http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Syrio_dead/

Bill's theories hold water for me.

Espeically the Syrio one, but I still think he is head.

Did anyone also note; that Robert's first kill was Sam's brother?

I was watching some of the re-run episodes on HBO this weekend and Robert, is talking to Jamie, and Ser Barristan and he says "my first was some fool Tarley boy..." So Robert killed Sam's older brother... I think this might also be of some importance but don't know how yet.

According to awoiaf. Samwell was born in 283AL (After Aegon's Landing). Robert's Rebellion was 282-283AL. That is why Sam is roughly Jon's age. I cant remember the deats on Sam leaving his home, if he made mention of an older brother....

According to this Sam was the firstborn (not just the oldest). http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Randyll_Tarly

So it may have been an uncle or a nephew.





[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 2/6/2012 12:14p).]

I look at the Syrio complex as GRRM just not knowing what to do with the character.

If he can't write him back into the story than it's easy to say hey he fought the Kingsguard with a stick and died what did you expect.

Or if he does want to insert him back into the story than he got beat up and thrown in prison or escaped.

My guess is the latter and a convenient way to get Arya back to King's Landing to free the former First Sword as a mission.

Guess so. Could have also said tyrell boy... I might look it up.

Honestly I am hoping Martin doesn't bring Syrio back, as cool as he was. Already pushing the limits on "He's Dead! Ok, maybe not...." with Jon Snow likely already likely to be next. At some point you start going "maybe that wasn't really Ned getting his head cut off!"

So I struggle with whether or not I want the Old Gods to come out on top. Im a big believer that knowledge is power, which is why the greatest power resides in Varys and Baelish. But the trees see everything (maybe just everything in the north). But how that translates to geopolitical power, idk. Reading TWOW prologue/sample it seems Bran is speaking to Theon.

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I look at the Syrio complex as GRRM just not knowing what to do with the character.

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Fans have made Syrio's fate complex, not GRRM. The chapter was an Arya POV chapter. Syrio told her to run, and she did. She never saw what happened to him. Syrio was not a POV character. Ser Meryn Trant was not a POV character either. Arya has not come into contact with any other character who could possibly know what happened to him. But we do know that Syrio's wooden practice sword was broken, that Ser Meryn was wearing armor and that Ser Meryn survived the fight. GRRM knew exactly what to do with the character -- Syrio sacrificed himself so that Arya could escape. There's the answer, just not the answer that fans want to accept.

[This message has been edited by G Martin 87 (edited 2/7/2012 5:57a).]

Going back a few posts but I think those that think Tyrion is a Targaryan are wrong. Tywin hated him because he was a dwarf and not like his brother. He hated him because his wife died giving birth to him. Tyrion has one green eye and one black eye, neither eye is purple. He has blond hair like the Lannisters. When Tywin sent him to King's Landing to be The Hand in his place, he told him it was because "You're my son."

The eyes and hair don't really matter, there were many Targaryens that did not have the silver hair and purple eyes.

There are 4 main reasons I think he is a Targ. First, he is a major POV character and clearly there is mystery behind him and a point to that in Martin's style. It would seem too easy for him simply to be a Lannister. Second, he dreams of dragons and is obsessed with them. Third, several times it is repeated how his father treated him as a ******* and not as his own son. He greatly resented him. It just seems odd that Tywin would be so loving toward his other 2 children and so hateful to Tyrion even though he was a dwarf and his wife died in childbirth. Finally, there has to be a reason why Selmy went into such detail recalling how Aerys lusted after Joanna and he took liberties during the bedding for her at Tywin's wedding. He was the "Mad King" and to think he just never acted on those feelings for Joanna would seem odd.

I also found it interesting that even after Tyrion excelled as Hand when his father sent him to do so he never got his father's love or affection. Tywin treated him as a pawn, never as a son.

I think the OP is right that Tyrion is clearly a Lannister, and I think the hatred showed by Tywin proves it. The Lannisters seem to favor strength and power over almost anything else. Tyrion being a dwarf diminished both of those for Tywin and makes him seem as though he has faults if he is the father of a dwarf. Throw in that Tywin greatly loved his wife and the fact that she died birthing Tyrion and there is your hate. Tywin blames Tyrion for her death and on top of that he shows weakness for the Lannisters.

Besides, Tyrion's own aunt (I forget her name) tells Jaime that Tywin would not talk to her for months b/c she told Tywin that Tyrion is his "true son" because he is the child most like Tywin in personality and wits.

I don't see how the hatred proves anything. He would hate him more if he was a Targ ******* that he was too proud to admit was not his son but was forced to raise him. Admitting Tyrion was the product of Aerys and his wife would be unthinkable. He also continually tries to get Tyrion killed at every opportunity. Would he hate him that much for being a dwarf and his wife dying in childbirth? Maybe, but it does seem excessive.

The comment by the aunt was interesting as well but I don't know that it means much. I also don't know that it would matter much if he is a Targ or not, Tyrion can no more be King than Littlefinger or Varys as the people would never accept him. He could be Lord of Casterly Rock though or certainly serve on the Small Council. One thing is sure, Martin is a genius at keeping people guessing. It makes you look at everything and question it.

Just because R+L=J doesn't mean Tyrion is a Targ. There is a great deal of probability that this is an example of GRRM screwing with the fans.

There is one other piece of evidence that makes me think Tyrion is a Targ and the 3rd Dragon Rider. "Only death can pay for life."

Dany's mother died in childbirth
Jon's mother died in childbirth (assuming R+L=J)
Tyrion's mother died in childbirth

I think they are the 3 heads of the Dragon and the 3 Dragon riders.

I never made that connection. Might have some legs to it.


Blood of the dragon kills the mother. Dragon sh-t does kill normal humans...a la Black Eye's horn.

So I just rewatched the "Syrio death scene." Arya is near the stairwell when the skirmish starts, you hear a distinct sound of a metal sword hitting the ground. Then you hear screaming. Then you hear two slashes and more screaming...



Also is R+L=J is true, and Jon is a skinchanger, Jon could control a dragon....like a boss.

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 2/8/2012 1:28a).]

Are we still tagging spoilers on this thread? If so...

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If Jon truly dies, I bet he wargs into Ghost. The prologue of ADWD establishes how warging "works."

The thread title says this is a spoiler thread so no need to worry about it, every post basically has a spoiler.

I do think a dragon will be "warged", the only question is by who. Bran is actually the strongest skinchanger. He is a greenseer and he has warged people with Hodor. I have little doubt he could warg a dragon if he wished. Arya is second in power (she is even able to warg Nymeria from Bravos). Jon also of course is a skinchanger but hasn't really developed it much other than with Ghost. One thing I thought was odd btw is how Ned was not a skinchanger yet he has at least 3 children that are (we don't know about Rickon really as he may warg Sh****dog and Sansa has not shown any abilities.

As for Jon the 2 most likely ways he comes back are with Melisandre magic or by warging. Warging seems limited though because Jon would have to come back in a different body at some point and I don't know how that could work.

I don't know if bran knows that dragons exist yet. He will have to see one first.

Ok, now I'll ask y'all, do you think syrio would have screamed when he was/is stabbed?

Why not? Getting stabbed with a broadsword hurts like a *****.

He seems like he'd be too proud to cry out in pain as he was dying.

Kind of like the knight who fought Bhron in the Eryie, he just took it.

I really hope Syrio is dead, the story is better served with it. Though it is noteworthy that his head was not one of those mentioned on spikes but some of them were unrecognizable. Martin doesn't seem to have the same affection for Syrio as many readers do either and never talks about him as a significant character.

I also would caution making too much of what happens in the TV show relating to the books. Martin has clearly stated that he has no editorial control over the TV show. He was careful in selecting the makers because they see eye to eye but there is no requirement that they follow the books. He just gets to write one episode per season and be a consultant. There have already been a few minor breaks from the books that may not seem like much now but there is a "butterfly effect" as Martin as said. For instance they tore out the tongue of Marillon the singer in the last episode and in the books he is the Lysa's favorite singer and the fall guy for Littlefinger for her death. Also Mago is the Dothraki that Khal Drogo rips his throat out in the TV show but in the books he lives and joins Jhaqo's khalasar as a bloodrider which Dany is just meeting up with at the end of DWD. Tyrion also says he will take Shae to court with him as his lady but in the books he keeps her very presence a secret only known to Varys and that has a lot of importance going forward. There are other minor things I am sure but those 3 will be interesting to resolve as things develop.

I totally thinki Syrio is dead, but it's fun to imagine.

I also don't know if J'Quaen is the man who kills Pate or if it is a different faceless man.

Interesting point on how Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's mothers all died in childbirth.

Jon has already warged into Ghost, he did it in ACOK where they Ghost is looking down at the headwater of the Milkwater and is attacked by the eagle.

I think Arya's warging is what brings her back from the faceless men. I don't think they know she can do that and are going to have a bad reaction when they do find out. Warging represents very old magic and the Faceless Men do not seem to be fond of that stuff, re: dragons.

Also, I noticed in ACOK when Janos Slynt is sent to the wall the ship he's on visits Skagos... Ive never heard of anyone else visiting that island before that.

rickon, sh****dog, and osha are there right now

Realize that.

The island has always seemed a place where no one else goes. I was suprised to hear that ships visited.

So I've been reading The Hedge Knight (part of a GRRM anthology) and it's fairly entertaining. It's not as good at the main books, but at the same time, it is kind of nice to have a different type of story in the universe, one that features characters that were just kind of referenced.

Of course, the other two Dunk and Egg stories are nowhere to be found on Kindle

Here you go Bluefire, free copies of The Sworn Sword and the Mystery Knight in Epub format. You can read 'em on Kindle.

http://www.epubbud.com/search.php?q=the+mystery+knight&Search=Search

http://www.epubbud.com/search.php?q=sworn+sword&Search=Search

Sweet, thanks man!

Awesome Season 2 pics from Game of Thrones!!!

King Stannis and Melisandre




Brienne!!!!


Lord Snow


All Hail King Robb!!!!


HODOR!!!!!


Theon Greyjoy


King Renly


King Balon Greyjoy


King F!@#face


Davos Seaworth


Arya in disguise..


Tyrion the Player!!!


More on this link...
http://winteriscoming.net/2012/02/the-first-publicity-photos-from-season-two/#more-13874

[This message has been edited by Losman (edited 2/9/2012 4:05p).]

[This message has been edited by Losman (edited 2/9/2012 4:06p).]

Bluefire

ePub can't be read on Kindles, I do have all three Dunk and Egg books on Mobi format.

Anyone else notice the Hand pendant is pointing to his schlong?

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ePub can't be read on Kindles, I do have all three Dunk and Egg books on Mobi format.

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Don't worry, I'm very resourceful, especially when it comes to my kindle

Love Theon's picture and the one of Joffery is pretty damn good as well.