It always amazes me that people love the Syrio Forel character so much that they are willing to throw everything great about that character in the trash (it was all lies, he wasnt first sword of Bravos, he was never who he said he was) and make him a faceless man just to keep what would then be a character we know nothing about so that "Syrio" is still alive.

We still dont know what the Faceless Man wanted from the Citadel. Some suspect this guy to be Jaquen H'ghar but I cant recall what he says is his intentions as he left Harrenhall...

I think theres a clear implication that the faceless man playing Jaqen and the one who heads to the Citadel are the same person. Both (Jaqen after transforming as seen by Arya) are described as hook-nosed, have a scarred face, black curly hair.

hooked-nose and curly-hair...sounds like the entire city of Bravoos. Im not saying it isnt Jaquen.


The question still remains what is he doing in Oldtown. We know so little about the Faceless Men, we dont understand their motives other than their contracts. If Jaquen was contracted to "get something from a locked room in the Citadel" getting locked up in King's Landing then heading north to the Wall is a peculiar way of getting to Oldtown.

Jaquen is certainly one of the most mysterious characters in the books and his end purpose is unknown. I'd put him right up there with Howland Reed (who of course hasn't even been introduced). As for why he went from the dungeons in KL to the Citadel? Who knows. Maybe he was on multiple assignments. Clearly there is something at the Citadel that is important and clearly Jaquen is in Westeros for some reason that would be worthy of expending a huge amount of money to hire him.

BTW, one thing I think will be interesting to see them deal with in the TV show is the Tower of Joy and the Tourney of Harrenhall. Clearly those events are of tremendous importance to connect all the dots and yet they haven't done flashbacks and with Ned now dead and he and Howland Reed being the only survivors of the Tower of Joy I don't know how they will figure that out. I suppose they will either invent a character or simply add some knowledge to another character.

As for Jaime, I still don't like him per se and will be fine with him dying a miserable death for all the things he has done (esp to Bran). It's just that he has clearly grown so much and has lived a very misguided life due to his father and his sister. Cersei is the truly evil one. Jaime is more like the super talented rich kid that always had everything he wanted. Then one day he has his world turned upside down (losing his hand) and he is re-evaluating everything about his life and realizing all of his mistakes. I truly think Jaime has regrets and wishes he had done things differently throughout his life. Cersei on the hand is just pure selfishness and evil, I have absolutely no sympathy for her and hope Lady Stoneheart gets a hold of her.

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Anyone else have a feeling that Martin may crank out the next book faster than expected? It seems like he is doing all he can to take the pressure off as it was clearly as issue before that actually delayed him.

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The problem that caused part, if not most, of the delay was that GRRM had written Dany into a corner. His blog posts made frequent mention of "Kong" and the "Mereenese Knot" that he was having so much trouble untangling. I hope he hasn't gotten himself into a similar situation with Bran or Tyrion.

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I think theres a clear implication that the faceless man playing Jaqen and the one who heads to the Citadel are the same person. Both (Jaqen after transforming as seen by Arya) are described as hook-nosed, have a scarred face, black curly hair.

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They are definitely the same person. The description of the face Jaqen assumed when he left Harrenhal and the description of the man Pate meets in Oldtown is identical. Jaqen then assumed Pate's face. We still don't know what he's up to, though.

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BTW, one thing I think will be interesting to see them deal with in the TV show is the Tower of Joy and the Tourney of Harrenhall. Clearly those events are of tremendous importance to connect all the dots and yet they haven't done flashbacks and with Ned now dead and he and Howland Reed being the only survivors of the Tower of Joy I don't know how they will figure that out. I suppose they will either invent a character or simply add some knowledge to another character.

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It could be that when Bran enters the tree, he sees Lyanna tell Ned "promise me. promise!" Then the next season they finally introduce Reed.

Tyrion now has an army. He is back in the game, he could sail to Aegon or head to Mereen and become Dany's Hand. I would choose Aegon, Dany, to me, seems to be her father's daughter. I expect her character to be vengeful and murderous when/if she comes to Westeros. Tyrion would not be safe even if he brings the Second Sons to her side.

I think Tyrion is in it for the long haul, I also think he is a Targ. He dreams of dragons. He didn't get greyscale. His father treated him like a ******* and we know Tywin's wife was an object of lust for the Mad King. I think he will ride a dragon and become incredibly powerful.

I actually think Dany will get herself killed at some point, and it won't be because of her vengeance but rather her mercy. One consistency in the book is characters are punished for being merciful and Dany is almost as bad as Ned in that regard. Not to mention GRMM loves to kill off protagonists.

There will be 3 dragon riders which have been alluded to over an over in the prophecies, the big question is who are the other 2? Jon is a possibility but his death complicates things. I just don't buy Aegon being real. I think he is the son of Ashara Dayne who is actually Septa Lorraine.

I think Illyrio and Varys are heavily invested in Aegon, not Dany. Varys was willing to kill Dany and he didnt really tip off Jorah, if Varys was backing Jorah he could have told him "hey its a wine merchant."

I think Aegon is real simply because you wouldnt take such precautions on a Dayne. Why would Varys tell Kevan (a dead man) that Aegon was a true Targaryen?

Why would Connington be convinced the boy is a Targaryen if he wasnt? More importantly Connington knows Ashara they danced together in Harrenhall. Why would the spider fake her death after her stillborn? Why would she be strategic in upbringing versus a thousand septas?

I can't answer most of your questions. My logic is based primarily on several things.

Martin rarely has things happen as they appear and Aegon has not been a character until this book. It would just seem odd to have this character virtually no one has an emotional investment in become the Prince Who was Promised. It also doesn't really connect with any of the storylines or prophecies. I certainly don't see him living long even if he is Aegon.

As for Varys and Ilyrio, I think they have multiple bets going and don't care per se about whether it is a true Targ that takes over the 7 Kingdoms so much as the person they want taking over.

As for Connington and the Septa, that one has some openings. What we do know is the Septa has given birth to a child but she never speaks of it. We also know that Dayne had killed herself mysteriously by jumping out of a tower when she was supposedly pregnant. Connington is a bit harder to put together with it, perhaps HE is the father.

The only thing I do know in reading these books is to expect the unexpected and what seems most likely to happen rarely does.

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As for Varys and Ilyrio, I think they have multiple bets going and don't care per se about whether it is a true Targ that takes over the 7 Kingdoms so much as the person they want taking over.

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I disagree. It seemed very clear to me that Varys and Illyrio intended all along that Aegon would be the one to take over the realm. Varys even makes the point that Aegon has been deliberately groomed for responsible leadership so as to avoid the mistakes and madness of the Targaryen line. Viserys' purpose was to act as a diversion from their true aim. Dany's rise to power was not foreseen.

I do not expect Aegon to last long either. At a very convenient time "The blood of a king has entered the game" now lets sacrifice his ass and raise a stone dragon!

I do think he is who he is meant to be...that doesnt mean he will win the throne. Varys has secrets, but all his secrets are rooted in truth, the only lies he makes is saying someone is dead. (Ironically like a spider, he has them wrapped up for his pleasure)

I would very much like to know where Varys has been since freeing Tyrion.

bill...you need to finish book 5

that's all i'll say

I have finished book 5, I know Varys kills Kevan. But there have been months between Tyrion escaping and Varys taking out Pycelle and Kevan. I doubt he just remained hidden in King's Landing. He clearly has too many irons in the fire to just sit around and send messages.

As Martin just said, Dany/Viserys was not ever meant to return to Westeros (at least not without Aegon). Remember Illyrio/Varys in the dungeon "we need more time (before war)." Aegon would still be a few years from manhood, Dany was married. If Drogo had left immediately and Dany raised the Targaryen banners, all the prep of Aegon falls to sh-t. Dany/Viserys was always plan-B for Varys.

oh you meant in between. i mostly just figured he was across the sea making sure all his machinations were going as he wanted them to.

Ok this Septa Lorranie = Ashara Dayne talk as peaked my curiosity...

Did they already film some stuff from Robert's Rebellion? This video is from 10months ago and has Mark Addy without his beard (but as Robert Baratheon)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdGntO7vi0w

Didn't see any new scenes in that unfortunately. I think the beard is just pre makeup. I would actually like some flashback scenes but they seem to be against it. I'd love to see Rhaegar for instance at the battle at the Trident, the Tourney at Harrenhall, or of course the Tower of Joy with the battle with the Sword of the Morning.

It is known that they filmed the Starks being burned by the Mad King.

the burning/strangling they did film parts of, but i'm still not sure if they scrapped it altogether or will use the footage in season 2. in general they haven't made much use of flashbacks or dream sequences, with Bran's 3-eyed-crow as the one exception (and they toned it down like crazy from the book description)

i think hoping for the ToJ is a lost cause - i don't even think it would translate well into the series at this point. they've completely downplayed the romanticism and lore of the Kingsguard in the series, it'd seem out of place in the tv show

i do think it'd be cool if they did some sort of mini-series about Robert's Rebellion. there's a lot of good story to be told there that even Martin never really fleshed out

I think they can do a ToJ when they introduce Reed. But that will be a decade from now.

we don't even know if he'll be introduced in the book series. it wouldn't be out of the question for jon's parentage to never be revealed at all given how martin likes to **** with his readers - and honestly, i'd be okay with it never being revealed.



****** DANCE WITH DRAGONS SPOILERS *******








assuming jon comes back to life somehow, it'd be much, much more interesting to see how he forges his own destiny regardless of his heritage. seeing him as king would just be...blah. i'd rather he lead the NW into glory again.

basically my point is that all the ToJ really does, bottom line, is provide evidence for R+L=J. and it would be okay with me for that to never be confirmed or denied.

Jon being blood of the Dragon makes a helluva difference. It also puts him on Stannis' sh-t list.

i'm not saying it doesn't make a difference in the context of westerosi events, i'm just saying that as readers, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it's never revealed.

**** MORE SPOILERS ******











honestly, i'd even be okay if jon were dead permanently. it'd be a tragic end for him, and it'd be interesting to see how the effects of his actions in book 5, especially with regards to the wildlings, would subsequently ripple out into the rest of what's going on. that's much more fascinating to me than "Jon's destiny", which, if he does end up being the blood of the dragon, Azor Ahai, prince who was promised, or whatever else, would be incredibly cheesy

Robb died because he followed in his father's footsteps of dishonoring himself.
Jon died because he followed in his father's footsteps of naive ruling (ruling with honor).

The only problem I have now is 'who will be the POV character at the Wall.' Its the Winds of Winter and the Others are coming but now we see sh-t through the eyes of Davos or Melissandre? I dont buy it.

I would think it a mindf-ck if Patchface was a player who has been playing dumb the entire time. He sings somewhat prophetic songs and always has the ear of 2nd in line to the throne. Putting ideas in rulers' heads is a game Baelish plays, I wouldnt put it past him to be Patchface's master.

why do you even need someone at the wall?

i think you're underestimating martin's storytelling abilities. if the Wall is the first line of defense against the Others coming back, it would be a hell of a lot more intense and interesting to hear scattered reports of what's going on up there. maybe we even get the news from Sam's perspective in the citadel - i have a feeling he's going to have a BIG part to play in the last couple books

I actually expect the Wall to fall in the next book. I think Jon comes back somehow but he may not be a man of the Night's Watch somehow. There really is no one of note still in the NW outside of Sam and he certainly won't be LC.

I also think the mystery of Jon's parentage is a huge deal because of the tragedy it piles on. The whole dynamic of the story would be so different if it were revealed from an emotional perspective. It also allows for Ned to stay as the man of completely intact honor.

In the end I think the prophecies are always the best way to project what will happen. All of them point to Jon coming back and eventually marrying Dany. They also point to him being AA. Another great indicator of what will happen is to look at Lord of the Rings. Martin has stated over and over that he is a Tolkien worshiper and wants the arc of the story to follow LOR. A bit part of the LOR was that all the story arcs came full circle and made sense. Another is that the characters all meet in the beginning, go their separate ways, and then come back to meet again at the end.

Well Bran's stuck in a tree so I dont think he will be coming back.

I think the tragedy is everyone kinda wants the Old Gods and the Starks to win, but damnit, they just dont have what it takes to win (except maybe Arya.)

I don't think that Stannis would automatically try to kill any of the Targs. I seem to recall reading somewhere that he was not thrilled with Robert going off and trying to start the rebellion, if the true son of Rhaegar/Aerys returned, it would not be stupid to see Stannis falling into support them. Particularly if Melisandre supports it.

Ultimately, what is occurring is that Martin is setting up for a situation in which the kingdom gets behind one person. The question remains which of the three heads of the dragon it will be.

Martin is still a fantasy writer and I expect that while the path is different from other fantasy novels that doesn't mean the ending will be.

Jon had to die in order to be released from his oath to the Night's Watch without dishonor. When Jon rises, he won't be staying on the Wall.

Syrio a Faceless Man, disguised as Ser Meryn Trant?
Patchface a secret spy in service to Littlefinger, the evil genius?

With all due respect, Bill, I'm glad GRRM is writing these books and not you.

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Jon had to die in order to be released from his oath to the Night's Watch without dishonor. When Jon rises, he won't be staying on the Wall.

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An important, and often overlooked, point.

To be fair, Parchface is a creepy MFer. I have a feeling he will have a role to play.

Am I the only one who thinks Stannis may become the Night King?

Im not saying "I think that is the direction GRRM is going." Im saying it would be completely "omgwtf" if true. Syrio is too short to be Trant, but if a Faceless Man could assume the identity of someone (and assume Syrio was a faceless man) it would throw readers for a loop. Arya's instructor in Bravoos said mummers train to mimic, the red priest use trickery (Mance for example), but the facelessmen use true magics to assume identities. Who knows the extent of their magics?

IDK if yall caught it, but when Sam makes it to Oldtown he meets the Sphinx, a Tyrell and another novice Pate. These three were together in the prologue, but we know Pate is dead. Jaquen, presumably, has completely assumed Pates identity, even so much that his friends and acquaintances cant tell the difference.

So let me ask you Martin, why do you think the first sword of bravos, who refuses to give into the god of death is dead by the hands of the least skilled knight of the Kingsguard? There is a reason why Trant was on a milkrun to fetch a 8yo girl, hell he had 6 lannister swords to accompany him. The other knights were protecting Joffrey during the coup. Cersei knows he is crap. And she goes through the list when she is locked up, Trant is crap, but apparently he is skilled enough to draw the blood of a waterdancer. C'mon. If you think about it, it could be entirely plausible that Trant would lose that fight.


But Patchface, how does a fool sing about the red wedding before it happens, how did he know "the blood on the maidens thigh" (the consummation was the moment of the attack). How can a mere dullard be so much in the know? Everyone knows this creature is something either on a different spiritual plane or, as I suggest, is a mummerer that was placed with the "3rd-in-line" (while Robert was king) now the "2nd-in-line".

Why is that so far-fetched? Being Stannis' only heir, the girl is rightful heir after Stannis. Her best friend would be incredibly well-positioned; even more importantly, think of all the information Patchface would know since book2.

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 2/6/2012 1:30a).]