Redstone said:

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So…the chromosomes, the presence or absence of which determines sex (and its synonym, gender) don't change in the slightest during a "transition?"

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Have you looked through this thread?

Your argument rests on the perception of one problematic figure? This isn't how research and theories work. There's a wide body of literature on the differences between sex and gender. They aren't synonymous. Nor can human experience be summed up simply in our chromosomes.

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Your argument rests on the perception of one problematic figure?

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Gender as a malleable "social construct" came from where, given great currency via "academic validation" …. well, check it out.

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This isn't how research and theories work. There's a wide body of literature on the differences between sex and gender.

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Yes, of course - since 1955 in the context of this discussion here. And how'd that work out for Dr. Money's patients? Check it out.

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Nor can human experience be summed up simply in our chromosomes.

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Not the argument at all. A Catholic understanding of the human person wouldn't make such an argument either.

Redstone said:

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Your argument rests on the perception of one problematic figure?

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Gender as a malleable "social construct" came from where, given great currency via "academic validation" …. well, check it out.

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This isn't how research and theories work. There's a wide body of literature on the differences between sex and gender.

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Yes, of course - since 1955 in the context of this discussion here. And how'd that work out for Dr. Money's patients? Check it out.

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Nor can human experience be summed up simply in our chromosomes.

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Not the argument at all. A Catholic understanding of the human person wouldn't make such an argument either.

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Again, whether an early theorist was a bad person or not has zero bearing on the validity or modern development of the theory. That's not how science and research operate. And if that's honestly your contention, I've got some bad news about the lives of important figures in all kinds of fields.

And yes, your argument is, "well they have a Y chromosome so they are male and that's that."

Nvm

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Again, whether an early theorist was a bad person or not has zero bearing on the validity or modern development of the theory.

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Read about his many abuses, and the long cover ups. Read the article from the two "affirming" doctors. Make the extremely easy to make and very direct connection.

This all concerns the mental and physical health of children and adolescents - yes, including sterilization - and so it is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT from researchers acting badly yet with valid work.

Why? Because, as with Freud (another total fraud and liar) the work is INEXTRICABLY BOUND with their personal agendas.

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And yes, your argument is, "well they have a Y chromosome so they are male and that's that.

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Physically. Males have 1 Y chromosome and 1 X chromosome; females have 2 X chromosomes.
You deny this?

And, of course, this is not the entirety of the human person. I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Redstone said:

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Again, whether an early theorist was a bad person or not has zero bearing on the validity or modern development of the theory.

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Read about his many abuses, and the long cover ups. Read the article from the two "affirming" doctors. Make the extremely easy to make and very direct connection.

This all concerns the mental and physical health of children and adolescents - yes, including sterilization - and so it is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT from researchers acting badly yet with valid work.

Why? Because, as with Freud (another total fraud and liar) the work is INEXTRICABLY BOUND with their personal agendas.

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And yes, your argument is, "well they have a Y chromosome so they are male and that's that.

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Physically. Males have 1 Y chromosome and 1 X chromosome; females have 2 X chromosomes.
You deny this?

And, of course, this is not the entirety of the human person. I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

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I think we're done. You don't get it. A field of study is not defined by the abuses of one person. By your definition the entire field of psychology is an excuse to torture and abuse dogs, since that's what Pavlov did.

No, the work is not bound by the personal agenda of one person decades ago. That's how a child thinks.

As for your second "argument," thank you for proving my point. Hopefully you will approach transgender people from their perspective instead of your own weak position.

Glad to be done with the interaction, because you don't get it.

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A field of study is not defined by the abuses of one person.

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Agree.

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By your definition the entire field of psychology is an excuse to torture and abuse dogs, since that's what Pavlov did.

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Wrong.

I associate Freud with Money, and against other fields of scientific inquiry, BECAUSE THE FIELDS ARE VALID. Meaning, replicable (well, in psychology there is a very major replication crisis, look it up) and LACKING IN PERSONAL AGENDA. Freud perused money and sex, very successfully. His ENTIRE opus was based on this pursuit, as Frederick Crews has definitively proven, and the "field" is in smoldering ruins.

As for Money? Well, read up. Children and adolescents are being sterilized and harmed greatly. Read the piece by two extremely prominent doctors in this field.

The future of this "field" is Freud.

As for my "position," we are embodied spirits. Our bodies tell us many important things. It was gifted by the Creator. Do not desecrate it.

Redstone said:

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Now, let me be more specific.

Beginning on Page 7 of this thread, there is advocacy for puberty blockers and hormone "therapy."

For whom?
CHILDREN.

Sterilizing?
READ ABOUT IT.
(The answer is quite often, yes.)

Such "therapy" is Satanic, and I mean that literally.

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The harm people like you cause is incalculable.

Redstone said:

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It is not only wrong to mutilate and sterilize children, it is demonic. It is to participate in the worldly power of fallen angels.

I hope anyone who has ever done so repents, immediately.

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Your perspective harms people. It results in suicide or a lifetime of severe mental health crises. You don't care about the people, you care about your religion. Bye.

Sapper Redux said:

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LIB said:

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God created an urge in me to have sex with as many hot looking women as possible. He also gave me an urge for self preservation. As a result of these two god-given urges, I don't let my wife know about all the women I'm sleeping around with.
#madethisway

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I get so sick of these pathetic equivalencies. Sit down and talk to a transgendered or queer person about what they feel and how little self respect or self esteem many of them have because of attitudes like this.

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You mean like the 60 year old woman that works next to me. She said she knew she was queer (her word) in the eighth grade.

I like her a lot. Great personality! She has told me about many of the battles she faced growing up. She says she was lucky because her mom accepted her after coming out where so many others she knows were not accepted by family. I've got a small glimpse of what she has been through.

I'm a selfish liar with many evil things in my past. I don't ask others to accept my lies or my selfishness. I do ask Christ to forgive them and then, with His help, I try to get better. I'll never get where I need to be. At least not in this lifetime. That's my battle, especially the selfish part. Her battle is much tougher than mine but it's still a battle and should not be handled with surrender to anyone but Christ.

PS... since you believe I presented a false equivalency, what would be an example of an equivalency that wasn't false?

Sapper Redux said:

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Redstone said:

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Is "affirmation" helping those who suffer?

Not really, according to those once extremely-affirming doctors. And according to the many testimonies of regret among the "transitioned," which can be referenced in my earlier posts here.

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Here's a novel concept: different people are going to need different things to help them because they are different. All I see from conservatives is a desire to shove LGBTQ people back into the closet and treat them as subhuman while saying they care.

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You should try looking around with your eyes open. You'll get an entirely new perspective.

My eyes have been open for years. I catch the brunt of the above "conservative" opinion regularly.

The reality is people preaching that mantra are not conservative, they're liberal authoritarians by action and creed, they're simply not preaching the secular liberalism of the modern party using the term.

I'm glad to see this post got back on the anti-trans/all trans people are mentally ill bandwagon quickly. Christians defending their bloody and wrathful God is always amusing, but never lasts long...... it's easy when everyone else just gets deemed evil.

Ag_of_08 said:

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My eyes have been open for years. I catch the brunt of the above "conservative" opinion regularly.

The reality is people preaching that mantra are not conservative, they're liberal authoritarians by action and creed, they're simply not preaching the secular liberalism of the modern party using the term.

I'm glad to see this post got back on the anti-trans/all trans people are mentally ill bandwagon quickly. Christians defending their bloody and wrathful God is always amusing, but never lasts long...... it's easy when everyone else just gets deemed evil.

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I thought I was talking to Sapper. Huh?

You have been, I interjected in a discussion on a public forum.

So Jazz, who doesn't regret transition at all, had complications from a very complex surgery. And these doctors objection to puberty blockers is really centered on the lack of available skin for these complex procedures and the possible loss of the ability to orgasm? Do I have the gist of it?

And Jazz was not an abused child, and is still a activist for trans rights. Seems odd that you're so obsessed with the orgasms of teenagers though. If I was told that I could have GRS as a teen, but would never have an orgasm, I'd have done it in a heartbeat. Why? Because gender dysphoria is hell, and you can't possibly comprehend just how torturous it is.

But these decisions are to be made between patient/guardian & doctor. Legislatures should not be involved.

These doctors aren't denying that trans kids exist, but seem to urge caution for reasons centered more on making these surgeries more effective, and to not run the risk of losing the ability to orgasm.

Redstone said:

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1). A child.

2). "complications from a very complex surgery"

All of my characterizations are fully accurate, including the word abuse.

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No, not remotely accurate. They're merely your opinions which are rooted in your ignorance on the topic.

You mischaracterize Jazz's situation and the reasons these doctors provide, just as you hold up studies with fatally flawed methodologies as if they're relevant. And you continue to push your junk science even after these fatal flaws were pointed out. Why?...

You aren't an honest person, at least with regards to this discussion.

Of course HRT will sterilize. I've never said otherwise. And no, you're being testerical again. This isn't evil.

And I've already pointed out the problems with the studies you love to cite. You don't care about truth though, so you continue with your dishonesty.

PacifistAg said:

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testerical

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Is this a portmanteau of testicle and hysterical?

Edit: wow, I learned another word.

Lol yes. Given how often men accuse women of being hysterical, someone came up with this in response for when men are doing so.

Pacifist, I have a question if you don't mind. Reading through the thread, I noticed the discussion regarding the choice between taking your life vs transitioning. Do you believe Paul's "thorn in the flesh" is relevant to this discussion? There was something in his life that evidently caused him some level of problem that he wanted removed or changed. God declined stating that His grace was sufficient and that His strength was made perfect in Paul's weakness. I don't intend to be callous, but it seems an approach that states I must transition or I will kill myself is stating that God's grace is not sufficient. It seems to state the thorn must be removed or I am done. Again, I hope this doesn't come off as belittling your decisions, and I appreciate your willingness to engage on this difficult and personal subject.

When I say that, what I mean is that I knew the reality of my situation. My wife knew the reality of the situation. The pain was simply unbearable, and I mean that literally. I could no longer bear it. People don't grasp just how torturous gender dysphoria is. People don't understand the depth of pain that drives one to ask their family to sit with them as they slowly pass away, simply because I didn't want to die alone. In those moments, I realized death was inevitable. But I wouldn't say my transition was a declaration that God's grace is insufficient. In fact, quite the opposite. God's grace allowed a way for me to be the woman He created me to be. The "thorn in my flesh" was pretending to be someone I was not. God's grace took that thorn away, and now my faith is so much deeper and richer. My relationship with Him is so much stronger. I had a "condition" that created suicidal depression. I pursued a course that would "treat" that "condition", and now I'm so much more able to focus on Him and His goodness.

what do you pray for?