I'd like to know how they got it all out of the house without falling through the floor in the kitchen. This is one of the pictures from the listing. The Barney purple was the first thing to go after I patched a ton of holes from the giant shelf on the wall.

We need ice days more often. I wrapped up leveling the new joists to where they should be, got the new center beam in place, put in blocking, taped and sealed the vapor barrier and put in subfloor until I ran out of fasteners. Structural work is beyond boring and I can't wait until it's all finished. You can get a ton accomplished and at the end of the day it still looks about like it did in the morning.

Cabinet quotes are coming in. From well respected local places we're looking at about $435 / linear foot. I know that's not the best way to price this sort of thing out but it's just a reference point for any that are curious or planning their own remodel. Installation would be an additional $715.10 for 42.25 linear feet (18 boxes). I've hung plenty of cabinets before but I'm tempted to go with it because with this many boxes for such long runs it might be worthwhile.

Another note for anyone retrofitting a gas line into their kitchen through a crawlspace is that the contractor I talked to said it would be easier and less expensive (one trip vs. two) for him to come out after the cabinets and appliance is in. The best way for them to run it is for the line to come up to a shutoff mounted at the bottom rear of the cabinet instead of trying to make a cutout in the wall for it. This means I don't need to keep the crawlspace easily accessible for gas people and I can start permanently attaching more of the subfloor.

We're also meeting someone about insulation today for the exposed roof in the family room, which makes perfect sense because our freezing weather is finally over and it's needed nowhere near as desperately as it was just a couple of days ago.

Things are finally moving along at least, even though it's sort of at a slow pace.

You're going with a 'cold roof' in your family room, right? As in, there's roof decking, insulation, joists, and drywall with no attic space?

Two big things: You need to close off any soffit vents that open in to that space. Otherwise, you will be in a world of hurt as moisture gets into that space but cannot leave. Just blocking the vents with insulation isn't enough, because air can still move through insulation, you have to actually close them off.

Second, you want to ask them about using firring strips (either metal or wood) and some sheet foam up there in order to get a thermal break. The biggest issue with the cold roof assembly is that a piece of wood, even a 2x12, is only about R8 worth of insulating factor, so you'll end up with a really cold inside ceiling in the winter and a real hot one in the summer if you don't do something about the bridging.

If I was doing it again in the house I did, I would probably put the R-30 fiberglass the bays between the joists like I did (but unfaced if I'm using XPS), add 1" of XPS foam in sheets, foam or tape the seams, and then add 2x4s going 90 degrees to the joists at 24" OC spans. I'd fit more XPS in between the 2x4s, and the drywall would get attached to the 2x4s.

Also, check with what AgDrummer paid for his cabinets. He got them installed by a GC that normally does cabinets for apartment communities. There's also a bunch of ads for cabinet wholesalers (order online, hire labor to hang them) in the back of Fine Homebuilding and JLC; if you want, I can grab the info from those ads.

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Also, check with what AgDrummer paid for his cabinets. He got them installed by a GC that normally does cabinets for apartment communities.

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~$2,400 for all-wood cabinets + installation*

*Install included all of the finishing, assembly and matching molding on top of the uppers. There was nothing "custom", though I was a little limited on color choices.

Drawing here:



B30 = lowers with a shelf and a drawer
W3030 = uppers with 2 shelves
W3615x21 = upper, no shelf, designed for above the fridge
B27 and BOC27 = lowers (not as wide as B30) with one shelf
DB18-3 = lower with three drawers

Pics here:

There is one soffit that goes up to this area and it is closed off in preparation for the changes. We're looking at closed cell spray foam up there but will be sure to ask about a thermal break when we talk this afternoon. Thanks, that's something I was unaware of. The ceiling will be paneling, but that probably doesn't matter at all.

The cabinets in your kitchen look great, however finding the right look for us has been a real challenge. We're going with a matching grain, horizontally-oriented veneer. Probably walnut. Because of this we're into full custom territory. The filler panel to hide the vent over the cooktop is also probably not a catalog item. The uppers will run up to about 3" from the ceiling instead of going all the way in order to deal whatever variability there is in overall height throughout the room and I will make a white panel and recess it slightly to fill the gap. Also we will be buying pantry doors to match the cabinets. This should give an idea...





[This message has been edited by The Fife (edited 1/31/2014 12:39p).]

I hope it works out. Sounds expensive.

Us too because we don't plan on moving again and don't want to deal with another remodel for a LONG time.

The insulation quote came back a bit more than we thought it would but it's something I think we'll go ahead and do just because the family room has been a challenge to cool even with 8' ceilings. It faces southwest and the roof gets tons of sunlight. We also plan on relocating the thermostat and return to this room. Where they are now it pulls more air and measures the temperature from the part of the house served by the other system than areas it actually works with.

As more actual costs become known I'm more than happy to share for anyone who's planning their own remodel. I searched all over for what to expect on a lot of this and had a hard time finding much, and a lot of it is good to know just for planning purposes.

Really like the kitchen look you're planning.

Fife, for the roof insulation I would probably go with a "flash and batt" technique -- that still lets you use cheap fiberglass insulation batts, but you also get the advantage of a skim coat of spray foam first.

But it's not worth doing spray foam at all unless you do something about the thermal bridging. It doesn't matter how good the insulation you put between the rafters is if 25%+ of your ceiling surface inside is only a few degrees different than the outside roof decking temp.

The 2x8s sistered to the 2x6 rafters are not in contact with the decking; they were added for stiffening and to give a level surface to install the ceiling on and of course, there is no 2x6 contact with the ceiling. There's a gap between the top of each 2x8, generally about 1/2 inch that would be filled with foam. Would thermal bridging be an issue in this case? I can understand if it were coming from the decking but didn't know it was as much a problem as you move laterally.

Part of the reason for going closed cell was for added stiffening because the roof does have a big span with a low slope. Would using foam + fiberglass cost us some of that?

Foam won't actually stiffen anything ... I mean, it will, but I can't see how that's going to be advantageous to you. It means you can't ever replace the roof decking, for one, and any roof leak is going to be a pain in the ass to locate and fix.

I can't see what you're talking about with the sistering and with the space in between the wood. Can you provide a better picture?

I should be able to get one late this afternoon.

I did read up and give flash and batt serious consideration. As it stands, going with foam only in the family room ceiling and sides puts us right around the minimum amount for the insulators to come out, so there really wouldn't be much savings if I were to thin it out unless I tore up other areas for them to go. The only other issue that came to mind would be moisture control in winter since we're going with paneling on the ceiling and the air infiltrating upward would encounter the cooler surface of the foam, but I doubt it's cold enough here to drop below the dew point anyway.

The moisture barrier issue is the reason that I was suggesting that you go with XPS. Unless you have zero air pockets up there, zero air movement, a surface that water is less likely to condense on, and everything is sealed on both sides so that you don't get moisture moving through, you're going to end up with mold on one side or another of that drywall. It's sort of the problem with cold ceiling designs.

Spray foam can make it worse, in my opinion. In some cases, it allows moisture to enter via the wood framing and then doesn't allow it to leave.

Seems like it's a pretty tough spot either way you look at it. Here's what I was talking about with the sistering. The gaps with the decking are sort of visible and a 2x6 rafter can be seen at the left side of the picture.

Yeah, you'll still have lots of thermal bridging.

You'll also have moisture transmitted by the roof decking to the rafters in heavy rain, if you ever get a fierce enough cold snap to cause ice dams, or as the roof starts to fail. If anything rots or you get a hailstorm or a tree through the roof, then you kiss your investment in spray foam completely goodbye and you dramatically increase the cost to fix the structure because you can't reapply the spray foam from outside.

I wouldn't even flash and batt it unless you had a specific reason for doing so; e.g. If you wanted to achieve R-45 or greater. I would seal the gable end with spray foam, and then I would put unfaced batts appropriate for the space (you're zone 3/4, so R-38 should be sold up there) and then at least an inch of XPS. Tape the seams of the XPS and you should be airtight. Air will still move around in there, but it would condense against the XPS if it even could, which is unlikely. Ore importantly, moisture that wicked in with the wood will escape.

If you want to get fancy, use Roxul batts instead of fiberglass. You get a higher R value for the space and it's a little easier to handle. Roxul can't mold. At that point the only thing in your roof that would be able to rot is the framing.

I'm admittedly biased against spray foam. I'm very bearish on it's long term prospects. I don't think it will continue to be seen as a miracle product in the future -- it'll be a "yeah, we used to do that. Not anymore. For a reason.". You can essentially never fix the part of the house it's attached to without being able to access both sides. Even the real energy nerds are going completely away from spray foam towards gaskets and caulk for air sealing to Passivhaus standards.

That's a lot to think about and the cost is probably a lot less (even more so depending on the insulation I removed). But I have to ask, why tape the seams since paneling will be up instead of drywall, and there will also be recessed lighting?

In the long term (10 years) there's a chance there will be solar panels up there. The roof faces southwest and is unobstructed by trees at any time of day. Since it would shade the roof the insulation needs would be lessened during the cooling season and lengthen the payback for whatever we use to keep the heat out.

Tape the seams because vapor barrier and also air barrier. Even inside a "sealed" joist bay, there will still be some air that moves in and out. After a couple years, it's enough air moving in and out to leave grey/brown dust trails along seams, especially seams with a certain size gap.

Moisture and mold will condense at those seams too, further attracting a dark stain.

It's actually less important with drywall than it is with paneling.

And it will be cheaper.

And even if you have solar panels, you still need to insulate to R-38 in your attic. It's not just the law, it's a good idea.

Oh yeah we planned on insulating well, but that if it were highly insulated from spray foam the benefits might decrease if there's a lot less sunshine on the roof due to solar panels.

I'm not trying to be difficult with the tons of questions, just figuring out the details. There are triangular areas I have to deal with too. One small one is against an exterior wall and the others are adjacent to attic space. I assume those would be insulated in the traditional way with more fiberglass? Also for sealing the low end of the room, where would such a small amount of foam come from? Perhaps from cutting xps to fit the gaps and sealing around the edges with the canned stuff? How would the recessed lighting fixtures/cans/boxes handle the extra ceiling thickness due to XPS? The only ones I could see working are retrofit cans that would grab on to the paneling.

The cost difference between this vs spray foam are about $1,500 by the way so I do need to at least say thanks here.

No problem. $1500 is a lot, and I'm a cheap SOB.

The cans need little insulated houses, regardless of if they're IC rated or not. You can use the retrofit ones without any problem that way. The little houses should get hung first, and caulked to the back of the paneling or drywall for air sealing purposes.

I'm going off of what I've read in the more recent FHB and JLC editions. I missed a few issues of JLC, though.

Ok it's all making more sense now. I kept thinking about the housings I've put in for recessed lighting that attach to the bottom of the ceiling joist and are set at a pretty fixed height. Of course we have no clue what we're doing with lighting and where it'll go, so I see a bunch of unfaced insulation going up for now until we have time to work on the plan for this room some more and then wire it up and get the foam sheeting up.

At this point I know long lead time items are going to come back and get me so the flooring will be on order today/tomorrow and this evening we'll hop on the computer to make the decision of where to have two drawers, where to have 3, what the size of the tall cabinet for the oven will be and how we're going to do pantry doors. We're already near the point where I'll be able to close up the subfloor and the hardwood should be ready to go after that.

I checked around today and R-38 is surprisingly hard to find around here. Nobody has it. Apparently chapter 11 of the IRC was deleted without substitution because energy efficiency is defined by statute at the state level. That standard is the 2009 IECC and zone 3-a = r-30.

What fun... I don't envy anyone that has to dig around figuring that sort of thing out every day. I'll stick with dealing with the FAA.

I don't know where you're located but I had trouble finding insulation for my bathroom. These guys had a ton of what I needed in stock:

http://www.insulating-products.com/contact.asp

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That standard is the 2009 IECC and zone 3-a = r-30.

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Ok. R-30 is pretty easy to find. Even down here in Texas. Without visiting specialty shops. If you pair R-30 fiberglass or roxul insulation with an inch and a half of XPS, you're at R-38 anyway. (1 inch would be R-30.)

Drumma, he's in NC.

Close... Charleston, SC. We're an hour and a half from Savannah, GA and maybe... 2 1/2 hours (?) Away from the NC border if you go up I-95. I think it's closer if you go up the coast though. The climate is basically Houston in summer, DFW in winter.

Also only an hour and a half away from Columbia for anyone interested in catching an A&M / USC game.

[This message has been edited by the fife (edited 2/4/2014 5:55p).]

We finally have a few things to update...

The insulation quote came in at $1,900 for anyone interested in spray foam. This would be the triangular-shaped sides, high and low sides, and 3" at the top of the ceiling for the family room. 99% sure we're not going with that but with the superspeck insulation plan instead which will basically just cost us for the XPS because I already have more than enough fiberglass batts to do the area. Also most of them are already in. The rental would be $2,300 (+ $600 for fiberglass removal) for 2" of foam underneath the house (about 800 square feet of crawlspace underneath a 95 year old craftsman).

Things I'm building... SABC #2 is complete. The longest part was routing in a channel for the wire and a hole for the wall box on the outlet mounted on the column. At this point all kitchen circuits are in and the only remaining work is to wire up minor things like pendant lights and the pantry lighting. Not a big deal.

The cabinets... We're 100% sure we're going with the custom place I talked to now. We met up yesterday and their veneer samples look like exactly what we're looking for and there's enough nonstandard stuff so that I'm confident that going custom is the only way we'd be able to pull this off. Aside from the finish, we'll be able to go with a 30" wall oven without stepping up to a 33" cabinet since any size is a possibility, the panel to hide the vent hood is a non-issue along with the one on the family room facing side in front of where stools will go, and the big problem I've been facing... How to deal with whatever gap there might be between the upper cabinet and ceiling. Normally crown takes care of that but we won't have any... They'll be able to do a panel with the same veneer to match the space, even if it varies a bit.

At this point we're working on the last design detail with the pantry since they'll also be doing the doors. The area is 8 feet wide x about 18-24 inches deep and I'm trying to decide on doors. At this point I'm thinking about 3x double doors @ 14 inches wide with 6" of wall on the left and right side of the pantry. Keeping the doors that width I think should keep them from swinging too much into the room, avoid the entrance to the hallway leading towards 3 bedrooms altogether, and the 6" of wall to the left and right should allow the right-most door enough space to open out to 120 degrees. The big downside with going with 3 sets of double doors is that to get into the pantry you're always going to be opening at least one set at a time. Another idea was to go with 3 doors @ 24 inches wide, leaving 12 inches at the end of the pantry. This would allow us to have just a bit more storage since shelving could come forward at the left/right end instead of being straight across the back of the pantry.

Any thoughts on the pantry door scheme?

[This message has been edited by The Fife (edited 2/6/2014 8:53a).]

maybe a larger double sliding door?

something frosted like this (not this big but same idea)?



[This message has been edited by sts7049 (edited 2/6/2014 8:58a).]

+1 on sliding doors

Having multiple sets of doors would bug me

Only if it's hydraulically activated and goes "WHOOSH" into the wall like on Star Trek.

I don't think it'd work in our house because the dogs track all kinds of crap in. So much dog hair gets bound up in any sliding door's rollers that I'd have to take the door apart and clean/repair them monthly. Ain't nobody got time for dat.

Sliding doors were the original plan actually but I'm not sure how well they would work so you tell me... here's how it's situated. The pantry bumps out from the end of an existing wall by about 2 feet. The right side is at the corner of the room. It runs most of the width of the kitchen but not the entire way across because I'd run into door swing issues with the coat closet. I never could come up with a way for sliding doors to get a large enough opening because they could be at most 2 feet wide if they're supposed to be the same size and still able to open all the way. The left and right corners might become difficult to use because they're too deep from where someone would stand. The pantry will be deep (currently modeled at 20" interior space) but I'm not sure that's deep enough to walk to the left or right in beyond the doorway.

I can slide a door to the left beyond the end of the pantry but it would have to be hung in the ceiling, and doors cannot be slid beyond the right end due to the wall. Is there a way to make sliding doors work without losing some of the functionality of the area? If we go with doors that swing they would have the same veneer as the cabinets and they wouldn't be traditional passage type doors. I tried frosted glass with the wifey and she wasn't a fan of that.

edit: Maybe three sliding doors at about 28" wide each that are tiered? That could yield an unobstructed opening 4'8" wide and the entire width of the pantry would be easy to use. With sliding glass doors slide maybe she'd be down for frosted glass... I think with the LED strip lighting in the pantry it could look cool.

[This message has been edited by The Fife (edited 2/6/2014 11:24a).]

Why couldn't you have the same veneer on sliders?

That's a possibility too if they're able to do it. I played around a bit online to look for places selling this type of door and it looks like something that exists, but they didn't have any solid options that would take a veneer. The wife is open but nervous about the concept. Her parents place was built by KB and has a bedroom closet with two sliding hollow core 6 panel doors that always come off the tracks and doen't stay all the way closed. Apples and oranges, I know.

yeah, i know what she means by those cheapy crap things usually found on closets. but there's surely lots of higher quality smooth options out there.

Nothing like food poisoning to steal a Saturday.

Superspeck was right again on the spray foam, by the way. While lying down trying not to be sick for the 8th time today and listening to the rain I kept hearing a tapping coming from the living room. It was a leak above the couch that would have gone unnoticed for years.