care, he wouldn't be my choice. I think the 50s/60s NBA barely resembles basketball and that Celtics team had tons of HOFers on it. I totally get Russell's place in history, but he wouldn't be a top 5 player for me to pick to start a franchise. Wilt averaged 50/25 for a season and I don't know if he would be top ten for me and his game probably translates better to today's game with his ridiculous size and athleticism, if he could be coached.

An emotional Devin Brown enters the San Antonio HOF on Saturday after an improbable journey from West Campus to UTSA to helping the Spurs win one of their five titles. pic.twitter.com/D1etgQJd92

— Tom Orsborn (@tom_orsborn) May 14, 2023

Appreciate the compliments. I find it hard to judge Lebron at all or slot him in anywhere.

My hottest of hot takes is that MJ is of course the GOAT, but if you took him in his prime vs Lebron in his prime, I'm not sure MJ wins. There's a big part of me that feels like Lebron would eat him up, mainly because he's so much bigger and stronger. No way to quantify that, I know. And whether we realize it or not Lebrons NBA is vastly different than MJs NBA even though they look pretty similar. Some of that's probably because of rule changes have changed the game (and acknowledging that MJ and Shaq to an extent were causes of rule changes) and i don't think a confluence on the level of Phil+Pippen+Triangle around MJ will ever happen again. Surely MJ is the toughest most competitive etc to ever play in the NBA. It's just a different league now. Not as apparent to the naked eye as watching say, Jokic or Giannis today and wondering how they'd fare against the offseason dock loaders and warehouse dudes in the 8 team 60s NBA, but the difference is still vast.

Having said that I didn't even think about him in that scenario because he's not retired. I think he's got another ring or two in him sometime.

And the whole reason my heart wanted Tim is because of the no thrills no drama aspect. I think incredibly highly of Lebron on the court and I think he gets a lot of unwarranted hate, it's to the point for some people online in certain forums hate-dik ride him (or is it dik hate-ride? Idk) for...reasons and I will never understand why. If there's any reason to crack on Lebron it's because of the LeGM thing and I wonder if the Cavs had ever managed to build a decent group around him, maybe The Decision never happens. I'm guessing he'd still get involved in personnel discussions (like any megastar should) but with Lebrob comes Klutch Sports and probably a bit of Worldwide Wes in the early days too.

Lebron deserves ever bit of the accolades he'll ever get and probably more. Maybe he only deserves half the hate though, I don't know.

Less than 48 hours to the Draft Lottery

Anyone else worried about Wemby's durability? I just dont see him staying healthy for a full season. Hasnt he already had foot and back issues?

jsc8116 said:

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Anyone else worried about Wemby's durability? I just dont see him staying healthy for a full season. Hasnt he already had foot and back issues?

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There's definitely concerns with someone that large. Honestly, he had one lower leg injury a couple years ago (stress fracture in fibula); however, other than that its been minor stuff like muscle pulls, broken finger, etc. I don't think he has had any major foot or back issues up to this point.

Even with the concerns, every NBA team will roll the dice with him at #1. He's a generational talent that you can't pass up.

jsc8116 said:

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Anyone else worried about Wemby's durability? I just dont see him staying healthy for a full season. Hasnt he already had foot and back issues?

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I brought that up earlier. No one 7'3 or taller has had an elite, injury-free career. Pretty much all those guys have been very limited, except maybe the Great White Ape, Mark Eaton.

He has dealt with muscle issues in his back and stress fractures in his lower leg. Both bad signs. But the word with NBA scouts is that he is so talented, you take him #1 anyway. Just like Zion got that max deal despite playing like 25% of his games.

The only limit on Mark Eaton was his talent

Hoping for the first pick and then reaming whoever gets the 2nd in a trade to swap picks.

But the odds of the Spurs passing on a foreigner are traditionally very low, so not holding my breath.

If we get #3 do we expect to sit on that and hope that someone absolutely wants Brandon Miller so bad they'll trade up for it? Or do they take a twin and move on? Man I'd love to sit on #3 and see if someone in that 4-10 range wants to throw in their pick +assets to move up a couple notches.

Today is the day, a new Spurs dynasty begins

I would hope we are savvy enough to turn that 3 into additional assets if we are that against taking Miller.

Really hope we walk away with a top 3 pick tonight.

I understand the injury concerns but there's no way in hell you pass on Wembanyama if you get the 1.

superunknown said:

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If we get #3 do we expect to sit on that and hope that someone absolutely wants Brandon Miller so bad they'll trade up for it? Or do they take a twin and move on? Man I'd love to sit on #3 and see if someone in that 4-10 range wants to throw in their pick +assets to move up a couple notches.

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There are a lot of teams in the Lottery that need a Brandon Miller more than a Scoot.

Detroit: CadeC/Jaden Ivey/Killian Hayes|
Charlotte: LAMelo
Portland: Dame/Simons/Sharpe
Indiana: Halliburton
Dallas; Kyrie/Luka
OKC: SGA/Giddy
Toronto: FVV?

That's half the lottery teams. Plus some may value Miller over Scoot, because most of the teams are idiots.

I think there is a good chance of us getting Scoot at 3. Not sure he would drop to 4, though.

Hollinger has Cam Whitmore at #3 and Miller at #4.


I give a very small chance that the Spurs don't make their pick no matter where they land. There's no player in the top 6 that wouldn't improve this team.

Ag Natural said:

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Hollinger has Cam Whitmore at #3 and Miller at #4.


I give a very small chance that the Spurs don't make their pick no matter where they land. There's no player in the top 6 that wouldn't improve this team.

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The Ringer (KOC) has:

2. Miller
3. Scoot
4. Amen
5. Ausar
6. Black
7. Hendrick
8. Walker
9. Whitmore
10. Kobe Bufkin

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/

Nice in depth on each

The Athletic's Sam V:
https://theathletic.com/4471377/2023/05/02/nba-draft-2023-big-board-prospects-wembanyama/

Scoot
Miller
Amen
Whitmore
Hendricks
Ausar
Black
Walker
Wallace

Here is Hollinger: https://theathletic.com/4520965/2023/05/16/nba-draft-2023-hollinger-top-20-prospects/

Crazy he drops Amen to 6th and has Dereck Lively all the way up at 8 and Walker all the way down to 12.


Walker measured in 6'6.6 barefoot with 7'3 wingspan and 250lbs at the combine.

I'm not sure how the Spurs feel about the twins. There's a lot of risk there it seems. If the Spurs somehow end up with 5-6-7 then I could see Black being the target. Solid player with high floor. I like him more than Whitmore personally.

The twins are definitely the wildcards.

Guitarsoup said:

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Ag Natural said:

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Hollinger has Cam Whitmore at #3 and Miller at #4.


I give a very small chance that the Spurs don't make their pick no matter where they land. There's no player in the top 6 that wouldn't improve this team.

---

The Ringer (KOC) has:

2. Miller
3. Scoot
4. Amen
5. Ausar
6. Black
7. Hendrick
8. Walker
9. Whitmore
10. Kobe Bufkin

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/

Nice in depth on each

The Athletic's Sam V:
https://theathletic.com/4471377/2023/05/02/nba-draft-2023-big-board-prospects-wembanyama/

Scoot
Miller
Amen
Whitmore
Hendricks
Ausar
Black
Walker
Wallace

Here is Hollinger: https://theathletic.com/4520965/2023/05/16/nba-draft-2023-hollinger-top-20-prospects/

Crazy he drops Amen to 6th and has Dereck Lively all the way up at 8 and Walker all the way down to 12.


Walker measured in 6'6.6 barefoot with 7'3 wingspan and 250lbs at the combine.

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If we get 5 or 6 I'd actually pretty intrigued to see Black as the pick. The length and basketball IQ he has paired with Sochan would be pretty interesting.

Scoot is a PG that can change a franchise

Agree with both of you. If we drop in the draft, I think Black is the choice. He makes intelligent decisions and has a great body for the NBA.

Black combine measurements:

6'6 barefoot
6'7.5 wingspan
Standing reach: 8'6.5
210 lbs
Max Vertical: 39"
Max Vertical reach: 11'9.5" (#1 for PGs, would be 5th for SFs, PFs, or Centers that attended the combine)

If we end up with someone else in the first round, I like taking Marcus Sasser from UH at 32.

6'1 barefoot
6'7 wingspan
196 lbs

Combine numbers are still trickling in.

Taylor Hendricks is another guy I like if we drop and he measured at 6'8.5 barefoot and 7'1 wingspan

I like Hendricks but I don't think he's a top 7 pick guy personally. Same goes for Jarace Walker. I'm also pretty skeptical of the twins although it's hard to ignore Amen's athleticism.

I think things really start to drop after the top 3. Really hope the ping pong balls fall our way tonight. The last time we sent a Holt we had good luck.

I think right now I go something like this:

1. Wemby
2. Scoot
3. Miller
4. Black
5. Whitmore
6. Amen
7. Ausar

4-6 I keep flipping round.

I think there's a very good chance at #3 for Scoot too. Trying to think through worst case scenarios for us if we're not top 2.

superunknown said:

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I think there's a very good chance at #3 for Scoot too. Trying to think through worst case scenarios for us if we're not top 2.

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I could see a scenario where we trade down if we are at 3 and someone else wants Miller, but he isn't on our big board. Something like the Luka/Trae trade.