Lathspell said:

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I reject all of that.

I don't care what Hal MAY have thought. She literally shot a man in the head. Not just a man, but a man who was a hero to this planet. Hal had to pay his debt to society by going to prison for something I would not say is his fault. That's some absolute bull*****

I also reject Jon placing his own personal morals above everyone else and we as the audience should just be expected to accept them. Ultimately, he's saying he knows best and anything he determines to be right IS in fact right. As FL_Ag stated, this entire season we have been shown how manhunters are expert manipulators and leave wakes of destruction in their path. If Noah wants to prove he is no threat, then he should move out to the middle of nowhere, in seclusion and exile. Instead, he's literally going to do what he told Jon he was planning to do, simply to gain power.

Jon isn't siding with the people of Earth. He is siding with himself and his own personal ideas. If he would side with the people of Earth, then he has no right to act as judge and jury for the murderer of Hal Jordan. Let the people of Earth decide what should be done to her. On top of that, let the people of Earth decide what to do with the manhunter.

There's a reason the guardians would send the entire corps to Earth, if they knew there was still a manhunter here. Manhunters destroy worlds. Ultimately, Jon has set himself up as the self-appointed monarch of Earth. Jon is not Jesus Christ.

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However, John's actions are totally in line with the way his crazy ass delusional, entitled, power & fame hungry mom raised him.

Either way, the end of his character arc is not a "hero", to me. He is a villain at this point, or at best, anti-hero. I am very disappointed with where they took this character. I was wanting Jon Stewart to be a Lantern worth the mantle. Where he ends up, isn't he basically in line with Sinestro's way of thinking?

Ultimately, there isn't a single character I can point to as one I like. I think the best character is probably Projection Hal.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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CharleyKerfeld said:

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Quote:

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I have a hard time believing Jon Stewart is a good guy. So, he covers up the murder of Hal Jordan, steals his ring, and uses a lantern built by Sinestro to power it? How are any of these things the actions of a hero at the end of his character arc?

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Knowing Hal and knowing Kerry the way he does, it's doubtful Hal would have wanted her arrested for his murder. There's nothing to be gained there, other than more hurt.

John is then acting with is own moral compass in taking the ring and the lantern. He's breaking "the rules" of the Lantern Corps but those rules are created by Guardians who are some shady mofos who pushed his parents to raise him to be a slave to the Guardians' oversight, then tried to get him to kill Hal Jordan, and never once gave him a clear picture of what was going on.
He sides with the people of Earth as opposed to the Galactic Lords and decides he can avoid what happened to Hal by focusing only on the planet he's from rather than zooming around the galaxy and getting jaded over time.

His decisions with Noah and Noah's decisions with him are the real proof of this. If the Guardians knew a second manhunter was on Earth, they'd send wave after waves of GLs to put him down. But John is able to recognize that Noah, despite his nature, is an innocent. He has had bad ideas and even taken steps towards them, but hasn't gone through with any of them. John and Hal are told that Manhunters are relentless killing machines, which they can be, but both of them have also witnessed Manhunters being compassionate and benevolent on Earth. At the end, John decides to stop being a soldier and start being a leader.

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Manhunters are deceivers and manipulators. For example, the granny manhunter manipulated that whole town in order to stay hidden and protected - purely out of self-interest, not because she was compassionate and benevolent. That was made clear by the fact that whenever she helped someone it was a quid pro quo agreement. She helped them so that in return she could use them to help her later. She was essentially a mix of a cult leader and mafia boss.

That was made very clear, so the best explanation for the ending is actually that Noah easily manipulated simpleminded John, just like John was manipulated by Noah's granny manhunter.

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But Noah was also raised as human, he's only a manhunter because of how he was created.

All of his actions show an individual who's compassionate, caring, and truly looks out for others. But he also recognizes what's inside him and knows that he has to make the choice to reject it.

fig96 said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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CharleyKerfeld said:

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Quote:

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I have a hard time believing Jon Stewart is a good guy. So, he covers up the murder of Hal Jordan, steals his ring, and uses a lantern built by Sinestro to power it? How are any of these things the actions of a hero at the end of his character arc?

---

Knowing Hal and knowing Kerry the way he does, it's doubtful Hal would have wanted her arrested for his murder. There's nothing to be gained there, other than more hurt.

John is then acting with is own moral compass in taking the ring and the lantern. He's breaking "the rules" of the Lantern Corps but those rules are created by Guardians who are some shady mofos who pushed his parents to raise him to be a slave to the Guardians' oversight, then tried to get him to kill Hal Jordan, and never once gave him a clear picture of what was going on.
He sides with the people of Earth as opposed to the Galactic Lords and decides he can avoid what happened to Hal by focusing only on the planet he's from rather than zooming around the galaxy and getting jaded over time.

His decisions with Noah and Noah's decisions with him are the real proof of this. If the Guardians knew a second manhunter was on Earth, they'd send wave after waves of GLs to put him down. But John is able to recognize that Noah, despite his nature, is an innocent. He has had bad ideas and even taken steps towards them, but hasn't gone through with any of them. John and Hal are told that Manhunters are relentless killing machines, which they can be, but both of them have also witnessed Manhunters being compassionate and benevolent on Earth. At the end, John decides to stop being a soldier and start being a leader.

---

Manhunters are deceivers and manipulators. For example, the granny manhunter manipulated that whole town in order to stay hidden and protected - purely out of self-interest, not because she was compassionate and benevolent. That was made clear by the fact that whenever she helped someone it was a quid pro quo agreement. She helped them so that in return she could use them to help her later. She was essentially a mix of a cult leader and mafia boss.

That was made very clear, so the best explanation for the ending is actually that Noah easily manipulated simpleminded John, just like John was manipulated by Noah's granny manhunter.

---

But Noah was also raised as human, he's only a manhunter because of how he was created.

All of his actions show an individual who's compassionate, caring, and truly looks out for others. But he also recognizes what's inside him and knows that he has to make the choice to reject it.

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Are you sure about that? Manipulators deceive through actions and words. And even if he decides to make the proper choices now, are we sure he'll deny his manhunter "genetics" forever? What makes John so sure?

bobinator said:

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schmendeler said:

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There was manhunter in that little town for decades(?) and the killing only started when that alien crew looking for revenge showed up. So perhaps the rhetoric about manhunters being remorseless killing machines was wrong or at least not 100% fact.

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Real Nazi's-hiding-in-Argentina energy here.

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Makes sense because the Noah conversation is a "kill baby Hitler"-type scenario as well

Lathspell said:

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I reject all of that.

I don't care what Hal MAY have thought. She literally shot a man in the head. Not just a man, but a man who was a hero to this planet. Hal had to pay his debt to society by going to prison for something I would not say is his fault. That's some absolute bull*****

I also reject Jon placing his own personal morals above everyone else and we as the audience should just be expected to accept them. Ultimately, he's saying he knows best and anything he determines to be right IS in fact right. As FL_Ag stated, this entire season we have been shown how manhunters are expert manipulators and leave wakes of destruction in their path. If Noah wants to prove he is no threat, then he should move out to the middle of nowhere, in seclusion and exile. Instead, he's literally going to do what he told Jon he was planning to do, simply to gain power.

Jon isn't siding with the people of Earth. He is siding with himself and his own personal ideas. If he would side with the people of Earth, then he has no right to act as judge and jury for the murderer of Hal Jordan. Let the people of Earth decide what should be done to her. On top of that, let the people of Earth decide what to do with the manhunter.

There's a reason the guardians would send the entire corps to Earth, if they knew there was still a manhunter here. Manhunters destroy worlds. Ultimately, Jon has set himself up as the self-appointed monarch of Earth. Jon is not Jesus Christ.

---

This is literally why Jon, and Hal to an extent, go against the Guardians to begin with.

My issue is not that I'm saying the Guardians are amazing and everything they decide is right. I honestly know nothing about them. My issue is Jon himself. Again, I do not believe it is up to Jon to decide Kerry should have no repercussions for murdering a man for no reason.

Again, an earlier poster said Jon chose humanity over space people. I have no issue with this idea, but it's NOT what Jon did. Jon chose himself and his personal morality over the space people AND humanity.

Lathspell said:

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Either way, the end of his character arc is not a "hero", to me. He is a villain at this point, or at best, anti-hero. I am very disappointed with where they took this character. I was wanting Jon Stewart to be a Lantern worth the mantle. Where he ends up, isn't he basically in line with Sinestro's way of thinking?

Ultimately, there isn't a single character I can point to as one I like. I think the best character is probably Projection Hal.

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I have no idea how they are going to play out the DCU version of the guardians, but your opinion would be complete opposite if you read a lot of the comics. The Guardians generally are not what humans would consider good. They look good on the surface, but they are pretty terrible.

I've never read the comics, but I did watch some of the 70s/80s cartoons, so…

Sinestro forges a lantern with yellow cracks on a fear-infested planet, and it's not a lantern to power a yellow ring of fear?

Lathspell said:

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My issue is not that I'm saying the Guardians are amazing and everything they decide is right. I honestly know nothing about them. My issue is Jon himself. Again, I do not believe it is up to Jon to decide Kerry should have no repercussions for murdering a man for no reason.

Again, an earlier poster said Jon chose humanity over space people. I have no issue with this idea, but it's NOT what Jon did. Jon chose himself and his personal morality over the space people AND humanity.

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That was the point of the last 20 minutes of the show. Jon is making it his job to decide the fate of Kerry and the manhunter. Without the influence of the Guardians. Which is extremely flawed.

Cliff Booth said:

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I've never read the comics, but I did watch some of the 70s/80s cartoons, so…

Sinestro forges a lantern with yellow cracks on a fear-infested planet, and it's not a lantern to power a yellow ring of fear?

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I think that's where we're headed, but it didn't say that right out.

Cliff Booth said:

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I've never read the comics, but I did watch some of the 70s/80s cartoons, so…

Sinestro forges a lantern with yellow cracks on a fear-infested planet, and it's not a lantern to power a yellow ring of fear?

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EDIT: Sorry, I thought you were a different Cliff. That ones is still languishing in a well in the bottom of Backyard Gator's house while BG finishes the skin suit.

Loved the show but...

John saying "ax" in the most unnatural way possible

10am - school assembly followed by lab room talk.
Storage unit, desert walk, lake paddle, sinestro water boarding, lake paddle, desert walk
Still time to make 7pm kickoff?

Ok, when did Hal have time to rent another house and booby trap it before telling Kerry? Because it seemed like he told her immediately after he found out.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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fig96 said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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CharleyKerfeld said:

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Quote:

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I have a hard time believing Jon Stewart is a good guy. So, he covers up the murder of Hal Jordan, steals his ring, and uses a lantern built by Sinestro to power it? How are any of these things the actions of a hero at the end of his character arc?

---

Knowing Hal and knowing Kerry the way he does, it's doubtful Hal would have wanted her arrested for his murder. There's nothing to be gained there, other than more hurt.

John is then acting with is own moral compass in taking the ring and the lantern. He's breaking "the rules" of the Lantern Corps but those rules are created by Guardians who are some shady mofos who pushed his parents to raise him to be a slave to the Guardians' oversight, then tried to get him to kill Hal Jordan, and never once gave him a clear picture of what was going on.
He sides with the people of Earth as opposed to the Galactic Lords and decides he can avoid what happened to Hal by focusing only on the planet he's from rather than zooming around the galaxy and getting jaded over time.

His decisions with Noah and Noah's decisions with him are the real proof of this. If the Guardians knew a second manhunter was on Earth, they'd send wave after waves of GLs to put him down. But John is able to recognize that Noah, despite his nature, is an innocent. He has had bad ideas and even taken steps towards them, but hasn't gone through with any of them. John and Hal are told that Manhunters are relentless killing machines, which they can be, but both of them have also witnessed Manhunters being compassionate and benevolent on Earth. At the end, John decides to stop being a soldier and start being a leader.

---

Manhunters are deceivers and manipulators. For example, the granny manhunter manipulated that whole town in order to stay hidden and protected - purely out of self-interest, not because she was compassionate and benevolent. That was made clear by the fact that whenever she helped someone it was a quid pro quo agreement. She helped them so that in return she could use them to help her later. She was essentially a mix of a cult leader and mafia boss.

That was made very clear, so the best explanation for the ending is actually that Noah easily manipulated simpleminded John, just like John was manipulated by Noah's granny manhunter.

---

But Noah was also raised as human, he's only a manhunter because of how he was created.

All of his actions show an individual who's compassionate, caring, and truly looks out for others. But he also recognizes what's inside him and knows that he has to make the choice to reject it.

---

Are you sure about that? Manipulators deceive through actions and words. And even if he decides to make the proper choices now, are we sure he'll deny his manhunter "genetics" forever? What makes John so sure?

---

At this point, there's no indication that's made choices to damage anyone else, he had the chance to multiple times and didn't.

Is it possible that will flip? Sure, which is why I said he has to make that choice. And there's no indication that John is trusting that he will, I think he mentioned he's going to keep an eye on him. That very well could be part of the future of the show.

I think by the end of the show we are meant to question everything that the manhunters represent.

We take at face value the word of Antaan that the Manhunter destroyed his whole planet. He makes John see certain memories and then we wind up on that planet with it being a dead world other than Sinestro.

Those same aliens are the ones who bring war to Rushville. Yes, the manhunter has an armed posse, a compound full of high-powered tech, and specific anti-Green Lantern defenses, but she's clearly not killing anyone out of hand. Nobody's sick, nobody's dying, it's a bit of a "Big Brother" environment, sure, but there aren't forcefields around the town keeping anyone in or out.
The aliens cause the shooting at the football game and are the ones turning themselves into living bombs that are taking out city blocks in an attempt to kill the manhunter.

I'm not suggesting that the manhunter is 100% blameless for Antaan's world, but let's face it, we're only getting one side of the story and taking it as the perfect truth.

dummble said:

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Loved the show but...

John saying "ax" in the most unnatural way possible

10am - school assembly followed by lab room talk.
Storage unit, desert walk, lake paddle, sinestro water boarding, lake paddle, desert walk
Still time to make 7pm kickoff?

Ok, when did Hal have time to rent another house and booby trap it before telling Kerry? Because it seemed like he told her immediately after he found out.

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1st point: yeah, that's annoying

2nd point: All the off world stuff could be explained by time dilation. That could have been 5 Earth minutes.

3rd point: He knew at least a few days. He was healed, then followed him to the other world, found out about Sinestro and his plans, and then talked to Jon before getting killed by Kerry.

CharleyKerfeld said:

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I think by the end of the show we are meant to question everything that the manhunters represent.

We take at face value the word of Antaan that the Manhunter destroyed his whole planet. He makes John see certain memories and then we wind up on that planet with it being a dead world other than Sinestro.

Those same aliens are the ones who bring war to Rushville. Yes, the manhunter has an armed posse, a compound full of high-powered tech, and specific anti-Green Lantern defenses, but she's clearly not killing anyone out of hand. Nobody's sick, nobody's dying, it's a bit of a "Big Brother" environment, sure, but there aren't forcefields around the town keeping anyone in or out.
The aliens cause the shooting at the football game and are the ones turning themselves into living bombs that are taking out city blocks in an attempt to kill the manhunter.

I'm not suggesting that the manhunter is 100% blameless for Antaan's world, but let's face it, we're only getting one side of the story and taking it as the perfect truth.

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I definitely agree with your overall point (although I'm 100% behind Bobinator that you're just searching for ways to hide bad writing) simply because I think the writers could have done a whole lot better fleshing out more details of this world. Good writers can leave the viewer with questions about the overall character intentions or deeper meaning of the show, but they flesh out the smaller details of the world that the show happens in so that the viewer knows exactly what the questions are meant to be. There's so much about these characters and the world the show takes place in that the writers flip flopped on or left too vague.

Average Joe said:

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dummble said:

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Loved the show but...

John saying "ax" in the most unnatural way possible

10am - school assembly followed by lab room talk.
Storage unit, desert walk, lake paddle, sinestro water boarding, lake paddle, desert walk
Still time to make 7pm kickoff?

Ok, when did Hal have time to rent another house and booby trap it before telling Kerry? Because it seemed like he told her immediately after he found out.

---

1st point: yeah, that's annoying

2nd point: All the off world stuff could be explained by time dilation. That could have been 5 Earth minutes.

3rd point: He knew at least a few days. He was healed, then followed him to the other world, found out about Sinestro and his plans, and then talked to Jon before getting killed by Kerry.

---

The "ax" stuff was just embarrassing by them. Stupid, plain stupid and somewhat racist if we're being honest.

And the other points require us to just handwaive aways pesky little details and ignore them....in other words amatuer writing.

You know you are right about the 3rd point. He did follow the kid around to find the portal and hide it.

Some jumps in logic from some of you. I never actually claimed Noah should be killed by Jon.

I think the grandmother deserved judgment and death for what she did to an entire planet and the Lantern she coerced and manipulated. I don't care if she was sitting peacefully in a small Nebraska town and never killed another soul. Jon killing her is not something I take issue with, nor would I blame Jon for feeling guilt for doing it because she had manipulated him.

But Noah literally sat in the car and voiced his ideations to Jon. After a conversation like this, if Jon truly sees himself as the protector of Earth, he should give Noah no leeway. I would tell him he will live a meek life with no attempts to gather power. He is, in essence, telling an alcoholic he's okay with him sipping wine every night as long as he agrees never to drink in excess again. That is just enabling, and the stakes are too high.

And I will not concede this "what Hal would have wanted" bs. She killed a man for no reason. If Jon, and Noah for that matter, were truly good, they would turn her over to the authorities.

All of this should be true for a HERO. What we were given at the end of this series is a villain. Maybe a complicated one who's decisions can be understood, if not condoned, but a villain nonetheless.

Quote:

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All of this should be true for a HERO. What we were given at the end of this series is a villain. Maybe a complicated one who's decisions can be understood, if not condoned, but a villain nonetheless.

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Bingo. John's arc would make perfect sense if they were setting him up to form the Yellow Lanterns with Sinestro.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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Average Joe said:

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dummble said:

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Loved the show but...

John saying "ax" in the most unnatural way possible

10am - school assembly followed by lab room talk.
Storage unit, desert walk, lake paddle, sinestro water boarding, lake paddle, desert walk
Still time to make 7pm kickoff?

Ok, when did Hal have time to rent another house and booby trap it before telling Kerry? Because it seemed like he told her immediately after he found out.

---

1st point: yeah, that's annoying

2nd point: All the off world stuff could be explained by time dilation. That could have been 5 Earth minutes.

3rd point: He knew at least a few days. He was healed, then followed him to the other world, found out about Sinestro and his plans, and then talked to Jon before getting killed by Kerry.

---

The "ax" stuff was just embarrassing by them. Stupid, plain stupid and somewhat racist if we're being honest.

And the other points require us to just handwaive aways pesky little details and ignore them....in other words amatuer writing.

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I disagree.

I think it's stupid that they should have to account for every second of the day. The fact that people are looking up the number of miles between cities, discussing how long a day is on an alien planet, and how long it takes to find a new place to live in a city with less than 1000 people is just stupid. Especially if all of them can be explained with basic common sense. I don't need the entire thing spoon fed to me.

Lathspell said:

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Some jumps in logic from some of you. I never actually claimed Noah should be killed by Jon.

I think the grandmother deserved judgment and death for what she did to an entire planet and the Lantern she coerced and manipulated. I don't care if she was sitting peacefully in a small Nebraska town and never killed another soul. Jon killing her is not something I take issue with, nor would I blame Jon for feeling guilt for doing it because she had manipulated him.

But Noah literally sat in the car and voiced his ideations to Jon. After a conversation like this, if Jon truly sees himself as the protector of Earth, he should give Noah no leeway. I would tell him he will live a meek life with no attempts to gather power. He is, in essence, telling an alcoholic he's okay with him sipping wine every night as long as he agrees never to drink in excess again. That is just enabling, and the stakes are too high.

And I will not concede this "what Hal would have wanted" bs. She killed a man for no reason. If Jon, and Noah for that matter, were truly good, they would turn her over to the authorities.

All of this should be true for a HERO. What we were given at the end of this series is a villain. Maybe a complicated one who's decisions can be understood, if not condoned, but a villain nonetheless.

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FWIW, the Guardians would not have cared either way. They don't give a crap about day to day lives of people. They would let a million innocent people die if it meant saving a billion. They are 100% logic and no emotion. A single person killing another person, especially one they outcasted, would not even fall on their radar and they would not care what the GL did.

I both agree and disagree here. There's a level at which you can handwave it and be like "who cares?" but at the same time the heart of this series was a "whodunnit" murder mystery where the details do matter to some degree.

Example of a "who cares?": Why aren't the coaches and team out looking for the star quarterback when the whole town is already in the stadium getting ready for the game! He should be in the locker room! Everyone should be concerned that he's missing!

Example of "well wait a minute...": The characters IN THE SHOW are trying to piece together a timeline of Hal's movements and we have John zipping back and forth to his house twice in one night. His home being fairly far away from Nebraska matters for the plot (it's why he can't meet with the military about his proposal and why his brothers have to get the money to pay off the waitress, for example.)

I'm not, nor have I ever, argued from the PoV of the guardians. I've already said I know nothing about them.

My remarks are strictly from this point of view that Jon is focused on Earth and humans. We have laws and societies on Earth. If he was truly as altruistic as some are pointing out, he would leave that up to the humans.

Again, if the purpose of the show is to give us a villain, then they succeeded. If they are trying to give us a hero to cheer for, I believe they failed.

Can you show your work on the villain thing? I'm not sure I'm following that line of logic.

It is a little weird that he makes a vow to do what is right but lets the sheriff off because she is a scared mom. Murder is… murder and even antihero murderers like the punisher would be against that and pro justice/punishment. Hal maybe wasn't perfect in this world but he was still innocent and shot in the head.

Lathspell said:

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I'm not, nor have I ever, argued from the PoV of the guardians. I've already said I know nothing about them.

My remarks are strictly from this point of view that Jon is focused on Earth and humans. We have laws and societies on Earth. If he was truly as altruistic as some are pointing out, he would leave that up to the humans.

Again, if the purpose of the show is to give us a villain, then they succeeded. If they are trying to give us a hero to cheer for, I believe they failed.

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Failed for you. John is not remotely a villain. By that logic the good guys in the Superman movie , including Superman are villains for interfering in in societies in that conflict and should have left it to the UN

Hes letting her off because thats what Hal would have wanted. In a weird way Hal would have been ok with his own death as it allowed John to solve the problem.

I do see where you are coming from and im sure its not an uncommon opinion, but i just dont see that aspect of the show the same way as far as being a villain

bobinator said:

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Example of a "who cares?": Why aren't the coaches and team out looking for the star quarterback when the whole town is already in the stadium getting ready for the game! He should be in the locker room! Everyone should be concerned that he's missing!

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With you here LOL. My favorite was in episode 7 when they recognized his OL at the signing day ceremony - the 5 guys are all wearing skill position numbers and are smaller than "the quarterback whose butt they protect"