The head of the NTSB investigation is a coworkers neighbor. Small world.

Sea Speed said:

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Yall want tugs on every ship for the whole transit get ready to pay 2x for your goods ha. Who do you think pays for that in the end?

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haven't had to pay for a tug in a while.

what is the going rate?

For anyone interested in failures of large ships, there is a book called The Tankship Tromedy about the failure rates of tankers and their design and engineering flaws. Most ships are a single point failure away from something like this.

I've been on 2 or 3 ships that have blacked out. Not the way you want to wake up when you're the Captain, ill tell you that. At least they can't say anything about being on the bridge in underwear.

Sea Speed said:

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For anyone interested in failures of large ships, there is a book called The Tankship Tromedy about the failure rates of tankers and their design and engineering flaws. Most ships are a single point failure away from something like this.

I've been on 2 or 3 ships that have blacked out. Not the way you want to wake up when you're the Captain, ill tell you that. At least they can't say anything about being on the bridge in underwear.

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That could be the catalyst to impose adding additional tugs to push ships further out...

I'm NOT saying they'll do that. But government regulators often knee jerk solutions.

While the maritime industry is a reactive one, I dont see that being the case. Tugs aren't magic either, they can't keep up with the speeds most ships do in several parts of a lot of transits and they also lose their effectiveness at higher speeds. It is not as simple as just saying "2 tugs everywhere" . Sure maybe in certain spots, but not across the board. Pilots can and do order tugs in random places depending on condition of the ship. Here's a single tug following an outbound ship in bolivar roads a few days ago. I honestly don't think this tug would be ae to do much because he wasn't made up and the ship was going nearly over 8 knots iirc. You're just gonna part lines. I add this picture because this is a weird sight to see outbound in the roads.

What about just having safety tugs near bridges such as this. They don't have to follow every ship, but just be in strategic locations so maybe when they get that mayday signal to spring into action and nudge / push it just enough to avoid a direct hit?

***this is obviously a newb comment and I have no idea if that's feasible or if they would actually be able to redirect it enough in that short amount of time to do anything.

Cost benefit isn't there. Last time a bridge was hit was probably 20 years ago in Oklahoma? Plus you are reliant on humans making a quick decision constantly. Risk for failure is high.

Much better to build bridges with dolphins around the pilings. More expensive, but work 24/7 without pay. I doubt the Key bridge had any since it is almost 50 years old.

Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno said:

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What about just having safety tugs near bridges such as this. They don't have to follow every ship, but just be in strategic locations so maybe when they get that mayday signal to spring into action and nudge / push it just enough to avoid a direct hit?

***this is obviously a newb comment and I have no idea if that's feasible or if they would actually be able to redirect it enough in that short amount of time to do anything.

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I believe USACE has some stationed upstream of the Mississippi River Control Structure to catch runaway barges and divert them away so they don't destroy the gates and let the Mississippi reroute to the Atchafalya Basin like it wants to.

Pro Sandy said:

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Cost benefit isn't there. Last time a bridge was hit was probably 20 years ago in Oklahoma? Plus you are reliant on humans making a quick decision constantly. Risk for failure is high.

Much better to build bridges with dolphins around the pilings. More expensive, but work 24/7 without pay. I doubt the Key bridge had any since it is almost 50 years old.

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Dolphins?

Concrete in front of the bridge

Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Cost benefit isn't there. Last time a bridge was hit was probably 20 years ago in Oklahoma? Plus you are reliant on humans making a quick decision constantly. Risk for failure is high.

Much better to build bridges with dolphins around the pilings. More expensive, but work 24/7 without pay. I doubt the Key bridge had any since it is almost 50 years old.

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Dolphins?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_(structure)

Old Sunshine Skyway at bottom (no dolphins), note how half of one of the spans is missing.

New Sunshine Skyway, still standing currently, with dolphins.

Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Cost benefit isn't there. Last time a bridge was hit was probably 20 years ago in Oklahoma? Plus you are reliant on humans making a quick decision constantly. Risk for failure is high.

Much better to build bridges with dolphins around the pilings. More expensive, but work 24/7 without pay. I doubt the Key bridge had any since it is almost 50 years old.

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Dolphins?

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"At the Commodore Barry, those piers are protected by rock islands that we've constructed around the piers that would cause a ship to run aground on the island before it could strike the peer," he said.

The Besty Ross Bridge also has prevention measures, Hanson said.

"We've got concrete dolphins. They're called dolphins. They're substantial concrete structures that protect the piers from being struck by ships of this nature and are constantly undergoing inspections," he said. "Every four years our entire system is inspected. The bridges and trainline are comprehensively inspected every two years."

From this article: https://whyy.org/articles/philadelphia-baltimore-bridge-collapse-vulnerability/

Ty!!

Fall92 said:

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My maritime lawyer friend took this pic just yesterday at deposition in Baltimore.

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Maritime lawyer?

What convenient timing

did they give updates this evening re: any further recoveries from sunken vehicles?

found the answer:

The Coast Guard ended its search late Tuesday for six construction workers who were on a bridge in Baltimore when it was rammed by a massive cargo ship and collapsed into the Patapsco River.

"At this point, we do not believe we are going to find any of these individuals still alive," Rear Adm. Shannon Gilreath said at a news conference just after dusk, citing the cold water temperatures and the length of time since the overnight collapse.

C@LAg said:

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BassCowboy33 said:

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torrid said:

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I assume ships have the equivalent of the voice and flight data recorders on airplanes?

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Yes. And I'd bet the USCG already has it.

If you look at the AIS plotter, the Dali veered just a few degrees off the main channel, and bam.

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not yet.

press conference going on now.

no physical contact with the boat yet. all contact with the boat so far has just been boat to USCG radio chat

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Gordon.

SoP ***** shaped route was not used prior to clogging this trade route?

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/03/26/us/baltimore-bridge-collapse

evening update summary (more in link to NYT above):
A few minutes before the Dali cargo ship crashed into the Francis Scott Key Bridge early Tuesday, the vessel had a "complete blackout" that knocked out power to the engine and navigation equipment, an industry official said. Though the ship's backup generators had kicked on, restoring some power, the propulsion system remained offline.

He was told by the Maryland pilots' group that the vessel had a "complete blackout" a few minutes before the crash and never regained propulsion power.

A Coast Guard official said Tuesday night that officials were suspending the active search-and-rescue effort, with the six people missing after the bridge collapse presumed dead.

Col. Roland L. Butler of the Maryland State Police said divers would return to the water at 6 a.m. Wednesday to try to recover the bodies of the six missing construction workers.

Several large automakers said on Tuesday that they were working to reroute shipments of cars because of the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore.

The Port of Baltimore plays an important role in the shipment of vehicles and handled more than 750,000 cars and trucks in 2023, according to the Maryland Port Administration.

Sea Speed said:

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Concrete in front of the bridge

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A friend of mine was a big time maritime lawyer, he did cases for alot of these huge cargo ships that caught fire, many of them chemical cargo ships carrying iso-tainers that caught fire at sea. he also did alot of work for the port of Houston… there are more Allisions with the docs and other stationary equipment that people never hear of, he said the ships constantly hit things in these ports, he had to recover money for the port to fix the docs and other equipment they messed up

Hell just the last few years in Houston two barges hit one another in the Houston ship channel and one barge was full of benzene I believe .. it dumped into Galveston bay..

The average Joe who knows little about maritime events probably wouldn't know this…

fullback44 said:

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Sea Speed said:

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Concrete in front of the bridge

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A friend of mine was a big time maritime lawyer, he did cases for alot of these huge cargo ships that caught fire, many of them chemical cargo ships carrying iso-tainers that caught fire at sea. he also did alot of work for the port of Houston… there are more Allisions with the docs and other stationary equipment that people never hear of, he said the ships constantly hit things in these ports, he had to recover money for the port to fix the docs and other equipment they messed up

Hell just the last few years in Houston two barges hit one another in the Houston ship channel and one barge was full of benzene I believe .. it dumped into Galveston bay..

The average Joe who knows little about maritime events probably wouldn't know this…

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That probably helped clean up Galveston Bay...

I hate to think about where a 30,000 barrel barge of benzene went …. Don't be eating trout in Galveston bay

fullback44 said:

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I hate to think about where a 30,000 barrel barge of benzene went …. Don't be eating trout in Galveston bay

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simple...if the fish glow, let it go. this has been the motto in china for 30+ years.

fullback44 said:

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I hate to think about where a 30,000 barrel barge of benzene went …. Don't be eating trout in Galveston bay

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Probably mostly evaporated.

Fall92 said:

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My maritime lawyer friend took this pic just yesterday at deposition in Baltimore.

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I notice that the outgoing container ship is towards the right side of the channel, and NOT going through the center between the 2 spans. I imagine that's the normal departure lane for shipping.

See below regarding tugboats. Also, see the following: "In 2016, the ship was found to have hull damage and in June 2023 an inspection found problems with "propulsion and auxiliary machinery.""

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/community/transportation/baltimore-bridge-dali-tugboat-rules-E4DIYO7MUVDOFHR7Y3YJOGOY3A/

Quote:

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Could Key Bridge crash have been avoided if ship had tugboat guides?
Greg Morton, Ramsey Archibald, Emily Sullivan and Matti Gellman
3/26/2024 7:30 p.m. EDT The Baltimore Banner

As the Singapore cargo ship Dali shoved off from the Port of Baltimore's Seagirt Marine Terminal, two tugboats initially helped maneuver it away, then peeled off 20 minutes before the ship crashed into the Francis Scott Key Bridge.

Several pilots and tugboat captains wondered, would two powerful tugboats have been able to push the ship toward the channel and avoid a collision with the bridge in the crucial minutes during which the Dali lost power and black smoke began billowing from the stern.

Cargo ships heading in and out of the Baltimore harbor are guided by tugboats that flank the ship on each side while a Chesapeake Bay pilot on board gives navigational commands to the ship's bridge and captain.

Ship tracking data from marinetraffic.com showed the Dali was headed toward the Key Bridge unaccompanied when it crashed into the bridge early Tuesday morning. Two tugboats, both operated by McAllister Towing and Transportation, helped the Dali out of the dock between 12:30 a.m. and 1 a.m. Those tugboats left the cargo ship around 1:09 a.m. The Dali begins veering right and away from the main channel at 1:25 a.m., four minutes and 23 seconds before it struck the bridge.....

....."Ship owners don't like tug escorts because you need to pay for them," said Ahlstrom, who also teaches safety management classes at SUNY Maritime. "But passing under a bridge like this, it may be necessary."

Kurt Gray, a former tugboat captain, said that many ships are escorted by at least two tugboats running within 30 to 40 feet on either side of the ship as it maneuvered under the Key Bridge. "If the pilot released the assist tugs, as in he didn't need them anymore, then it seems normal that they peeled off. It is not uncommon. This would be documented in the captain's log of the ship as well as the captain's log on the tugs.".....

.....The vessel was last inspected in September by the U.S. Coast Guard, which found no deficiencies, according to an online database maintained by Electronic Quality Shipping Information System. Out of the 27 inspections documented for Dali since 2015, two have found deficiencies. In 2016, the ship was found to have hull damage and in June 2023 an inspection found problems with "propulsion and auxiliary machinery."

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Probably this, but not benzene

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20210330.aspx

insulator_king said:

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Fall92 said:

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My maritime lawyer friend took this pic just yesterday at deposition in Baltimore.

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I notice that the outgoing container ship is towards the right side of the channel, and NOT going through the center between the 2 spans. I imagine that's the normal departure lane for shipping.

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If you look at the wake you can see he went through the center and is now past the bridge...

So, what's the length of time before they get a new bridge up? Five years? Ten years?

Living in Baltimore already sucked balls because it's a leading US ****hole. And now triple or quadruple your commute on top of it.

That place is about to suck even harder and that's hard to do.

OverSeas AG said:

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Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Cost benefit isn't there. Last time a bridge was hit was probably 20 years ago in Oklahoma? Plus you are reliant on humans making a quick decision constantly. Risk for failure is high.

Much better to build bridges with dolphins around the pilings. More expensive, but work 24/7 without pay. I doubt the Key bridge had any since it is almost 50 years old.

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Dolphins?

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"At the Commodore Barry, those piers are protected by rock islands that we've constructed around the piers that would cause a ship to run aground on the island before it could strike the peer," he said.

The Besty Ross Bridge also has prevention measures, Hanson said.

"We've got concrete dolphins. They're called dolphins. They're substantial concrete structures that protect the piers from being struck by ships of this nature and are constantly undergoing inspections," he said. "Every four years our entire system is inspected. The bridges and trainline are comprehensively inspected every two years."

From this article: https://whyy.org/articles/philadelphia-baltimore-bridge-collapse-vulnerability/

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Looks like they have protection around the power lines near the bridge. Why they don't put dolphins around major port bridges surprises me given the cost of a failure even though it is rare.

C@LAg said:

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Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno said:

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Dolphins?

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Yes. the propulsion they generate with their tails pushes back on the ships and slows them down.

Here is a small pod of Norwegian trained dolphins helping slow this oil tanker before it enters port.

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Finally a graphic that makes some sense out of the term "dolphins".


Starlings must work by a similar principle: