Since finishing up the living room I've been hard at work coming up with a new floorplan for the kitchen. It used to be on a wall that faced the back yard, but now it's next to a living room that was added on around 10 years ago. The kitchen remained the same - keeping a window to the living room above the sink and sliding glass door-sized doorway between the two areas. Where there once was an eat in breakfast area is now a corner that no longer has a window to the outside.

We have a pretty good overall plan for what we need to do. 20 feet of the old exterior wall is going away, the peninsula that sticks out into the middle of the room will disappear and the other peninsula the sink and dishwasher are on will grow by 3 feet. A pantry is going in at the end that was the breakfast area. That I could use help with. Right now I drew it as a huge closet with double doors but there has to be a better way.

If I can find a good designer to help nail down the last of the details I'll go with them. We really need help with the pantry and lighting more than anything, along with anything obvious we missed. One suggestion so far was to move the arched doorway between the kitchen and dining room over some. Any and all advice here is welcome. We know some of the basics... the floor will be heated stone / we found some walnut cabinets with vertical grain that we like / appliance brands are generally figured out already. The ceiling in the kitchen will stay 8 feet, but in the blue room I'm raising it to about 12.

Here are the pics along with a few virtual before and afters. I did it all in Sketchup. It's really fast and easy to learn. Overall it's a large kitchen - 27 feet long x close to 13 feet wide.







Before / After 1





Before / After 2





Before / After 3





Before / After 4





Before / After 5




Advice and suggestions are totally welcome - this isn't my first kitchen to do but it's by far the biggest redesign.

[This message has been edited by The Fife (edited 6/26/2013 7:34p).]

Hate to ask a stupid question, but where would your fridge go?


And to ask a funny question, in your 1st photo, the new doesn't have the dog in place. You getting rid of that too?

~egon

EDIT: I would put in more counter space instead of a big open space, but that is me. When I cook, I love having lots of counter space. Also is nice to entertain/put out food/drinks. Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Doctor (edited 6/27/2013 10:23a).]

I'm guessing the fridge gets built in with matching panels.

Are you sure you've got enough cabient space?

Also, you seem to be wasting a huge amount of space between the end of your island and your pantry area. Long linear kitchens can be difficult, especially when you're adjoining so many rooms, but I would look into taking advantage of some of that space, maybe even expanding the bath on the other side of the wall.

Nice work with Sketchup! It is such a useful tool, need to refresh my skills.

quote:

---

Hate to ask a stupid question, but where would your fridge go?

And to ask a funny question, in your 1st photo, the new doesn't have the dog in place. You getting rid of that too?

~egon

EDIT: I would put in more counter space instead of a big open space, but that is me. When I cook, I love having lots of counter space. Also is nice to entertain/put out food/drinks. Just a thought.

---

The fridge would go in one of the paneled areas. I'm making a space 48" wide so we'll have room once our current, nearly new fridge goes out someday.

I need to post another pic this evening because it's looking like the arched door will move to the center of the room, wall cabinet with the oven and microwave will shift to the corner, then the cooktop/hood, then base and wall cabinets,and the refrigerator at the very end. That'll allow for more counter space at the corner where the cooktop currently is, and I may be able to squeeze in one more base and wall cabinet. There is already almost 5 feet of countertop space to the left of the sink, alone. I've never dealt with an area this large. Would that be enough?

The dog hasn't found out how to photobomb SketchUp pictures... yet.

quote:

---

I'm guessing the fridge gets built in with matching panels.

Are you sure you've got enough cabient space?

Also, you seem to be wasting a huge amount of space between the end of your island and your pantry area. Long linear kitchens can be difficult, especially when you're adjoining so many rooms, but I would look into taking advantage of some of that space, maybe even expanding the bath on the other side of the wall.

---

Yep. I should've made it stainless instead of wood colored.

I'll need to recount after moving the doorway and seeing what fits, but the net change in cabinets between the as-is and future layout is:
+ 1 24" base cabinet
+ under cooktop storage (there is currently none)
+ 30" of cabinet or large drawer space under the warming drawer at the end of the peninsula
- 5 wall cabinets. Right now three of them are used for food + one for small appliances that will all relocate to the pantry. Everyday plates will move to another wall cabinet. It's hard to get those back because of the wall that's going away and moving the fridge.

Good call on ID-ing the bathroom across the wall from the pantry. It's already about 8 inches wider than a standard bathroom - POs had to frame out a bit to accommodate the crappy 1 piece fiberglass bathtub/shower they put in. That room is worse than the kitchen is - I hate pedestal sinks in a full bath and the cat does too.

I'm not sure what making it wider would really get me, unless it were carried over to the green bedroom? That bedroom is already growing 18 inches and getting its closet back when I delete the hall between it and the bathroom, bringing it back to the original layout. The POs really hated storage space.

One suggestion was to extend the peninsula and add cabinets facing the breakfast area (blue room) as well as turn it into an island. Is it ok for something like that to come out from a room with 8 foot ceilings into one where it's 11? It would also straddle the original house + addition but structurally that shouldn't cause any problems as long as the joists are the same height between the two...

[This message has been edited by The Fife (edited 6/27/2013 12:19p).]

Here's the newest model with the door moved. I don't quite like where I put the cooktop and it may trade places with the 18" cabinet to look more like this picture.

This netted 1 18" base and wall cabinet. Is the layout looking any better? The built in spot for the fridge is way over to the right now but the doors won't interfere with traffic from the hall. It looks a lot like this kitchen now.
http://pinterest.com/pin/45528646204473881/

Meant to sit down and sketch up some ideas this afternoon, but I got busy, and now I'm tired... Anyway, this design would have been one of my suggestions, however, I think you should extend the island to fit the cook top, line the back wall with upper cabinets and use a surface exhaust for the cooktop.

Even if you don't want to do that for whatever reason, I like your latest design much better, especially after your comment about lack of storage space. You can never have too many kitchen cabinets, especially if they're natural walnut.

Also, any particular reason you're keeping that drop in ceiling between the kitchen and living area? Getting rid of that, if you can, would really open up the kitchen.

quote:

---

Also, any particular reason you're keeping that drop in ceiling between the kitchen and living area? Getting rid of that, if you can, would really open up the kitchen.

---

I'm think I'm of stuck with it purely because the air handlers have to live somewhere, but who knows what the future will bring. Currently the whole house has 8 feet ceilings - they're dropped in part of the addition (blue room) and that will be simple to raise up. For the original parts of the house I'll have to wait until it's time to re-roof to raise the ceiling because the whole roofline will change at that time. The old part of the house slopes towards and away from the street. I want it to turn 90 degrees so it looks more like this:

quote:

---

Meant to sit down and sketch up some ideas this afternoon, but I got busy, and now I'm tired... Anyway, this design would have been one of my suggestions, however, I think you should extend the island to fit the cook top, line the back wall with upper cabinets and use a surface exhaust for the cooktop.

---

I think there's still lots of work to do on the peninsula... island... whatever it will be and doing a quick model of that might show what does and doesn't work. Are there higher end downdraft gas cooktops even available though? If I end up building it out past the limits of the current wall between the kitchen and living room I'm in for a whole other level of fun because that would sit on both the existing kitchen structure that I planned on replacing and now the living room joists that I'd planned on replacing next year when I raise the ceiling and do tons of other work around the house. Doing just that portion of the room would be possible though. I'm not sure how to handle flooring if the peninsula does extend though - having it start/stop in line with the rest of the kitchen or extending it on around. In the living room we're looking into doing walnut again because we liked that in our last house.

Some of the other things I've heard were moving the wall oven and microwave to fit in base cabinets (sounds inconvenient, especially the microwave?).

Ah, I didn't catch that the blue room didn't already have a sloped ceiling. But since you're tearing out an old exterior wall anyway, I would look at moving the support up above your 8' ceiling in the kitchen.

As far as the exhaust, my wife's parents remodeled their kitchen around 6 years ago with a downdraft exhaust and it works very well. I can't recall the brand now, but I would be surprised if you couldn't find something to fit your budget and style so many years later.

And regarding your structure, I don't think I would let something like a few extra weekends of work impact something as critical as a kitchen remodel. If you don't like extending the island/peninsula, that's fine, but I wouldn't not do it because of the foundation/structure work you've got.

Once I get the drywall off the former exterior wall we'll be able to tell how high the LVL(s?) will be. That part is being contracted out to a friend who's a builder and remodeler. I'm prepared for there to be a small header of some kind if need be but maybe it'll be possible for it to go up higher. The structure there is all the original house and ceiling joists. The old decking and shingles are even still in place.

I'm very likely to extend the island/peninsula out just to grab the extra storage space. I was going to redo the joist structure under that room next year anyway and this is only about a 15x9 area to do early. It's small compared to the rest of the room. Something like that would only add on an extra week to the project. Been there / done that, and I work fast. It'll be more of a pain to be careful pulling up the hardwood so I can put it back down for a while than anything else, or I could just dive right in to working that room since I would have already started it.

I really like the second layout better. By moving the entry from that side room into the kitchen, it allows you to utilize that entire wall for cabinets. I would look at centering the cooktop between the oven cabinet and the refrigerator to give you work space on each side.

Incremental update... I only had time to add the cabinet doors, move the cooktop and make a bigger peninsula. Were very likely going to go with a quartz countertop that wraps around so I'm not worried about how the peninsula/island looks from the side. Facing the blue room are cabinets and a wine chiller. Adding cabinet doors really shows how big the room actually is.

I still need to model making an island and moving the cooktop to it. The lone cabinet on the short wall isn't making a whole lot of sense anymore so I'll probably delete it. There isn't a lot of time in the evening when you need to go in to work at 5am the next morning.

I would not put the stovetop in the peninsula especially now that there's going to be a seating area on the other side (was going to recommend that, good choice!). It's a kid hazard, plus who wants to sit there while something is boiling/cooking? I also am not a fan of sinks that open to a living area because that means any time there are dishes in the area you're going to have it right in your face but unfortunately I'm not seeing a way around it. If you like raised eating bars (I personally don't) that might help.

If plumbing allows or you're willing to move it, I would play with pushing that doorway completely toward the living area and pulling the peninsula off that wall so that it's an island and even with the back cabinets/other doorway. That would open the area even more and you would also gain more cabinet and counter space.

How much space is between the peninsula and cabinet wall? It looks like a lot. I wouldn't do more than 5ft to maintain functionality and 4 is minimum. So you can possibly make it bigger or claim back some space from the other room.

Do you have something specific in mind for the tiny sliver of counter space between the fridge and doorway? It seems like wasted counter and storage space.

I have some other ideas but they require changing the peninsula to an island.

I just spent an entire month on kitchen layout for our custom build and that was even with an architect.

I more or less reached the limit for how far towards the blue/living room the arched doorway can move. The main panel for the house is in the corner of the dining room so that's pretty much immobile. Plumbing, electrical and gas are easy and it's not like I'm not pulling up the subfloor anyway. Luckily everyone is trained that dishes go from the table to the dishwasher, not to hang out for days on a countertop or in a sink to fill up with water.

My wife thought of making a tiered peninsula / island but that reminds me of my parent's kitchen from the '70s, and immediately behind it is a round breakfast area table so there isn't really a point to adding seating right next to more seating.

I think there's close to 5 feet from cabinet to peninsula/island. I'm at work and don't have access to the model but thanks, I'll have to look into it when I get home. The little countertop was the result of having 1 foot left when I made the very first model. I should probably eliminate it and upsize the cabinets. The one caveat is that that space prevents the door from the built in fridge from swinging too much into the entry hall. It's not like that door will just sit there open all day long though, and I do see a small countertop at the end becoming a dumping ground for mail and things...

I'm totally up for changing the peninsula into an island BTW. I'm just not sure how much space would be required between that and a cabinet/wall behind it or how much space would be eaten up between the columns and the other end of the island. Both rooms are large, so everything still looks proportional.

Two part update - first the wall. I think this part may be just about done. Thoughts?





I got rid of the small countertop to the right of the fridge, bumped it all over and used the space at the other end of the wall. Now there's storage and the microwave and oven aren't against the wall. The cabinets go from left to right, 15, 30", 18", 36" for the cooktop, two 24", then 48" for a built in fridge. The upper frame is 1 1/4" - I added it to try and give the area a bit of depth.

And the peninsula/island... this is how the nearby area is currently used. It's 15 x 10 feet.


Today I modeled a peninsula. On the kitchen side from the wall heading out it has an 18" cabinet, 1 24" cabinet, 36" cabinet for the sink, dishwasher, and a 36" cabinet with a warming drawer and two wide drawers below it. Facing the room it has three 24" cabinets, one 30" cabinet, and a wine chiller. The countertop measures 11'8" x 4'8" wraps down to the floor, and there is 9'2" between the peninsula and the wall.





I'm still debating a peninsula vs. island, but I ran into one small problem.

The outline on the floor is a sectional and the tv is on the wall directly in front of it. It can't slide over to the right because I'm moving the door to the master bedroom (blue room with two windows) to that wall. Right now there is 6 feet between the peninsula and sectional. If I move part of the kitchen over any more it becomes a narrower passage that everyone has to walk around, or walk between the sectional and tv to get to the master bedroom.

So how is the whole peninsula vs. island question looking now? I'm almost tempted to shrink it just a bit, maybe by a foot or so? If I try for 36-42 inches between the wall and an island it's going to get really small unless the whole thing gets bumped over, and then traffic around the sectional and round table might become an issue?

[This message has been edited by The Fife (edited 6/29/2013 8:30p).]

FIFE,

I just wanted to say that you are the one person who has posted as remodel thread that didn't leave me thinking, "Wow they screwed the pooch on that"

Thanks!

Today I'm working on some of the details. The first is, I'm trying to figure out how far to extend the kitchen flooring. Maybe in a straight line coming from the wall with the pillars, then going around the peninsula by a foot, and following it over to the other wall? Maybe the whole area in the blue room with the round table should have the same flooring as the kitchen, but the wall with the double door is not the same length as the peninsula is?

Also, lighting... I already know undercabinet lighting is a good thing, but what about the ceiling? There has to be something beyond basic can lights out there. I'm not sure how many either since the room has no exterior walls.

FWIW, I have considered doing something similar (in some ways) in my house. If you are going to have a bar/open area in front of your sink, it means that everyone will be able to see everything in or around your sink (dishes, soap, sponges, etc.). That is a non-starter in my house, but it may not be for you. Just something to consider.

The sink issue was my first thought, and I scrolled down looking to see how he was going to address it. I cannot tell you how many houses I looked at when shopping, where you walked into the great room and looked toward the kitchen, and looked at the sink. One house was so odd, the view from the kitchen sink was the front door. Plus there is a reason kitchen sinks have backsplashes. Without a backsplash, the floor on the opposite side of the sink becomes the backsplash.

People have to live in a house, dishes and glasses are going to happen.

Been working too much lately to really sit down and comment, but a few quick thoughts:

1. I'd try and keep consistent cabinet sizes. Having so many different width wall and base cabinets may look odd.

2. Move the wine cooler to the kitchen side. If you're going to pay for some sexy walnut millwork, you'll want to see it and not a wine cooler.

3. Keep flooring consisent if possible. There's not a good way to break those spaces apart. If you have to, break it at the old wall line.


RE: lighting. Can lights over your work surfaces spaced according to the bulbs you select will work fine. If you go to a lighting supply house, they'll be able to help you come up with a sound layout based on whoever's fixtures they pimp.

I'd planned on having different flooring for the kitchen vs. living room along the line the old wall is on now, but when the peninsula grew outward that became a little harder to do. Altogether kitchen + entry hall + family room = about 1,050 square feet. That's a whole lot of some kind of flooring. Taking the family room out leaves only 375.

Wood may be a challenge because I'd be guaranteed to have hardwood from other areas intersecting at a 90 degree angle, and I'm nervous about having wood in a wet area. The entry hall leads towards the kitchen, and I'd planned on there being a more durable surface in there. There's stone but that's a LOT of stone to put in and I've never tried a flooring that hard in an area like a family room. I'm stumped on this one.

There is space for a low backsplash without screwing up the wraparound look on the side, but there's 30 inches of countertop behind the sink. We had about 18 in our last house without water getting all over... we also got lucky and everyone learned pretty fast to put the dirty dishes immediately in the dishwasher. The option is there though.

I was going to try and model flooring and a few other things but have been busy trying to drum up leads for a friend who just got laid off. He's trying to stay in the Charleston area but that may be tough.

So this is how the kitchen remodel started.

It's a tape measure and a level I got at Harbor Freight. The floor is level, but there's a strange low spot in the middle. In a 5 foot span it dips 3/4 of an inch.


Something is going on. We'd better get to the bottom of this.


Looks like the place had wood paneling in the 1950s. Someone did a decent job skim coating it so I can't see any reason to remove it and put up drywall instead.


The linoleum really ties it all together. No need to worry about asbestos in the backing because the chipboard comes up with the stuff.


Now we're getting somewhere. I can already see through the cracks on this one.


Not sure if I can repair this one - better replace it just to be safe. This is near the low spot. It's nice to find out that your floor is made of cardboard.


I bumped into the side and the top piece fell off. This is the worst rot in the room. That remaining 1/8" of wood securely fastens it to the beam and supports the load.


At the end of the day 2 new joists are in and most of the demo is done - not bad. I decided to get a head start on the kitchen and do the structural stuff on the empty half of the room before calling Habitat over to come and get everything. That way we'll get another week or so out of the appliances before the work really gets disruptive. It also gave me the chance to hire out a friend who lost his job last week for a day.

We haven't finished all the details for the kitchen yet, btw. I still need to get an order in for the cabinets and whatnot, settle the debate on flooring for this area and the blue room, order that and appliances. The cabinets have me a little worried... I have no clue what that will cost, but I have the same amount allocated for that as the rest of the room put together. I'm talking about material cost... if anyone has dealt with custom cabinets before I'd love to hear how right or far off I am with that.

This weekend I got a lot of work done, but not quite as much as I'd wanted to. I didn't buy enough lumber when I hit up the friendly neighborhood big box a few days ago.

I replaced all the joists to the right side of the center beam in the kitchen. I ran into a lot of stupidity down there - whoever notched the wood did it decades ago and only to two joists. If it was to install something there's no trace of it left behind so I'll never know. They took one down to 4"



On the next one over it was worse - a LOT worse.


I don't think it was broken all the way through until demo started. The home inspector completely missed it all somehow.



Things look a lot better by the end of the day. Right now the area is covered up with plywood. This week I'll change out one or two small joists on the left of the beam per day and then take down some of the trim so I'll be ready to give the cabinets and appliances to Habitat the following week.

As far as the design goes I'm still torn on flooring... I keep thinking that having two types of flooring would look strange since the border would not be a straight line. If I go with one type that's the same for the kitchen and family room, a light color wood (maple?) may go ok with walnut veneered cabinets? The windows face the southwest and the sun baked the cheap oak flooring where it's exposed to direct sun. I also plan on talking to a cabinet place or two that were recommended to see what that might actually cost but I'm prepared for those materials to run up to what the rest of the kitchen costs, put together. Does that sound about right?

Looking good!

On the millwork, the largest factor will be what material you choose. Millwork pricing can vary wildly from stock laminates to solid faced exotics. I've never bought any VG walnut, so I don't have any idea on costs.

Why can't you just break the flooring at the center line of your old wall?

If the only reason you don't want wood in your kitchen is because it's a "wet" area, I wouldn't let that deter you. As long as you don't have any major issues with plumbing, you won't have any more problem with wood in the kitchen than anywhere else. Are you still leaning heated tile?

Thanks! I was interested in heated stone... I've installed it a few times and was looking forward to it since the tile that's in there now is cold in winter, but since the peninsula extends about 2 feet beyond where the (former exterior) kitchen wall is I can no longer follow that line. One option presented by a designer was to have the kitchen flooring follow where the wall is now, then jog around the peninsula about as far as a seat would go but that still may look a bit odd. I've never been able to find a picture where anyone has done it before. I've also been reluctant to put stone in such a large living area because of the usual reasons people suggest not doing it.

Now that I've been able to find more pictures of modern kitchens with walnut / darker cabinets and lighter colored wood flooring I've been getting more open to the idea. I thought the flooring and cabinets might clash badly. What the flooring and peninsula coming out into the living room some is really going to do is force me to finish the design and rework in there sooner rather than later. This stuff kind of snowballs on you I guess.

If you end up with 2 different flooring finishes, just kill it into the side of the peninsula. It will look just fine.

Looking good.


Really liking the stereo. Circa 1995?

~egon

With the countertop coming down the side of the peninsula, wouldn't that look a little odd?

Close guess with the stereo (1992). I keep it around for the tape deck so I can run an ipod through it.

I'm putting in about an hour of demo this evening. The rotten wood is a horrible irritant and if not washed off regularly leaves a rash like poison ivy. I'll be glad when it's gone.

I've been a little busy this week because of a problem with a huge slash pine, but I have managed to get in another 3 joists. That's not too interesting, except for how awful the old stuff that came out was.


One was broken, the next one might as well have been. The wood at the end of the hallway and beyond was replaced within the last 10 years and is in good shape. No worries there.

Rule #1 on the pine tree. I can sister in new rafters but roofing is not my specialty. Since it's only a 6x6 area I may have to learn it though.

Sorry to hear about the battle with nature. The beam replacement is looking good though.

Why is there a switch on the rafters in your latest picture? Crawl down there for some "me" time or what?

~egon

Me time down there would probably lead to a tetanus shot. It leads to a couple of lights that date back to the original construction. The wire coming out from the switch is cut, uncapped and hot. It probably goes to an outlet in the kitchen and I can disconnect it there and pull it all out. I've also found a couple of abandoned 240V runs but they're not live.

If I can get this area done I can measure and cut plywood and throw it down with a few screws at least. I don't want to seal off the floor completely because after the structural stuff is done an electrician and gas fitter will be able to work a lot faster if they have better access. I have no clue how long contracting all this out would take, but I'm trying to wrap this room up by September or so.

Incremental update - I'm one joist away from finishing up this area of the kitchen. Because part of the room had a center beam that puts us at being finished with half of the joists. It's time to call Habitat and see about getting on their schedule to come get the cabinets and appliances. I'm keeping the fridge and microwave for a rental and the sink for a while until the new one is in.

In the mean time, tomorrow the dehumidifier will arrive and I need to put in the circuit and breaker for it already. That'll be up and running by evening. Otherwise until the kitchen goes away I can only do small stuff like size up some of the subfloor, put in blocking and pull molding. The overall gameplan is

Kitchen goes away
Structural stuff + move arched doorway
Remove wall
Electrical, plumbing, gas
Put in cabinets (on top of spacers) and appliances
Remove flooring from the family room and take care of structural stuff there
New flooring goes in
Countertops

Just an observation, but what do you think about a seating area in front of the island? You could hang some nice MR-16's from above? Nice waterfall counter top!