General EPL Discussion/Housery Thread

573,994 Views | 3458 Replies | Last: 13 hrs ago by Texaggie7nine
PJYoung
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wangus12 said:

Yeah I'm gonna say the cheating is still going on



Showstopper
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United's owners don't inject money; they do the opposite, actually. A fair punishment following expulsion for a number of years might be a forced sale to the Glazers, in all honesty. We'd never have to worry about City getting fraudulent money from owners ever again.
Texaggie7nine
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I used the word "injected" to poke fun at the several billion in loans and bonds that the Glazers have legally gotten to service their debt in that time.

Point still stands, Man U had revenue over what City had even with inflated numbers.

Though it looks like City's main point of contention is now that the UAE gov financed the sponsorships that made up that revenue and it was not tied to any of the ownership group's $. Which is legal, Many of the big EPL teams have sponsorships with nation govs.
7nine
Showstopper
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Congratulations you've discovered that advertisers pay for views. This is groundbreaking information no one had before. I'm sorry no company other than fake companies and UAE-controlled companies wanted to pay money to advertise with a club with no fans prior to cheating, including you who didn't jump on the City bandwagon until after City had already won the title in 2 of the previous 3 years as you've explained in your heartwarming story of how you came to support the club that had been the punchline of the northwest prior to getting oil money. Hope you had a really good time at your Diddy party, but it's just about over.
Texaggie7nine
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All you are is exposing your elitist entitlement, the same that created the FFP rules.

Only clubs with history and following like mine deserve to get to spend big and buy up all the good players. Your dinky clubs need to stay in their place. WE can spend, but not you lot.
7nine
Showstopper
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Here's the thing you forget: the rules aren't made by a committee consisting of the "red cartel" as you like to pretend. It's done by a vote of every Premier club. I know City has difficulty with math, but 3 votes out of 20 is a long way from a majority (and I think we are actually dealing with a 2/3 vote). Again, though, if you don't like a competition's rules, you don't have to participate. Hopefully the rules of non-league football will be more to your liking.
Showstopper
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Uh-oh, the "red cartel" is making the government investigate what sounds like the equivalent of tax fraud now. Don't worry, though, I'm sure it's no big deal because they will just need a quick look at the "irrefutable evidence."
PJYoung
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Nation states shouldn't own sports teams. End of story.

It's not like a king is used to taking no for an answer.
Texaggie7nine
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I already explained why smaller club owners would support it. It's still all about enshrining their place, keeping salaries lower and not allowing fair competition when new outside money comes in.

If the FA, EPL and UK as a whole wanted to avoid big money coming from other nations and building up clubs into mega clubs then they could have banned non UK based ownerships long ago. But they wanted all that money injected into the nation's sport because they wanted the EPL to have the best players and to be the best league.

If it REALLY was all about preventing bankruptcies and clubs going into administration then hold owners liable for contracts they agree to that they can't just send it into debt and abandon the club. Have requirements for financial solvency of the ownership group. Require forward investment that cannot be loaned back out or divested or pulled back through dividends. There are so many ways to protect from "bankruptcies" that wouldn't restrict owners who fully are capable of safely injecting their own or fellow investors money into a club well beyond what their current revenue is. That's not the real point of the rules though.

People wouldn't be crying about "unearned trophies" or "unfair advantage", they would be saying "oh you are putting the club in a dangerous situation so you need to be financially held responsible!" if the rules were really about just protecting clubs.

It's a joke what is going on in the media over there will all the crying about how a club owner spending a ton of money into building his club is so detrimental because they didn't do it slow enough. But we all know, it would never be possible for any ownership group with the restrictions. Though they are not as tight now as they were pre 25.


7nine
PJYoung
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I can't believe anybody is legit trying to defend this so thank you for that.

Fascinating.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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PJYoung said:

I can't believe anybody is legit trying to defend this so thank you for that.

Fascinating.

I'm just enjoying the show.
Showstopper
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I mostly quit reading what he says because I think he's actually just trolling; you don't even hear real City fans saying the stuff he tries to sell. The real ones mostly seem to just be on the hopium that the irrefutable evidence is actually real and shows up to make it all go away.

But he replied to me and suckered me in.
Texaggie7nine
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7nine
Texaggie7nine
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I'll patiently wait for anyone to put forward a legitimate argument that what City did was "unfair" in terms of football. They didn't spend beyond every other club. They didn't use ill gotten money. They did what Man United could have done without breaking any rules.

Tell me, what is unfair.

You can't even compare this to what the Clippers did. Or what the Dodgers did. Because those teams got around restrictions EVERY team is held to. Not some sliding restriction that restricts smaller teams more than big teams.
7nine
Mathguy64
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Texaggie7nine said:

I'll patiently wait for anyone to put forward a legitimate argument that what City did was "unfair" in terms of football. They didn't spend beyond every other club. They didn't use ill gotten money. They did what Man United could have done without breaking any rules.

Tell me, what is unfair.


You broke rules that everyone else followed. That alone gave you an unfair advantage over everyone else. And that's not just within the PL. it's in every comp you played in.

You don't get it. The rules you broke gave you an unfair advantage over everyone else that followed them.

And then your little band committed tax fraud. You filed financial paperwork and lied about your finances. That would get you in hot water with the IRS and SEC here.
PJYoung
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Texaggie7nine
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.... gave us an "unfair" advantage over teams that spent more than us?

I won't argue with NC fans or Villa fans ect, They can say "you broke the unfair rules when we didn't and we didn't get to be successful like you" and I get it. But it's really the rules that screw them over, not City. City doesn't keep them from finding ways to get around the rules.



All this is said even if City appeal is rejected. If the money was all legit from the UAE gov and didn't come directly from the ownership through back doors or anything, there wasn't the violation to begin with.

7nine
Mathguy64
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You literally faked the papers. You claimed sponsorships of more than $100MM when it was really $10MM with the sovereign making up the other $90MM. And you filed papers saying the sponsorship was all $100MM.

If you had that level of sponsorship you could have legally spent it. You didn't. That's fraud.

That's what the LA dodgers did. They lied about the income they had. They said their media rights were X but they were really like 1/4X and the owner made up the rest out of the pockets of another company. They falsified their financial papers and inflated their net worth illegally.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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Texaggie7nine said:

I'll patiently wait for anyone to put forward a legitimate argument that what City did was "unfair" in terms of football. They didn't spend beyond every other club. They didn't use ill gotten money. They did what Man United could have done without breaking any rules.

Tell me, what is unfair.

We broke the rules twice. Minor violations. Full cooperation. At the end of the day, we ended up getting docked 8 points.

Your side violated the rules 114 times and refused to cooperate.

Man City is going to be punished and based on our experience, it had damn better be severe.
Texaggie7nine
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Abu dabi gov runs Etihad
Etihad is a legit sponsorship. If they have absolute proof that the full amount of sponsorship money they reported came from Etihad and the gov and not the ownership group, then that is legal.
7nine
rebag00
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Texaggie7nine said:

Abu dabi gov runs Etihad
Etihad is a legit sponsorship. If they have absolute proof that the full amount of sponsorship money they reported came from Etihad and the gov and not the ownership group, then that is legal.

Sheikh Mansour, owner of Man City, is a member of the ruling family of Abu Dhabi. If the leadership of the government of Abu Dhabi is the ruling Al Nahyan family, then Etihad Airways, owned by the government, could be beholden to the Al Nahyan family, and therefore Sheikh Mansour (aka - "the ownership group").

It is fascinating to me that you don't have the intellectual honesty to see how this is all part and parcel of the fraud. I am certain this is exactly the kind of fraud that has been identified in the inquest and will hopefully be made public at some point in the future.
hoosierAG
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114 guilty charges (beyond egregious ones as well), ongoing systemic cheating along with fraud that would land people in jail. They should and better be punished severely.

Yet we still have City fans not only defend it, but champion it as if they are heroes. Incredible …but I guess that's fandom for you.
Texaggie7nine
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hoosierAG said:


Yet we still have City fans not only defend it, but champion it as if they are heroes.

No. We are like Jesus

7nine
Dre_00
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So to sum up...

Rules structures don't really matter unless I establish them. If I don't like the rules, then clearly everyone else is conspiring against and I should be allowed to break them if I want. If you don't let me, then it's just proof there's a conspiracy against me by the establishment.

One thing I've learned is that City fans seem to share the same worldview as their owners. Marriage made in heaven I guess.
Texaggie7nine
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Rules that are meant to keep those that haven't achieved eliteness at a certain point in time from ever achieving it, shouldn't be respected and people should fight to get them overturned.

Now, if the appeal gets denied, and all the following legal interventions that the ownership and their sponsors throw at the league fall flat and City get fined, point deductions, relegated, then we'll accept it and move on.

However I don't know any City fans that have bought into the hyperbolic, overdramatic "this is the worst thing to ever happen to football".

They didn't pay off refs like some clubs have done in the past. They didn't fix matches like some of the red cartel have done in the past. They didn't use performance enhancing drugs like some players have in the past. They didn't hack into opponents databases to steal scouting info like Liverpool did the City. They didn't do anything that other clubs were not allowed to do. In the end, whatever rules they broke, they spent like Man U. They didn't go into debt, they didn't drain $ from their team. They invested their own money into the team and the city.
7nine
Bull Meachem
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Quote:

Rules that are meant to keep those that haven't achieved eliteness at a certain point in time from ever achieving it, shouldn't be respected and people should fight to get them overturned.

Maybe so but thems the rules. If they didn't like them, they either try to change them or they decide to play soccer elsewhere.
Showstopper
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It bears remembering that the Premier League has one of the most equitable distributions between lowest to highest of the broadcasting revenue compared to other leagues, like La Liga which heavily rewards the very top of the table (a.k.a. Real Madrid and Barca). One club has repeatedly sought to make the EPL distribution top heavy like La Liga…

The big blue hypocrite, Manchester City. Keep that in mind when you read this tripe about how benevolent Man City is to the smaller clubs. (Edit: to be clear, they aren't the only one in favor of redistribution, but they sure weren't sticking up for the "little guy;" quite the opposite).
Texaggie7nine
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I've never claimed that City is lookin out for the other clubs. Lliam made the "Jesus" claim :P.

I've noted that fans of clubs with big money owners like NC and Villa seem to be the least critical and sometime even supporting of City, and that makes sense. I would too if I were in their shoes. Hoping that this all gets the conversation going on doing away with these types of rules or amending them in a way that allows financial stable owners that can afford it to invest however much they want into their club.

Hell if City, now that they are bringing in the types of revenues as the other big clubs with a much bigger global fan base, goes and starts supporting FFP type rules to keep the other teams that haven't gotten as big from doing it, I wouldn't cry, because you do what is best for your club, not the rest of the league. However, I wouldn't begrudge any team like a NC from also bending the rules to get more $ into their team, and I certainly wouldn't clutch my pearls if down the road after NC wins a bunch of titles, we find out they were "financially doping" by putting more money than they should have been into their team. I would say "good game", hope you aren't punished too harshly for spending your own money.

One thing that I'm appreciating today is it seems more fans of the red cartel teams are coming out and admitting that they just think it's immoral that any teams but historically successful teams like their own get to spend the kind of money that they do. That they are a special type of aristocracy that no other teams should get to enjoy the success of.
7nine
PJYoung
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lolololololololololol



Quote:

Manchester City's key defence in their appeal against the Premier League guilty verdict is undermined by statements made by their own title sponsor Etihad Airways to the US government in 2015.

City's appeal is based on the claim that commercial contracts were not topped up by the club's owners as an independent commission has found but were instead paid for by the Abu Dhabi government. City argue that this arrangement would be within Premier League rules.

That claim, however, directly contradicts statements submitted by Etihad to the United States' Department of Commerce, Transportation and State during an investigation into state-owned airlines.

In that submission, Etihad Airways stated: "The assertion that the Abu Dhabi government paid for Etihad's sponsorship of English Premier League football club Manchester City is false. In 2011, Etihad and Manchester City entered into a 10-year sponsorship agreement, which included naming rights for Manchester City's stadium. Etihad funded this sponsorship from its own liquidity."

Later in the evidence to the US government, Etihad added: "We are government-owned and have been since our founding. We are and have always been clear that we do not receive any subsidies from the Abu Dhabi government, and that we are financed through a combination of equity, shareholder and commercial loans. Our shareholder [The Abu Dhabi government]'s equity and loans are not subsidies under any applicable definition; they are the means by which the Abu Dhabi government has sensibly invested in a successful business model."

City's argument is also contrary to the position the club took in their 2020 appeal against Uefa charges in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, when they maintained that all sponsorship liabilities were met by the sponsors in question.

City formally announced on Friday that they are appealing against the guilty verdict. The club maintain that "a body of irrefutable evidence" exists that will prove the commission's findings to be untrue.

ThunderCougarFalconBird
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Man City, its ownership, management, and die hard "supporters" must be constantly freebasing light blue hopium. This is quite the combination of hilarious and sad.
Dre_00
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I recently subscribed to Swiss Ramble. Account has a long history of reporting on the business of football. An excerpt from his recent post.

Quote:

The Commission described City's strategy, "The club appreciated from the early days of ADUG's ownership that very significant funds would be required if the steps needed to realise Sheikh Mansour's ambitions were to be fulfilled."

As a result, the owners provided 1.3 bln of funding in the first ten years of their tenure via new capital or loans.

However, the Commission said that "this was not a sustainable model", so City needed to (very substantially) grow its commercial revenues, especially if it wanted to comply with financial fair play rules.

If we add the 831m of disguised equity funding to the reported figures, then City actually benefited from an amazing 2.1 bln of owner funding in that decade, i.e. more than 200m a year.

To place this amount into perspective, the next highest amounts of owner funding in England's top flight were Chelsea 367m, Brighton 311m and Leicester City 197m.

Put another way, City's actual 2.1 bln was more than the funding at every other Premier League club combined, which only added up to 1.7 bln.

While there can be sympathy for a club playing catch-up with the elite, it's a different story when that club aims to blow everyone else out of the water.

This notion that they weren't allowed to invest in their club is complete crap. They were. City owners were allowed to invest 1.3b into their club but they needed to be able to eventually balance that through commercial revenue. Not completely. But enough to satisfy the rules. They couldn't. So instead they created another 800m in fake sponsorship to balance the books bringing their actual total owner injected level to 2.1b. 8x over what the next club did.

So yeah, what they did was pretty horrible. They weren't honorably trying to establish a competitive league. They were trying to establish a league that only they dominated and broke 114 rules to get there.
Dre_00
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I love that a Google search was all it took to completely blow their "irrefutable evidence" out of the water.
Showstopper
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That guy is garbage; I'm not completely convinced he isn't a Goldbridge sock. They at least go out of their way to compliment each other, and he reaches a lot of conclusions that aren't really supported by the underlying information (also much like Goldbridge).

Edit: I may be defaming the innocent… I may be thinking of Swedish Rumble…. lol
Texaggie7nine
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Dre_00 said:

So yeah, what they did was pretty horrible




horrible!!!! so horrible!!! They spent their own money.

That entire article is just framing it to LOOK like City outspent everyone when it's just that they put more of their own money that wasn't revenue than the others. Overall they didn't outspend. Chelsea has spent more in the past 10 years. City is not some crazy outspender compared to the other top teams, they are right there with them, they just did far more with the money spent. Whether it's money from the owners pockets or from revenue, who cares, it's THEIR money.

If this was about "safety of the clubs from bankruptcy" and how unsafe it was ,then , like I said, the complaints wouldn't be "oh they cheated, they shouldn't have had those players". It would be "what they did was dangerous because if they sold the club then it might go bankrupt and they should be punished for violating rules that prevent that".

This is all sports tribalism of envious fans of other teams and outraged fans of red cartel teams that think no other teams should be allowed to outspend their historically glorious team.
7nine
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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Texaggie7nine said:

Dre_00 said:

So yeah, what they did was pretty horrible




horrible!!!! so horrible!!! They spent their own money.

That entire article is just framing it to LOOK like City outspent everyone when it's just that they put more of their own money that wasn't revenue than the others. Overall they didn't outspend. Chelsea has spent more in the past 10 years. City is not some crazy outspender compared to the other top teams, they are right there with them, they just did far more with the money spent. Whether it's money from the owners pockets or from revenue, who cares, it's THEIR money.

If this was about "safety of the clubs from bankruptcy" and how unsafe it was ,then , like I said, the complaints wouldn't be "oh they cheated, they shouldn't have had those players". It would be "what they did was dangerous because if they sold the club then it might go bankrupt and they should be punished for violating rules that prevent that".

This is all sports tribalism of envious fans of other teams and outraged fans of red cartel teams that think no other teams should be allowed to outspend their historically glorious team.

I quoted this whole post because at this point, this poster is either trolling or delusional.

"Red cartel"? "We were just spending our own money"? "We put the EPL on the map and you should be thanking us for our benevolence"?

 
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