General EPL Discussion/Housery Thread

590,577 Views | 3500 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by deadbq03
Showstopper
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Yeah, I don't know, but I saw this on Twitter, which appears to quote the opinion, and appears to allege the equivalent of perjury…


(Edit: she's a Sky Sports reporter, fwiw, so not a random).
Mathguy64
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Did they allege "red team bad"?

If they knowingly lied during the investigation, the FA may feel like they have to drop the hammer just to make the point.
Showstopper
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Like, I don't know whether this is a proceeding which would be subject to punishment by perjury, but over here it's certainly broader than just litigation.

I mean, if nothing else, we are getting uncomfortably close to fraud, assuming the analysis of the testimony is correct.
Mathguy64
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Oh I think it's pretty clear they crossed over into financial fraud. This wasn't just spending more money that the system allowed. They intentionally tried to hide it on paper and falsified financial documents.

As others have said, do that here and you go to jail.
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Dre_00
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wangus12 said:

Also I find the red cartel thing a bit ironic. Both Liverpool and Arsenal wandered the desert for 30 and 20 years between titles because City came in and spent more money than either could.

I watched Arsenal sell their best players year after year back in the late 2000s and 2010s to stay in line with financial regulations while they built the Emirates. Wenger was bargain bin shopping for youth players and still managed to stay in the Top 4 for 20 straight years while doing it


You ignore the storied history of Arsenal, Liverpool, and United. One of kinship and love, each ensuring that the other succeeds…helping one another through thick and thin.
Furlock Bones
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people on twitter are digging up all of the older posts where people pointed out stuff that is almost certainly a sham. it's not stopped one bit. this is not a "period of skirting rules". It's institutional cheating that's never stopped.
rebag00
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Dre_00 said:

wangus12 said:

Also I find the red cartel thing a bit ironic. Both Liverpool and Arsenal wandered the desert for 30 and 20 years between titles because City came in and spent more money than either could.

I watched Arsenal sell their best players year after year back in the late 2000s and 2010s to stay in line with financial regulations while they built the Emirates. Wenger was bargain bin shopping for youth players and still managed to stay in the Top 4 for 20 straight years while doing it


You ignore the storied history of Arsenal, Liverpool, and United. One of kinship and love, each ensuring that the other succeeds…helping one another through thick and thin.

Says the spuds supporter! C'mon, Mate - you're still nominally in the "Big Six" (as are City, at least for the time being)
Texaggie7nine
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No one is saying the Red cartel are all buddy buddy and want each other to succeed. They gladly support and push the league to pull up the ladder leaving just them on the top with no way for others to ascend.
7nine
deadbq03
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Texaggie7nine said:

If you want a good illustration of why it's the Red Cartel, all you have to do is look at who would have won the years City did. If City didn't win. United, Liverpool amd Arse. The financial rules guarantee their continued dominance with no hope of any contenders other than a random miracle run like Leicester but even then, the big teams would just buy away their big players.
I mentioned it before. There are plenty of legal ways an investor can dump money into a club and grow it.

Your response then was that none of the things I mentioned would buy KdB - but I ignored it because I had already made that exact point: the legal ways to grow aren't gonna happen overnight.

A real owner who's looking for ROI doesn't need it to happen overnight. They need it to grow organically and sustainably. And that's precisely why the rules exist. To prevent even good owners from getting themselves in trouble, because when clubs go into administration it's good for nobody


The crux of the issue is that City's ownership doesn't care about anything that a traditional ownership group cares about. They could dump money and demand immediate results because they care zero about financial ROI (and if you think I'm wrong, the Saudi league is doing this exact same thing).


The rules aren't holding clubs back. The same clubs ruled the roost well before these rules existed.

I'd argue that the old ownership model/philosophy in English football is what holds clubs back. When cable/satellite TV changed everything, most of these clubs changed nothing. It's like most completely ignored US sports because they were different, instead of learning from US sports business. The ones who thrived were the ones who could tap into a global fanbase instead of just being a local club.

You see this changing though. It's early days, but Leeds new Red Bull money might be effectively and sustainably growing that club (the same way they grew Leipzig legally and sustainably in Germany, taking a decade to get it to rise from the 5th tier).

I'm biased, but I'm fully convinced that in 10 years, Wrexham will be an EPL contender. Same story there, organic, legal growth. Dumping money into facilities and academy. Finding unique revenue streams, because at the end of the day, what both real owners and the league want is revenue.

I bring up those specific examples because there's a bit more similarity between them and City than other ownership groups. Red Bull and Rob/Ryan clearly have motives outside of club finances itself. If the club ROI wasn't great, they could still use reputation gains from the club to make an ROI elsewhere (very similar to UAE owners). Despite this similarity, two groups decided to play the long game and play by the rules, but one decided it was more powerful than God so it could do whatever the hell it wanted.
wangus12
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Yeah I'm gonna say the cheating is still going on

Texaggie7nine
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City ownership DID it the right way though. They built up all the facilities, they built up the community around the club. They built up the academy. They did exactly what they needed to do to grow the club into one of the largest and most sustainable in the world.

You say it can be done within the rules but no other club has done it. NC, Villa, Fulham are still languishing even though they have a bankroll far more capable than what they have done. You can lay out this Cinderella story of a club doing everything right and growing from a small club to a club the size big 6 type team, but it has never and will never happen under the current rules. But those in the big clubs are happy for it to stay that way.

You can say "they must still be cheating" but City is easily a top 3 revenue team in the EPL now with legit sponsorships, international fanbase and all.
7nine
Showstopper
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Sounds like City's owners may be de-certified as meeting the ownership test:

Showstopper
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A member of Parliament with Everton ties apparently calling for a criminal investigation.
Dre_00
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Texaggie7nine said:

No one is saying the Red cartel are all buddy buddy and want each other to succeed. They gladly support and push the league to pull up the ladder leaving just them on the top with no way for others to ascend.


Support and push are two wildly different things my friend. And if you use the term red cartel then you clearly don't mean support, you only mean push.

And that's why you along with some of your other City supporters sound like deluded whack jobs. Your conspiracy ignores anything that happened in the league pre 2008…probably because you don't know and weren't a fan then. And it also ignores the fact that 2/3 of the league had to agree to any FFP/PSR rule that was ever enacted. In case it's not apparent, 2/3 of 20 is not 3.

But I'm sure you have an excuse for that too. The red cartel probably paid the other 11 clubs off. I mean sounds like something your owners would do so I can understand how you'd get there. Or maybe they sent a guy to rough the other owners up a bit. I heard back in 2013, Daniel Levy woke up next to a severed horse's head.
Dre_00
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rebag00 said:

Dre_00 said:

wangus12 said:

Also I find the red cartel thing a bit ironic. Both Liverpool and Arsenal wandered the desert for 30 and 20 years between titles because City came in and spent more money than either could.

I watched Arsenal sell their best players year after year back in the late 2000s and 2010s to stay in line with financial regulations while they built the Emirates. Wenger was bargain bin shopping for youth players and still managed to stay in the Top 4 for 20 straight years while doing it


You ignore the storied history of Arsenal, Liverpool, and United. One of kinship and love, each ensuring that the other succeeds…helping one another through thick and thin.

Says the spuds supporter! C'mon, Mate - you're still nominally in the "Big Six" (as are City, at least for the time being)


Are you calling me a Spurs supporter? I've never been slandered like this in my life.

I'm a proud supporter of a big 6 club with disgusting billionaire owners who should be stripped of their ownership even if they haven't been charged with financial malfeasance. I don't see how that's relevant to the notion of a red cartel manipulating the league to the levels that have been implied.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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Texaggie7nine said:

City ownership DID it the right way though. They built up all the facilities, they built up the community around the club. They built up the academy. They did exactly what they needed to do to grow the club into one of the largest and most sustainable in the world.

You say it can be done within the rules but no other club has done it. NC, Villa, Fulham are still languishing even though they have a bankroll far more capable than what they have done. You can lay out this Cinderella story of a club doing everything right and growing from a small club to a club the size big 6 type team, but it has never and will never happen under the current rules. But those in the big clubs are happy for it to stay that way.

You can say "they must still be cheating" but City is easily a top 3 revenue team in the EPL now with legit sponsorships, international fanbase and all.

So the argument now is we cheated but we did such a good job that everyone should just look the other way?

The Dallas Cowboys would win every Super Bowl ever if they could just ignore that pesky salary cap.
Texaggie7nine
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No. Pushed is the right word. Ever heard of the G14 also known as the Elite Club Lobby? An elite club of Europe clubs that had only the Red Cartel as part of the EPL in it. The very same lobby that pushed for FFP type regulation in UEFA.

The same Red Cartel, plus Spurs then pushed for those rules in the EPL in opposition to Oil money coming in.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/jan/14/premier-league-split-financial-fair-play

Sure there are reasons for smaller clubs to support it. For those that have owners who aren't mega billionaires, they are content with their middle of the road status, and FFP type rules helps make sure that those clubs below them can't be bought out and easily jump over them. It helps them keep player salaries in check in their minds because they can say "hey we can't pay your player more because we are restricted by financial regulations".

Still, the fingerprints that are all over these types of regulations, europe wide, are from the elite clubs scared of new big money competition.
7nine
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

The Dallas Cowboys would win every Super Bowl ever if they could just ignore that pesky salary cap.

Terrible analogy. The salary cap is the same across the board. It would be like saying the Philly Eagles should have a much lower spending cap than the Cowboys because their team doesn't have near as high of revenue.
7nine
Showstopper
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Dre_00 said:

rebag00 said:

Dre_00 said:

wangus12 said:

Also I find the red cartel thing a bit ironic. Both Liverpool and Arsenal wandered the desert for 30 and 20 years between titles because City came in and spent more money than either could.

I watched Arsenal sell their best players year after year back in the late 2000s and 2010s to stay in line with financial regulations while they built the Emirates. Wenger was bargain bin shopping for youth players and still managed to stay in the Top 4 for 20 straight years while doing it


You ignore the storied history of Arsenal, Liverpool, and United. One of kinship and love, each ensuring that the other succeeds…helping one another through thick and thin.

Says the spuds supporter! C'mon, Mate - you're still nominally in the "Big Six" (as are City, at least for the time being)


Are you calling me a Spurs supporter? I've never been slandered like this in my life.

I'm a proud supporter of a big 6 club with disgusting billionaire owners who should be stripped of their ownership even if they haven't been charged with financial malfeasance. I don't see how that's relevant to the notion of a red cartel manipulating the league to the levels that have been implied.

I was specifically waiting for this. "To Dare Is To Do" that's what Dre is always saying. GGTH and all that.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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Texaggie7nine said:

Quote:

The Dallas Cowboys would win every Super Bowl ever if they could just ignore that pesky salary cap.

Terrible analogy. The salary cap is the same across the board. It would be like saying the Philly Eagles should have a much lower spending cap than the Cowboys because their team doesn't have near as high of revenue.

You get the point I was making but I'll spell it out for you: it's much easier to win if you don't play by the rules.
Showstopper
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Live look in as the Man City legal team crafts their airtight, surefire appellate defense devised by the famous barrister Shaggy, esq.
rebag00
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UK PM Burnham 'concerned' Man City's owners could sell club - ESPN

Get a load of this moron. Nothing like having the PM "concerned" for your billionaire sheik owner selling the club and taking his petro-state money elsewhere.

Also - Dre - my bad.
Mathguy64
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The real scare is he sells and the next owner is stuck with a club they can't afford. That why they instituted the spending rules in the first place. Too many owners were going under. Man City going under would be a disaster.
Dre_00
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Texaggie7nine said:

No. Pushed is the right word. Ever heard of the G14 also known as the Elite Club Lobby? An elite club of Europe clubs that had only the Red Cartel as part of the EPL in it. The very same lobby that pushed for FFP type regulation in UEFA.

The same Red Cartel, plus Spurs then pushed for those rules in the EPL in opposition to Oil money coming in.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/jan/14/premier-league-split-financial-fair-play

Sure there are reasons for smaller clubs to support it. For those that have owners who aren't mega billionaires, they are content with their middle of the road status, and FFP type rules helps make sure that those clubs below them can't be bought out and easily jump over them. It helps them keep player salaries in check in their minds because they can say "hey we can't pay your player more because we are restricted by financial regulations".

Still, the fingerprints that are all over these types of regulations, europe wide, are from the elite clubs scared of new big money competition.


Dre_00
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It's already happening. Leaning on the right guys to make this go away. Works out nicely for City that the current PM is the former mayor of Manchester.

And also, apology accepted. I shall fully recover from the trauma of being accused of being a Spurs supporter...actual Spurs supporters will likely not be so lucky.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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Dre_00 said:

Works out nicely for City that the current PM is the former mayor of Manchester.

Andy Burnham is an Everton supporter. For better or for worse.
AustinScubaAg
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Texaggie7nine said:

No. Pushed is the right word. Ever heard of the G14 also known as the Elite Club Lobby? An elite club of Europe clubs that had only the Red Cartel as part of the EPL in it. The very same lobby that pushed for FFP type regulation in UEFA.

The same Red Cartel, plus Spurs then pushed for those rules in the EPL in opposition to Oil money coming in.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/jan/14/premier-league-split-financial-fair-play

Sure there are reasons for smaller clubs to support it. For those that have owners who aren't mega billionaires, they are content with their middle of the road status, and FFP type rules helps make sure that those clubs below them can't be bought out and easily jump over them. It helps them keep player salaries in check in their minds because they can say "hey we can't pay your player more because we are restricted by financial regulations".

Still, the fingerprints that are all over these types of regulations, europe wide, are from the elite clubs scared of new big money competition.

But at the end of the day Man City voted in support of the regulations.

The funny thing is Man City very likely would have succeeded in building a very successful team. The only reason they did what they did is that wanted it to happen almost instantly. City put together a very good management team at identifying talent and what the squad needed but they had no patients.

PSR in both UEFA and EPL was put in place to teams from creating massive losses year over year funded by owner wealth tied to no football wealth. Owners had gone bankrupt destroying clubs in the process that relied on the owner to cover excess spending.
AustinScubaAg
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ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

Dre_00 said:

Works out nicely for City that the current PM is the former mayor of Manchester.

Andy Burnham is an Everton supporter. For better or for worse.

There is no sense having rules if friends in high places ensure that some teams can ignore them. If the PM steps in here to protect City. The EPL may not survive.

Dre_00
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Ironically, City were nearly victims of exactly that right before UAE bailed them out. They literally couldn't pay wages because their billionaire Thai owner couldn't fund them anymore. City were the poster boys for why FFP should be implemented and then overnight were like "yeah, never mind".
fightingfarmer09
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As a complete casual and a fan without a team I really care about. I would probably pick watching a Man City game over most of the other teams if I had an option because they play well and are exciting. This is just bad for everyone.

I don't know the ins and outs of all the rules if you don't want a salary floor and a salary cap shared universally I find it distasteful penalizing someone for investing money in their teams.

I get it, the rules are rules and there should be punishment. But it would be equally insane to give a nuclear death penalty to one of the most recognizable teams on the planet.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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AustinScubaAg said:

ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

Dre_00 said:

Works out nicely for City that the current PM is the former mayor of Manchester.

Andy Burnham is an Everton supporter. For better or for worse.

There is no sense having rules if friends in high places ensure that some teams can ignore them. If the PM steps in here to protect City. The EPL may not survive.

The league's credibility will be shot for sure.
Texaggie7nine
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It was the G14 teams (most expensive teams in europe) that pushed for the initial FFP style rules in UEFA. Sure they were just concerned about teams going bankrupt.

Then when Man U, Arsenal, and Liverpool spearheaded implementing those types of rules into the EPL, Man city voted against it. Along with Villa, Southhampton, Fulham, Swansea and Albanion. They have voted against the reinforcement of those style rules in 2024 as well.

The ONLY time they voted in favor was in 25 when the proposal was replacing PSR with SCR (squad cost ratio). Which would loosen regulations a little. Plus by 25 their revenue was far higher and among the highest of all clubs in the world and they probably had 0 reason to break any spending rules.

They never voted in FAVOR of the FFP/PSR rules they are accused of violating pre 2018.
7nine
Showstopper
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I doubt the Prime Minister actually ends up getting involved either way. That said, it was a clunky statement since I think his intention was to signal something closer to neutrality and a "let the process play out" kind of sentiment. His mistake was saying anything even a little supportive in this environment where people are emotional and looking for targets.

In all seriousness, I've tried to think what this is like, and I think it's bigger than Juventus and the Serie A scandal, which Juventus was already a dominant team long before the ref scandal. (Although… it sure feels like Michael Oliver gets a very disproportionate number of City games, I'm just saying… and he got a very generous fee for working a match in UAE a few years back… very sus, especially now…)

Really, the closest thing I can think of is SMU where the feeling is that the sole reason the team was quality was due to the cheating. And SMU's excuse was that everyone else in the SWC was cheating as well (which, in fairness, was probably true to varying degrees for teams competitive in the SWC at the time, including us unfortunately). But the scale dwarfs that; the SWC was basically what amounted to five figure salaries (in 80's money) and stuff like free cars. I mean, the City decision puts the figure at close to a billion pounds injected…
fightingfarmer09
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SMU got the death penalty because they were doing the exact same thing as Texas, Alabama, A&M, Nebraska and every other school. They just did it too well and too openly for their stature. So someone had to take the hit for NCAA to reset the system into the backrooms.
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

I mean, the City decision puts the figure at close to a billion pounds injected…





...... and still not more than Man U "legally" injected.
7nine
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