Unicyclist, have you read the girl with tr dragon tattoo?

no, but i've heard there are some bad scenes there. it's not really my cup of tea. GRRM's worst scenes are probably my limit as far as that goes

I am really interested in reading peoples reactions on some of these scenes going forward...

Folks are going to have a hard time dealing with them.

I've accepted that the show is only based on the book for a while now. I feel like if someone doesn't understand that things have to change for a different medium then they're setting themselves up for disappointment

FINISH THE BOOKS GEORGE!!!

So after having read the Theon excerpt from the future book, I totally change my mind on who bran saw die under the Weirwood! Coincidence?!


I think aDWD ending seriously shows that GRRM doesn't care what people think of the characters and isn't attached to any of them!

Bill,

I'm not criticizing the TV show, I think it is doing the best job possible. You simply can't go into the descriptions and backstory on TV as you would put people to sleep. I'm completely fascinated though by looking through the maps and houses and getting the larger understanding for how the world there came to be, it's amazing the depth of creative thought Martin has put into this. I still need to get the Dunk and Egg stories.

Don't know if this has been posted but here but Martin put out this preview chapter of Winds of Winter, it's a Theon POV. His books are far worse than crack mixed with heroin, I don't know how I will make it another couple of years to read it.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

See here's why I think the series will have to follow the book.

To keep the story interesting you have to kill people. If you kill the wrong people, story arcs dont make sense. If story arcs dont make sense, then you will have everyday writers creating an alternate cannon where Robb lives, Jaime dies and Dany marries Shagga (son of Shagga). At the end of the day, if a writer is gonna be writing silly alliances and betrayals it will not be good. And the quality of the show will not be good. GRRM is an EP simply because if you start pulling a thread from a dress its all gonna start falling apart. (But we know how HBO loves it nudity).

No one can tell me what central plot line or detail occurred in book1 that didnt happen in season1. Who really cares when Blackfish enters the story? He doesnt add anything until Catelyn goes to Riverrun anyway.


[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 1/30/2012 4:51p).]

Everyone knows Im a TWD fan. Here is a big difference: TWD is more about cruelty that can happen to the central survivors, the comics add and subtract central characters all the time, the TV added new people that are more interesting than some of the survivors anyways. Thats perfectly fine because its all about cruelty.

I had an interesting conversation with an entertainment pundit after the SAG who said "never expect GoTs to win best actor/actress or supporting role either." I pushed him and asked him why. He said essentially "other shows are about characters (BB, MM, BWE) GoTs is about the plot. No one gets significant enough screentime to wow critics with acting skills."

I got to thinking about it and thats entirely right. I would think Tyrion or Jaime would be worthy of some excellent range on their character but thats about it. Dany is a woman who lusts for men; Cercei is a woman who lusts for power and protects her kids; Jon is a boy who has to take command, he knows nothing; Arya's character is not powerful enough to do anything but what she's told, Theon is somewhat complex but it wont be until Reek (season 5-6), Sansa just has to take it on the chin until she assumes Alayne.

If this series isnt about the plot, it sure as hell wont be about the dramatic development of each character.

i'm not sure what your point is...are you saying the TV series is being handled correctly, or not?

Im saying the book's plot will remain intact. You arent watching GoTs for the great characters or because you are in the niche of fantasy fans. You are watching it because at its core it is a good, complex story. If HBO starts deviating from the books in any major way it takes away from the appeal of the whole show. Deviating by adding insignificant scenes that a POV characters would never be privy to doesnt take away from the books plot.

So Im reaching the end of ADWD, interesting stuff about the Iron Bankers of Bravos. Jon believes they have the power to replace a king. What no one talks about is the potential link between the Bankers and the Guild (Black/White; faceless men).

They take assassination contracts big enough to buy armies and you are telling me to believe the Temple of the Multifaced-God is sitting on this money.

You know what would be a complete mindf-ck? If it turns out Syrio skinned Meyrn Trant and assumed his face. He has gotten fat and slow (Cersei wont use him in a trial). Maybe he isnt himself.

Oh and remember our favorite penny-pinching mockingbird is of Bravosi blood. He is fond of mummerers and identity tricks.

okay, then i agree with you

that said, even though they went with plot over characters in the first season, the acting has been so spectacular that many of the actors are still having some shining moments, notably tyrion, arya, jon, robb, ned (for the time he was on the show) and even dany. obviously people are getting attached to the characters still judging from all the emotional responses to ned's death. it won't be easy to keep that up, but the directors, writers, and cast members have shown so far that they can do it

BTW, i think i've watched that trailer about 15 times so far, and there's a lot more views to come

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You know what would be a complete mindf-ck? If it turns out Syrio skinned Meyrn Trant and assumed his face. He has gotten fat and slow (Cersei wont use him in a trial). Maybe he isnt himself.

Oh and remember our favorite penny-pinching mockingbird is of Bravosi blood. He is fond of mummerers and identity tricks.

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Syrio is most def. NOT a faceless man and while he may not be dead, he isn't hiding out as Trant. (who are you talking about when saying penny-pinching mocking bird?)

Like I said it would be a complete mindf-ck.



Petyr Baelish's great grandfather came across from Bravos as a sellsword and fought for an underlord of the Vale. The lord made his son a knight and gave them a finger. The Baelish's crest is actually the Bravos titan, but Petyr changed it to a mockingbird. (This is all from book 4.) Maybe penny-pinching isnt right, sorry for the confusion. Maybe his willingness to spend was kinda taken for granted. It was Baelish who got the Iron Throne to borrow from Bravos.




[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 1/31/2012 1:57p).]

And the hammer just got dropped...

Never put that together.

Bravo man; could totally see that being a future plot point of contention/importance.

If there was a link between the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank, the deal with Stannis means a lot. The Vale has been neutral and could declare for Stannis. That would get Arya and Sansa together again. It could be that Baelish wanted Stannis to rise out of the Stark/Lannister feud, nothing dumber than a King who is honorable (see Ned Stark).

In actuality I think Baelish is in it for himself, not Bravos. It is funny that the Master of Coin has bravosi blood, it could be a coincidence, it could mean nothing.


I think book 6/7 will be about Varys' schemes versus Littlefinger's schemes. They are the best at the game and I think that will trump gods, secrets and magics.

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 1/31/2012 2:45p).]

Trying to find the quote about Baelish revealing to Sansa how to play the game I came across this:

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As he led her below, he said, “Tell me of the feast. The queen took such pains. The singers, the jugglers, the dancing bear... did your little lord husband enjoy my jousting dwarfs?”
“Yours?”
“I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey... you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, ‘Why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hate dwarfs.’ I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, ‘Not as much as your uncle will.,”

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In all the free cities in all the world, why does he get entertainment dwarfs from Bravos? Bigger question why doesnt Tyrion see that someone provoked his fight with Joff. Tyrion was so worried about a singer singing about Shae that he missed that the dwarf-joust was meant to raise pulses as well. Tyrion just assumes Joffrey bought himself some trained dwarfs.





[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 1/31/2012 3:28p).]

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“Why should I wish him dead?” Littlefinger shrugged. “I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.”
“What... what game?”
“The only game. The game of thrones.”

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Bill, you're good at remembering all this.

I guess I should re-read FFC and DWD.

I started reading the series in October?...many of the details are fresh.

Im like 3 chapters away from being caught up in ADWD. I just read Jon's chapter...Melisandre might "Dondarrion" Jon. But idk.

The Wiki of Ice and Fire is helpful after you have read the books to recall details. I also have the audio books to listen to when I am doing other things. Roy Dotrice does most of the audio for the collections and I look forward to his role in Season 2.

There is definitely something to the Littlefinger/Braavos connection but the Iron Bank seems unlikely other than a casual relationship. Pretty sure the Iron Bank is the front for the Faceless Men since they seem to have all this money but no real need for it and no one messes with the Iron Bank because they seem to have the ability to take out anyone.

I'm really anxious to see some Sansa chapters to figure out what Littlefinger is up to. It got really interesting at the end of AFFC but no Sansa in DWD.

I don't think anyone really thinks Jon is truly dead. It would be such a waste with so many plotlines that couldn't circle back from his true parentage to his being the Heir of Winterfell to him meeting all the characteristics of Azor Ahai to the alluding to him being the husband for Dany. Mel will almost certainly bring him back or worst case he will become a warg.

I also don't buy that the "pink letter" is real. It just doesn't add up either and feels more like Manderly's "I have Davos' hands on a spike" letter. BTW, I freaking love Manderly.

I'm still not arguing with you about the TV show being similar to the book I'm just saying it will have to have some differences. Since Martin is so close to the project though and he was so careful in selecting the makers I feel confident they will make it as close as possible. There are just limitations with converting book to screen. As for Blackfish I just wish he was on the TV show just because he is one of my favorite characters. Too bad Edmure isn't half of what his uncle is.

I do not think Littlefinger is working for the Iron Bank or the Temple of the Multifaced-God. He is working for himself. I dare say he anticipated the Lannisters ignoring payments. With Stannis and Pyke the only alternatives, Petyr knows who the Iron Bank will come to (Bravos is a sea-power, Im sure they are no friends of the Iron Islands).

There are really only two Houses that have stayed out and kept strong, Dorne (who may be pissed at the Targaryens after Quentyn dies) and the Vale (who was probably instructed to stay out by Petyr.) Take those two, the remnants of the north and the Iron Bank and you have a formidable force. Soon Highgarden and the Lannisters will be at each others throats with the fallout of Cersei and Margaery.

I look for big things from drone.

It is true that the Vale and Dorne have stayed out, they are also 2 of the least populated areas though and have the most logistical difficulty going on an expansive campaign. Neither is strong enough to takeover the 7 Kingdoms alone.

There are just so many moving parts it truly is impossible to predict how things will go. I think Highgarden is going to get squeezed on all sides though with the Golden Company on one side and the Lannisters on another mixed in with the Dornes possibly jumping in. Dany is the big wildcard. If she can get the Dothraki behind her along with her Unsullied and get them to Westeros with her Dragons I don't think anything can stop her except herself (which she is more than capable of doing). Then of course there is the North and the Iron Islands waiting out there to shake things up. The only House that seems to be truly out of it with a limited future is Riverrun, but in true Martin fashion that could mean they are about to make a big comeback (maybe Blackfish gets together with some allies and takes Casterly Rock with all of the chaos and frees Edmund).

Of course somewhere in this is are the plotlines of Jon (assuming he is alive) and Bran and the wildlings and the White Walkers and CoTF. Simply too much time has been devoted to them for it all to be for naught. It's easily the most complex plot I have ever read and with Martin's style of "no one is safe" and where some of his biggest villains become folks you can't help but root for (Jaime) there is no telling what will happen.

That to me is the most incredible part of the series. I still can't believe I'm rooting for Jaime at this point, considering how I felt about him after book 1.

2 interesting thoughts:

1) Winter is coming. Highgarden is the breadbasket, people have to eat.

2) Im near convinced that Aegon will be betrayed and will be sacrificed to raise the stone dragon.


Think about those.

The Vale of Arryn produces a lot of food in the valley. The key for the North will be keeping White Harbor open, still they are in for a rough Winter. The Riverlands are in a world of hurt because they have taken the brunt of the wars and virtually all the crops have been destroyed. Casterly Rock can always buy food. The Stormlands and Dorne should be fine.

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That to me is the most incredible part of the series. I still can't believe I'm rooting for Jaime at this point, considering how I felt about him after book 1.

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I've seen enough people make comments like this that I know I'm in the minority. But, as much as Martin obviously wants me to, I cannot muster any sympathy for Jaime.

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The Vale of Arryn produces a lot of food in the valley

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Littlefinger will be quite miserly. A long summer means a long winter...

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The Stormlands

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Relatively small, heavily wooded. Not really a rich land and now they are under Aemon Targaryen.

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Dorne

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Dorne is mountains and dessert.

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Casterly Rock can always buy food

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Who will they buy from? They wouldnt give the Tyrell that power; no food in Dorne, the Riverlands, the Iron Isles or the North.



I rather be a Tyrell come winter. And they are the furthest from the White Walkers.

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 2/2/2012 11:37p).]

One more thing:

In S01E08, Osha is with Bran under the hearttree. She tells Bran they should be headed north not south, then she ends with "the cold winds are rising." If you have seen this teaser, Stannis uses the same phrase (also in ACOK). Maester Pycelle mocks the phrase.


On a sidenote, I cant see why the producers cant spring to film all of Bran's scenes, it probably only adds up to 2 hours in the remaining seasons (3-6/7). Once he is in the trees, he can be old or growing and it wont matter.

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Dorne is mountains and dessert

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Did you mean Doon, the Dessert Planet, also known as Arruckus? I hope that if National Lampoon does a parody of GOT that it's better than that stinker.

I don't disagree at all that Highgarden should have the most food and be the best place for the Winter. Of course, that assumes that Martin doesn't have some crazy things in store. Maybe all the battles are about to be in Highgarden just as they were in the Riverlands before for instance. The Iron Islands certainly seem to have some interest in ripping up the Reach and Dorne hates Highgarden.

The point on Casterly Rock is they can still buy food from elsewhere, you can still ship it in from the Free Cities.

Anyone else have a feeling that Martin may crank out the next book faster than expected? It seems like he is doing all he can to take the pressure off as it was clearly as issue before that actually delayed him. The guy can flat out crank out the pages fast, that has never been in doubt. The question has always been him deciding on what direction to go. I have a feeling he is starting to see an end now as the TV show will likely come to mind and make some decisions easier for him and he has committed to really limiting the number of new characters. He has also always said he knows how things will end and has actually shared some of that information with the TV guys just in case he has a heart attack.

It also seems like the middle is the toughest part for fantasy writers because they have to fill in the gaps while now he is going to start working toward closing the loop. I am hopeful he has learned from the mistakes of the last few years as well with getting overcommitted with other projects, he did a much shorter signing tour and though he is still doing writing and editing of a lot of other things that doesn't seem to slow him as much, he also said he had over 100 pages done when he finished DWD. I would sure love it if he could get WoW out next year.

Here's hoping.