AustinAg2K said:

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After having this thing for five days, I've decided it's not a perfect system, but it is a game changer. The ability to play AAA games on a big screen or go mobile is awesome. I'm not sure what Nintendo's plans are for the future, but I could see them going with a strategy where they release a new version with better hardware every two years. You could do something like phones where the games are playable on multiple generations, but look better on the newest. A lot of people spend $200-$300 every year on their phone. I could see people doing the same for a device like this.

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I gotta say I totally disagree. That model would fail horribly. People buy consoles because they want something stable and not have to upgrade it all the time like a PC. Sure the PS4 pro is out and the Scorpio is coming out this year but thats after the original consoles have been out for 4 years. Every two years would have people up in arms, its just not a good system.

I think it still remains to be seen if this will really take off because of the portability aspect. Most reports I've read says it struggles on the full TV at even 900P. I really dont think the switch is a home console that can go portable, its a portable that can stream to a TV.... Its gonna miss out on a lot of AAA games because developers dont want to mess with it as under powered as it is. And mobile phones have really taken up a lot of the market when it comes to wanting an electronic device while traveling or killing time. A lot of people just have time to browse facebook or look at texags for 10 minutes before moving on to their next thing, rather than firing up a console for a short playthrough that might not accomplish anything.

All that being said, I decided im going to buy one down the road, when theres a bundle or some sort of a price discount. I still want to play nintendo's franchises but the line up for the switch is pretty weak this first year.

"Most reports I've read says it struggles on the full TV at even 900P"

I've ONLY played it on my 55" tv and it hasn't struggled a bit. Zelda looks amazing.

You must have some lucky console then because I've definitely had frame rate drops while docked and it's been mentioned in pretty much every review I've read.

From a pure TV console standpoint, the Switch is woefully underpowered, but the mobile aspect is a huge differentiator. It'll be interesting to see how devs move forward with the Switch. Switch exclusives can obviously use simpler art styles to cover up the performance gap as Zelda has shown (and even then with performance issues at 900p), but it's a whole different ballgame when it comes to third party ports that can't do that.

I've also had no issues playing on my tv. So maybe it's a tv issue and not a console issue.

The framerate dips aren't that bad, bigger issue is the flat out hangs I have at some points in the game. Overall I like this hardware better than the Xbox One or PS4, because I'm more likely to play if I don't have to play on the TV all the time.


And like it or not, the console market is changing. The PS4 Pro was released 3 years after the original, and we knew about it within 2 1/2 years, and rumors started even before that. They're trying to smooth the edges between console generations so that people don't feel like they're leaving a ton of stuff behind and so they don't have to rely on a smaller install base every time new hardware comes out.


If the Nintendo releases a Switch Slim without the dock (but still dockable if you want to buy one separately), cheaper build materials, and prices it at $200 they'll move more units. Do that in year 2, get console sales in the 15-20 million range by year 3, and then launch a Switch XL that bumps games up to full 1080p 60FPS at $350. Make the Switch Slim/Switch your baseline target with boosted performance on the XL, and rotate the XL down to the Switch baseline model 3 years down the road.

That gives you 6 years of development on a single platform baseline, but allows those that want to upgrade to upgrade, and doesn't screw over the early adopters. You also end up with a massive back catalog of games that you can start throwing into a games with gold type of service. Nintendo could eventually have their entire non-motion controlled back catalog on the system, and maybe even the motion controlled ones.

2017 Switch $300
2019 Switch Slim (no dock) - $200
2019 Switch price cut - $250
2020 Switch XL - $350
2023 Switch XL2 - $350 - begin making Switch XL exclusives.

I've noticed framerate slowdown but it's not nearly enough to be a problem. The game is absolutely beautiful, imo.

agfan2013 said:

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AustinAg2K said:

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After having this thing for five days, I've decided it's not a perfect system, but it is a game changer. The ability to play AAA games on a big screen or go mobile is awesome. I'm not sure what Nintendo's plans are for the future, but I could see them going with a strategy where they release a new version with better hardware every two years. You could do something like phones where the games are playable on multiple generations, but look better on the newest. A lot of people spend $200-$300 every year on their phone. I could see people doing the same for a device like this.

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I gotta say I totally disagree. That model would fail horribly. People buy consoles because they want something stable and not have to upgrade it all the time like a PC. Sure the PS4 pro is out and the Scorpio is coming out this year but thats after the original consoles have been out for 4 years. Every two years would have people up in arms, its just not a good system.

I think it still remains to be seen if this will really take off because of the portability aspect. Most reports I've read says it struggles on the full TV at even 900P. I really dont think the switch is a home console that can go portable, its a portable that can stream to a TV.... Its gonna miss out on a lot of AAA games because developers dont want to mess with it as under powered as it is. And mobile phones have really taken up a lot of the market when it comes to wanting an electronic device while traveling or killing time. A lot of people just have time to browse facebook or look at texags for 10 minutes before moving on to their next thing, rather than firing up a console for a short playthrough that might not accomplish anything.

All that being said, I decided im going to buy one down the road, when theres a bundle or some sort of a price discount. I still want to play nintendo's franchises but the line up for the switch is pretty weak this first year.

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There is a lot of potential with a Switch as it is trying to carve out a market that's not exactly like anything you describe.


One, no question Zelda is a HUGE first step. It showed that not only does Nintendo still have the "special sauce" but it also showed that its not afraid to go after more complex systems to appeal to more than just the kid crowd.

Two, you downplay the idea of having a home console that is both portable and can link up to a TV. Having a premium experience on a handheld on the go for travel and commutes and when getting home slap it back in a TV on your big screen is very cool.

Two and a half, from a family perspective this could be quite great. Think about it it. A kid is playing along on the TV...the annoying sibling comes in with friends and kicks the other kid off the TV, you just take it out and keep on playing.

Three, Indies. Nintendo has been trying to work with indie developers (Shovel Knight) to bring some indies to the consoles if it makes sense. Many indies would work very well on a Switch then add in the portability...you have a solid indie machine.

Four, split joycons...Now I don't know what will happen here, but there could be some value of developers trying to recreate the couch/local co-op for simple games using the two joy cons. If they releases Double Dragon...local co-op, Id be all for it. (Not to mention Mario Kart 8) Again, all in a portable package.

Five, my HOPE is that by Nintendo combining both the "handhelds" and the "home consoles" in the switch, the smaller developers can still bring interesting experiences to the console. (Like fire emblem).

In the end...as always...it comes down to the simple question "are there enough games on the system, and are they fun to play?" If the answer is yes, then its a winner...If the answer is no, then it fails.

Eh disagree. Sony and Microsoft are doing these half generation upgrades to keep up with PCs because they are trying to stay close to the top of the graphics/performance curve (or as close as they can for fixed hardware, PC elitists need not chime in here).

Nintendo has already made that clear that it's not a priority for them as this is the third console in a row that's been far underpowered compared to competition. Why bother stepping up the hardware marginally in a few years when it's still going to be far behind the others?

And I originally would have agreed with you on losing the dock to shave price, but someone made a good point awhile back on another thread that it's in the name. It needs to be able to "switch" right out of the box otherwise it's kinda pointless, so I don't think a switch slim model would sell well. Unless Nintendo totally abandons the 3DS at that point.....

Time will tell but I still don't think this will sell as well as Nintendo hopes. A "console" that can't play big triple A titles, especially multiplayer ones like battlefield or cod is not gonna move units here in the USA. Kids and teenagers make up a large portion of the market and despite that they probably shouldn't, there's a lot of 14 year olds that just want to play CoD or something similar with their friends. Can't do that on the switch.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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I've noticed framerate slowdown but it's not nearly enough to be a problem. The game is absolutely beautiful, imo.

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Agreed it's a gorgeous game with clever use of art style to compensate for the performance of the console. The issue will be when trying to port their party titles from the PS4 and XB1 to the Switch where you can't use the art style to offset the performance. Having to run those games at 720 on the TV will be very noticeable.

agfan2013 said:

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Eh disagree. Sony and Microsoft are doing these half generation upgrades to keep up with PCs because they are trying to stay close to the top of the graphics/performance curve (or as close as they can for fixed hardware, PC elitists need not chime in here).

Nintendo has already made that clear that it's not a priority for them as this is the third console in a row that's been far underpowered compared to competition. Why bother stepping up the hardware marginally in a few years when it's still going to be far behind the others?

And I originally would have agreed with you on losing the dock to shave price, but someone made a good point awhile back on another thread that it's in the name. It needs to be able to "switch" right out of the box otherwise it's kinda pointless, so I don't think a switch slim model would sell well. Unless Nintendo totally absorbs the 3DS at that point.....

Time will tell but I still don't think this will sell as well as Nintendo hopes. A "console" that can't play big triple A titles, especially multiplayer ones like battlefield or cod is not gonna move units here in the USA. Kids and teenagers make up a large portion of the market and despite that they probably shouldn't, there's a lot of 14 year olds that just want to play CoD or something similar with their friends. Can't do that on the switch.

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You don't buy a Nintendo console for the graphics and the AAA titles it supports, you buy a Nintendo console for their first-party games. You buy it for Mario, Zelda, Smash, etc.

A lot of people have multiple consoles. Even if a big AAA title came out on the Switch, I would buy it off of Steam because my computer will be able to run it better than the Switch could ever dream of. But that's also not why I bought the Switch so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Well let's just agree to disagree, I'm sticking to my guns that I don't think the switch sells more than 25 million in its lifetime or where the XB1 is roughly at right now. I realize if it gets close to that number like 20-25 that it's not a failure at that point, but I do think Nintendo is hoping to sell quite a bit more than that. If I'm wrong feel free to call me out, I'll eat my crow if the time comes due.

I probably am discounting the portability more than I should. I just think smart phones have captured a lot of that market share. I don't see the portability as a daily benefit, sure you can take it on an airplane trip, long car ride, or to the bathroom occasionally....haha. But on an everyday basis I don't think it's a huge deal. This again hinges on how much longer they support and make games for the 3DS.

Anyways, I really like having these debates (we are on a discussion board after all) with you guys and hearing the different perspectives. And y'all that already have the system enjoy it, I will most likely get one down the road too.

The 3DS had 3D in its name, and yet.... 2DS. Nintendo is already running their console on a 2 year old mobile graphics chip, if they wait 6 years to update their console they're going to be 10-15 years (at least) behind what Playstation and Xbox are running and may not be able to even get some indies on their platform. Not to mention there are going to be 4K HDR TVs all over the place and the Switch from my recollection only supports HDMI 1.4 (i.e. no HDR).

The 3DS played no third party AAA titles and still sold extremely well (relative to many other Nintendo systems), because of lower development costs for developers (the bet was small with potentially huge payoffs), and Nintendo made a lot of first party games.

People focus on the portable AAA Nintendo games on the Switch, but it also has the benefit of not having a split ecosystem (theoretically) and could potentially get the output of the Wii U and 3DS combined. Nintendo and their collaborators have some serious console movers in their arsenal between their handheld and console products, and now they won't have to make two separate versions of some of those games.

Between 2012 and 2015 Nintendo platforms (Wii U and 3DS only) had 11 games with a metacritic of 90 or above (more than Xbox One, 6 fewer than PS4, but 3 of those were PS3 ports and 5 of them would be capable of running on the Switch, but did not get ported to Wii U/3DS due to power restrictions). They had 195 games/DLC that were rated 75 or higher on Metacritic, Xbox One had 215.


As for the portability feature, its not just a take it to the bathroom/take it on a plane/car ride. It's "My wife/girlfriend is watching something dumb on the TV and will throw a **** fit if I change it, but I can still play Zelda/Mario/Skyrim/Telltale games etc."

hph6203 said:

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People focus on the portable AAA Nintendo games on the Switch, but it also has the benefit of not having a split ecosystem (theoretically) and could potentially get the output of the Wii U and 3DS combined. Nintendo and their collaborators have some serious console movers in their arsenal between their handheld and console products, and now they won't have to make two separate versions of some of those games.

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And this is a big factor, if they completely shut off support for the 3DS and this becomes both their primary console and handheld device, my guess of less than 25 million units sold will be dead wrong.

Quote:

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It's "My wife/girlfriend is watching something dumb on the TV and will throw a **** fit if I change it, but I can still play Zelda/Mario/Skyrim/Telltale games etc."

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Dont be so whipped???


But seriously, I'd bet most households these days have more than 1 TV. In your case plus the guy who mentioned one kid kicking another off the TV, there will likely be another TV in the house that the system can be set up on in the first place. Most houses I know have several TVs in them, its not like this has to be on your living room TV (and isnt likely to be as it's not designed as a home entertainment system that can play blu rays or dvds like the XB1 or PS4 can. another disadvantage it has). I just googled it and the national average is 2.93 TVs per household.

I think yall are overestimating its usefulness in portability around your own house. If people get value out of the portability, its going to be outside the home. Which brings me back to how often are you on an airplane, long car ride or similar? I saw one poster talk about riding a train into the city, but I'd wager more americans than not still commute in their own vehicles to work/school so there isnt a big percentage playing it in portable mode on a daily basis due to long travel.

Given the choice of playing in a bedroom/second living room by myself on a second TV or lounging on the couch next to my girlfriend, I choose the latter. I'm telling you how I, and a pretty good percentage of people on podcasts I listen to use the device. I've played more Zelda in portable mode than on the TV.


As for the demise of the 3DS, they're not going to complete shutoff the pipe, but I'd bet they turn down the flow of games. They've already restructured their in-house development to merge the teams under one "roof". They're going to err on the side of development for the Switch over 3DS, continue to make games for 3DS until they determine if they're going to release an all-new portable or double down on the Switch by releasing the "Slim" model I mentioned.

https://www.cnet.com/news/nintendo-to-combine-handheld-console-divisions-report/

hph6203 said:

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Given the choice of playing in a bedroom/second living room by myself on a second TV or lounging on the couch next to my girlfriend, I choose the latter. I'm telling you how I, and a pretty good percentage of people on podcasts I listen to use the device. I've played more Zelda in portable mode than on the TV.

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Same here. I've actually been taking it out of the dock to go lay in bed to play before I go to sleep just about every night since the TV I have it hooked up to isn't in my bedroom.

Well I just dont think a majority of the market is thinking like the two of yall. The WiiU could play games on its screen tablet while you sat on the couch and someone else watched TV and that was a big feature they marketed with it. It didnt sell very well and wasnt successful, that tells me the market wasnt interested in that feature.

You're taking a plethora of factors that contributed to the Wii U's failure and boiling it down to one individual feature that, in general, was praised but underutilized and a lesser implementation than the one available on the Switch. The Wii U's remote play was not a required feature to be implemented by developers, was streamed to a 480p screen, and required line of sight with the console to function. In other words if you wanted to start a gaming session in the living room and then move into the bedroom to play just before sleep you couldn't unless you lived in a studio apartment.


Also, all I'm saying is that the portability is only one aspect that makes the system appealing for people.


Nintendo's opportunities are mostly going to come from indie developers, ports/remasters from old consoles (3DS, Gamecube and Wii U where appropriate), how robust they make the virtual console when it's implemented, and the conglomeration of their portable and home console production. All of those things are then emphasized by the fact that you can play them anywhere and anyway you want (pretty much).

What defines an AAA title if BoTW is not considered AAA?

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Well let's just agree to disagree, I'm sticking to my guns that I don't think the switch sells more than 25 million in its lifetime or where the XB1 is roughly at right now.

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Have you kept up with the news stories? This was Nintendo's best launch in its history, even over the Wii. And it has one of the best reviewed games of all time at launch, as well as a highly anticipated Mario game already confirmed.

What makes you think sales are going to slow down that drastically in the next few months?

hph6203 said:

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You're taking a plethora of factors that contributed to the Wii U's failure and boiling it down to one individual feature that, in general, was praised but underutilized and a lesser implementation than the one available on the Switch.

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Not at all, the Wiiu failed for a lot of reasons, let's see why and compare to the switch (points taken from several online articles, just google "why the wiiu failed).

- Underpowered. Yep, new console still is.

- overpriced for what it is. Yep you can buy a PS4 or an Xbox1 with a game for cheaper.

-lack of third party support. Likely still a yes, several studios have said they still won't develop for it. (Although it's nice Bethesda is going to do a game or two, that will help)

-weird/bad controller tablet. Finally not a repeat, The switch is much nicer than the wiiu.

-not enough 1st party support. Again, likely not a repeat. Looks like Nintendo will actually produce some good games for this system. I don't know if this is enough to carry it though.

-bad online support/infrastructure. Remains to be seen. Now they are charging for it so you'd think the service will be better, but then they go and announce voice chat will be through a separate app on smart phones...


I guess at the end of the day, I just see this is as a portable wiiu. And I don't think the portability will have a huge factor in its sales as there are lots of other options for people when they need to kill time with an electronic device, especially if it's for a shorter time. To summarize up all my posts I've made on this thread, that's why. Maybe I'm totally off base, maybe I'm not...

Agfan,
My bet (if they were smart), is that they are planning to phase the 3ds out. If they release a 4ds, then it is a completely different ballgame. (If a 4ds is essentially a Switch without the doc, then that would be okay...so long as the games can be shared).

If Nintendo does consolidate all development to the switch (and continue to bring some of those 3ds/Ds experiences to the switch)...while still being able to deliver on AAA (Zelda, Mario...few others), then I do think they have a winner on their hands.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Quote:

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Well let's just agree to disagree, I'm sticking to my guns that I don't think the switch sells more than 25 million in its lifetime or where the XB1 is roughly at right now.

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Have you kept up with the news stories? It's was Nintendo's best launch in its history, even over the Wii. And it has one of the best reviewed games of all time at launch, as well as a highly anticipated Mario game already confirmed.

What makes you think sales are going to slow down that drastically in the next few months?

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See my above post, plus one game can't carry a system. After Mario kart which is just a remaster, there isn't anything until splatoon 2 (also mostly a remaster) and Mario odyssey later in the fall.

Tex117 said:

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If Nintendo does consolidate all development to the switch (and continue to bring some of those 3ds/Ds experiences to the switch)...while still being able to deliver on AAA (Zelda, Mario...few others), then I do think they have a winner on their hands.

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Agreed

Has anyone seen a cable for the switch so you don't have to travel with the dock? Ie, going on travel and they have a tv with HDMI inputs and I'd like to take the switch for mobile & home gaming, but don't want to take the dock. Just want a cable.

Can you use a simple USB-C to HDMI cable?

Nope. Not sure if that's something that can be added via firmware but can't do that now. Trying to force people to get another $90 dock I guess. Kind of a crappy move.

QBCade said:

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Has anyone seen a cable for the switch so you don't have to travel with the dock? Ie, going on travel and they have a tv with HDMI inputs and I'd like to take the switch for mobile & home gaming, but don't want to take the dock. Just want a cable.

Can you use a simple USB-C to HDMI cable?

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No, Nintendo's USB-C stuff is proprietary. No ordinary USB-C to HDMI will work. You have to use the dock. I'm sure there will be third party accessories like this in the future but too early right now as typical with console launches.

Well, come to think of it, the USB-C port is being used for both AC power and A/V data, so it's probably due to that.

Could a console device pull enough power from a tv via USB-C?

I'd be surprised if a TV would supply anywhere near enough power. Many barely supply enough for a streaming stick.

That's what I figured, but thought I'd ask. I'm betting that they have some special logic on that little logic board in the dock.

As much as I like the 3DS, Nintendo would probably kill it. They've got a good system going on now that the Wii is gone. You can get a 2DS for under $100, good budget system to get into the Nintendo universe. More hardcore handheld is the 3DS for $200, then the Switch for $300. Good move would be to slowly phase out the DS platform for 2-3 years. Then we'll see a more powerful Switch with better design. The current Switch will be budget console. I'm hoping they go the way Xbox is going where your games last rather than re-purchasing them.

From looking at the latest Pokemon Sun and Moon, you can tell the 3DS is showing its age because they got rid of the 3D the 3DS is known for.

It would be nice if they kept making the small pocket handhelds because of the mobility and battery life but with the phone games, the 3DS may be the last of its kind.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Well, come to think of it, the USB-C port is being used for both AC power and A/V data, so it's probably due to that.

Could a console device pull enough power from a tv via USB-C?

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No, they'll have to make some special USB-C dongle with an HDMI port and USB-C port.

agfan2013 said:

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- overpriced for what it is. Yep you can buy a PS4 or an Xbox1 with a game for cheaper.

-lack of third party support. Likely still a yes, several studios have said they still won't develop for it. (Although it's nice Bethesda is going to do a game or two, that will help)

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PS4 and Xbox1 aren't portable, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison. Ultimately, the market is the only thing that will determine if the Switch is overpriced. Since retailers across the world are sold out, I'd say it's more likely under priced at this point. It's possible that a year from now, this thing is easily available everywhere at which time they can always lower their price. Right now, though, people are paying $300 + the game price, so it's hard to argue it's overpriced.

As for lack of third party support, most of the interviews I've seen with third party developers say their intrigued. If it sells well, they will develop games for it simply because there will be a lot of money lost by not doing so.

I think the comments about mobile devices stealing away players time is accurate, and the Switch is a response to that more than Sony or Microsoft. We are hitting a point of diminishing returns for graphics and processing power. Most people can't tell the difference between 4K and 1080P. A lot can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps. I don't think the new XBox and PS4 will sell that well because they aren't huge steps above existing systems. New buyers may consider them, but I doubt most existing owners will consider replacing their existing system.

Being able to switch from TV to mobile is a differentiator. Perhaps it's too early, but at some point in the next couple of years you're going to start seeing phones/tablets that can be hooked up to TVs to play games. There really aren't any AAA games in the mobile space, yet, but its coming, too. Nintendo is getting out ahead of that.

Also, count me in the group that likes to play in mobile mode on the couch while watching TV.

I don't think you're ever going to see AAA games developed for mobile. The marketplace is flush with so many FTP and $1-2 options that they can't succeed, and the input is not appropriate for that kind of gaming.


As for overpriced or underpriced, for most people it's probably overpriced compared to the alternatives, but as of today and for the next several months the system is not being sold to most people. It's being sold to the most interested 3-5 million people and then you hit the holiday season, where cash flows to make the kiddos happy. Then next winter/spring hits and you have room to drop the price while maintaining a reasonable profit margin. This is the lifecycle of every console. Initial price high, 12-24 months out the price drops, hardware features are stripped to reduce build costs, the price drops again, and then a replacement is released.

They are basically maximizing revenue to recoup R&D as fast as possible.

The thing that sucks owning a Switch right now is the good cases are sold out and going for double on eBay and the good glass screen protectors don't come out till next week.

No Virtual Console but NeoGeo games have been added to the shop. Most notably Metal Slug 3