TexasRebel said:

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That doesn't refute Georgia. Georgia was correct. The data exists.

It may not be the data you wanted.

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Perhaps data is not your thing then. Bless your heart.

Good timing on a email from Tesla today:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Logos Stick said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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No need to hypothesize. The data is already out there.

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You're right. Data is here and he appears to be correct about that. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9996345/

It does cause complacency.

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That study was in 2023. It also is done with "FSD beta".

Let me make sure I understand the theory. Complacency causes a person to stomp the accelerator and hold it fully down in a 30 MPH residential neighborhood until crashing into a house. I don't see that in the study. I guess I missed it.

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The claim was:
" a person driving who is aware they are in control of the vehicle is less prone to this mistake than a person driving while assuming the vehicle can take care of itself."

The study supports this, and you've provided nothing to refute it.

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FSD did not result in higher reports of complacency. The opposite was true. Respondents claimed that they were more ready to take over from the vehicle, because they understood it was a work in progress software.

It's really surprising how many times these threads have people posting "research" without actually reading it.

Call me crazy as well, but I think a study conducted on human behavior based upon a self assessment of 82 people is pretty worthless in drawing conclusions.

What you can conclude is that absent the human action in this instance the car would not have ended up in someone's living room. The software did not do that, the human did. You can also conclude, based upon historical events, that FSD is not necessary for a human to depress the accelerator in error.

This incident occurred in China. Driver made the claim that the car accelerated on its own and he tried to stop it. Investigations concluded that the driver confused the accelerator for the brake and caused the acceleration. An argument that the capacity for bad driving by humans is often underestimated by those that claim automated driving systems can't improve safety.

Now post some direct quotes from the participants.

On a software that does not exist any more.

Point of my post is that the "data" is largely irrelevant and the conclusion of the event is the human caused the accident, and the action they took occurs in people with and without autonomous driving systems.

…more often with.

Completely baseless assertion.

Quote:

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And in the meantime, common sense and available data agree that a person who is manually driving pays more attention than a person who only needs to supervise.

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I don't agree with this at all, especially since it's situationally dependent.

For example, as GeorgiAg mentioned he can eat with two hands and maintain attention. A driver eating and driving manually must try and two do things at once, and maintain control of the wheel.

In that situation the driver is inherently safer under FSD.

Shifting gears in traffic while eating a chorizo egg & cheese breakfast taco is quite the balancing act, especially in one of the smallest vehicles on the road

What if mama was a looker and papa never hit the breaks and he was shifting gears?

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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And in the meantime, common sense and available data agree that a person who is manually driving pays more attention than a person who only needs to supervise.

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I don't agree with this at all, especially since it's situationally dependent.

For example, as GeorgiAg mentioned he can eat with two hands and maintain attention. A driver eating and driving manually must try and two do things at once, and maintain control of the wheel.

In that situation the driver is inherently safer under FSD.

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Why are you eating when you should be supervising?

An attentive driver will have better reaction times than a driver who is doing something else.

hph6203 said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Logos Stick said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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No need to hypothesize. The data is already out there.

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You're right. Data is here and he appears to be correct about that. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9996345/

It does cause complacency.

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That study was in 2023. It also is done with "FSD beta".

Let me make sure I understand the theory. Complacency causes a person to stomp the accelerator and hold it fully down in a 30 MPH residential neighborhood until crashing into a house. I don't see that in the study. I guess I missed it.

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The claim was:
" a person driving who is aware they are in control of the vehicle is less prone to this mistake than a person driving while assuming the vehicle can take care of itself."

The study supports this, and you've provided nothing to refute it.

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FSD did not result in higher reports of complacency. The opposite was true. Respondents claimed that they were more ready to take over from the vehicle, because they understood it was a work in progress software.

It's really surprising how many times these threads have people posting "research" without actually reading it.

Call me crazy as well, but I think a study conducted on human behavior based upon a self assessment of 82 people is pretty worthless in drawing conclusions.

What you can conclude is that absent the human action in this instance the car would not have ended up in someone's living room. The software did not do that, the human did. You can also conclude, based upon historical events, that FSD is not necessary for a human to depress the accelerator in error.

This incident occurred in China. Driver made the claim that the car accelerated on its own and he tried to stop it. Investigations concluded that the driver confused the accelerator for the brake and caused the acceleration. An argument that the capacity for bad driving by humans is often underestimated by those that claim automated driving systems can't improve safety.

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Georgia already proved my entire point, but thank you for helping drive it home.

A driver who trusts the car to handle the driving task is more likely to eat, watch baseball, etc than a driver who needs to focus on the driving task at hand. That's exactly what the study said. The whole value of the software is to make this increased level of distraction both possible and safer.

TexasRebel said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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And in the meantime, common sense and available data agree that a person who is manually driving pays more attention than a person who only needs to supervise.

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I don't agree with this at all, especially since it's situationally dependent.

For example, as GeorgiAg mentioned he can eat with two hands and maintain attention. A driver eating and driving manually must try and two do things at once, and maintain control of the wheel.

In that situation the driver is inherently safer under FSD.

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Why are you eating when you should be supervising?

An attentive driver will have better reaction times than a driver who is doing something else.

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Why do people regularly eat while driving ICE vehicles? It's a common thing to do regardless of vehicle type.

That is not what that study says about driving behavior. It says that the FSD drivers exhibited no additional complacency (0%) and exerted more attention while using the software on the average.

hph6203 said:

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That is not what that study says about driving behavior. It says that the FSD drivers exhibited no additional complacency (0%) and exerted more attention while using the software on the average.

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I'm going to save you some time and frustration. That poster does not debate in good faith. He will simply claim it supports something regardless of what it actually says, and he will not read it in its entirety. He will shift and dodge questions, and then shift to a different point on a whim. All in an effort to troll and frustrate you. It's his MO and he did the same on other topics like the Ukraine/Russia threads. Just a heads up.

Let me help you again...


JX:
"This same accident happens all the time no matter what car brand or function. It has nothing to do with the machine, it has to do with a human pressing down on the gas pedal, which all cars have, when they don't intend to."

Rebel:
"I'll hypothesize that a person driving who is aware they are in control of the vehicle is less prone to this mistake than a person driving while assuming the vehicle can take care of itself."


GeorgiAg:
No need to hypothesize. The data is already out there.




You then post a study attempting to "refute" Georgia since he was obviously refuting the troll. You obviously don't understand the claim. Pride comes before a fall.

hph6203 said:

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That is not what that study says about driving behavior. It says that the FSD drivers exhibited no additional complacency (0%) and exerted more attention while using the software on the average.

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You are one of the posters I would've expected to know the difference between autopilot and FSD.

"It was found that drivers became complacent over time with Autopilot engaged, failing to monitor the system, and engaging in safety-critical behaviors, such as hands-free driving, enabled by weights placed on the steering wheel, mind wandering, or sleeping behind the wheel. Drivers' movement of eyes, hands, and feet became more relaxed with experience with Autopilot engaged."

No, the data supports my hypothesis.
Just reading that shows most Tesla owners in the sample are terrible drivers who are trying to do anything except drive while driving.

TexasRebel said:

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No, the data supports my hypothesis.
Just reading that shows most Tesla owners in the sample are terrible drivers who are trying to do anything except drive while driving.

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Not only do you not understand the study and data, now you are throwing out strawmen.

And if it's just Tesla drivers in that sample, on what basis do you claim that a person - using a vehicle that is supposed to take care of itself - is more likely to stomp on the accelerator, hold it there, and never apply the brake until it crashes?

Logos Stick said:

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Even more reason to buy a Tesla.

This thread has nothing to do with data and analysis anymore. You have a number of disingenuous posters that are trolling because they don't like the EV fanboys. Most don't like me other - even though I'm not an EV fanboy - I just prefer data, facts, logic and rational analysis.

The @Tesla Model 3 and Model Y have just been named the #1 and #2 Most American-Made vehicles for 2026 by https://t.co/8eBlPTqKpL. This includes EVs & Gas cars🇺🇸

This is the sixth year in a row that Tesla has claimed the most American-made vehicle. pic.twitter.com/rFtnaC1Urz

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) June 23, 2026

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I see you and raise you the fact that Teslas depreciate faster than any car out there. If I could realistically buy a used one I will but have too many mini clones to drag around so it's Honda Odyssey for the next 15 years.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/cars-with-the-fastest-depreciation

Teslag said:

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hph6203 said:

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That is not what that study says about driving behavior. It says that the FSD drivers exhibited no additional complacency (0%) and exerted more attention while using the software on the average.

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I'm going to save you some time and frustration. That poster does not debate in good faith. He will simply claim it supports something regardless of what it actually says, and he will not read it in its entirety. He will shift and dodge questions, and then shift to a different point on a whim. All in an effort to troll and frustrate you. It's his MO and he did the same on other topics like the Ukraine/Russia threads. Just a heads up.

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The bad faith argument here belongs to HPH. He's trying to use what the study said about FSD and ignoring what the study said about autopilot, when the autopilot portion is the only relevant portion for this specific accident, because autopilot (not FSD) was engaged.

PDEMDHC said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Even more reason to buy a Tesla.

This thread has nothing to do with data and analysis anymore. You have a number of disingenuous posters that are trolling because they don't like the EV fanboys. Most don't like me other - even though I'm not an EV fanboy - I just prefer data, facts, logic and rational analysis.

The @Tesla Model 3 and Model Y have just been named the #1 and #2 Most American-Made vehicles for 2026 by https://t.co/8eBlPTqKpL. This includes EVs & Gas cars🇺🇸

This is the sixth year in a row that Tesla has claimed the most American-made vehicle. pic.twitter.com/rFtnaC1Urz

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) June 23, 2026

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I see you and raise you the fact that Teslas depreciate faster than any car out there. If I could realistically buy a used one I will but have too many mini clones to drag around so it's Honda Odyssey for the next 15 years.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/cars-with-the-fastest-depreciation

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They also have more recalls last I checked.

Let me help you again...


JX:
"This same accident happens all the time no matter what car brand or function. It has nothing to do with the machine, it has to do with a human pressing down on the gas pedal, which all cars have, when they don't intend to."

Rebel:
"I'll hypothesize that a person driving who is aware they are in control of the vehicle is less prone to this mistake than a person driving while assuming the vehicle can take care of itself."


GeorgiAg:
No need to hypothesize. The data is already out there.




You then post a study attempting to "refute" Georgia since he was obviously refuting the troll. You obviously don't understand the claim. Pride comes before a fall.

techno-ag said:

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PDEMDHC said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Even more reason to buy a Tesla.

This thread has nothing to do with data and analysis anymore. You have a number of disingenuous posters that are trolling because they don't like the EV fanboys. Most don't like me other - even though I'm not an EV fanboy - I just prefer data, facts, logic and rational analysis.

The @Tesla Model 3 and Model Y have just been named the #1 and #2 Most American-Made vehicles for 2026 by https://t.co/8eBlPTqKpL. This includes EVs & Gas cars🇺🇸

This is the sixth year in a row that Tesla has claimed the most American-made vehicle. pic.twitter.com/rFtnaC1Urz

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) June 23, 2026

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I see you and raise you the fact that Teslas depreciate faster than any car out there. If I could realistically buy a used one I will but have too many mini clones to drag around so it's Honda Odyssey for the next 15 years.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/cars-with-the-fastest-depreciation

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They also have more recalls last I checked.

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There ya go techno.... now you are actually contributing something instead of just starring the troll.

To be fair those 2022 models skew the data a bit. Their sale price as new were much higher than what they are now.

We bought a 2022 Model Y Performance for $68k from Tesla. A 2026 Model Y Performance is now $58k.

The only other option in 2022 was the Model Y Long Range and it was about $58k. It's now $49, with entry trims at $39k.

I'd be willing to bet recent models have held value fairly well.

techno-ag said:

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PDEMDHC said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Even more reason to buy a Tesla.

This thread has nothing to do with data and analysis anymore. You have a number of disingenuous posters that are trolling because they don't like the EV fanboys. Most don't like me other - even though I'm not an EV fanboy - I just prefer data, facts, logic and rational analysis.

The @Tesla Model 3 and Model Y have just been named the #1 and #2 Most American-Made vehicles for 2026 by https://t.co/8eBlPTqKpL. This includes EVs & Gas cars🇺🇸

This is the sixth year in a row that Tesla has claimed the most American-made vehicle. pic.twitter.com/rFtnaC1Urz

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) June 23, 2026

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I see you and raise you the fact that Teslas depreciate faster than any car out there. If I could realistically buy a used one I will but have too many mini clones to drag around so it's Honda Odyssey for the next 15 years.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/cars-with-the-fastest-depreciation

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They also have more recalls last I checked.

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Is this that bit where you count over the air fixes as "recalls"?

PDEMDHC said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Even more reason to buy a Tesla.

This thread has nothing to do with data and analysis anymore. You have a number of disingenuous posters that are trolling because they don't like the EV fanboys. Most don't like me other - even though I'm not an EV fanboy - I just prefer data, facts, logic and rational analysis.

The @Tesla Model 3 and Model Y have just been named the #1 and #2 Most American-Made vehicles for 2026 by https://t.co/8eBlPTqKpL. This includes EVs & Gas cars🇺🇸

This is the sixth year in a row that Tesla has claimed the most American-made vehicle. pic.twitter.com/rFtnaC1Urz

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) June 23, 2026

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I see you and raise you the fact that Teslas depreciate faster than any car out there. If I could realistically buy a used one I will but have too many mini clones to drag around so it's Honda Odyssey for the next 15 years.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/cars-with-the-fastest-depreciation

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I see you and raise you the fact that the article says 2022 Tesla Model S in 2026.

Does it apply to all Tesla models from all years? If so, ok. I'm not looking it up.

Clarified it with the 2022 models in a post above. We got bit by one and lost our ass when we got our 26.

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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PDEMDHC said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Even more reason to buy a Tesla.

This thread has nothing to do with data and analysis anymore. You have a number of disingenuous posters that are trolling because they don't like the EV fanboys. Most don't like me other - even though I'm not an EV fanboy - I just prefer data, facts, logic and rational analysis.

The @Tesla Model 3 and Model Y have just been named the #1 and #2 Most American-Made vehicles for 2026 by https://t.co/8eBlPTqKpL. This includes EVs & Gas cars🇺🇸

This is the sixth year in a row that Tesla has claimed the most American-made vehicle. pic.twitter.com/rFtnaC1Urz

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) June 23, 2026

---

I see you and raise you the fact that Teslas depreciate faster than any car out there. If I could realistically buy a used one I will but have too many mini clones to drag around so it's Honda Odyssey for the next 15 years.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/cars-with-the-fastest-depreciation

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They also have more recalls last I checked.

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Is this that bit where you count over the air fixes as "recalls"?

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What does the Dept. of Transportation call them?

Ford had the most recalls in 2025, and currently leads in 2026.

I don't think you're comprehending what you've bolded.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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hph6203 said:

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That is not what that study says about driving behavior. It says that the FSD drivers exhibited no additional complacency (0%) and exerted more attention while using the software on the average.

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I'm going to save you some time and frustration. That poster does not debate in good faith. He will simply claim it supports something regardless of what it actually says, and he will not read it in its entirety. He will shift and dodge questions, and then shift to a different point on a whim. All in an effort to troll and frustrate you. It's his MO and he did the same on other topics like the Ukraine/Russia threads. Just a heads up.

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The bad faith argument here belongs to HPH. He's trying to use what the study said about FSD and ignoring what the study said about autopilot, when the autopilot portion is the only relevant portion for this specific accident, because autopilot (not FSD) was engaged.

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Confusion on the part of posters and media about what software was being used is not bad faith on my part, it's inattentiveness to detail on the part of others.

This is the AI lead at Tesla responding to the claim and clarifying what occurred, driver override of the system. He says it was self driving, not autopilot. Autopilot as a branding no longer exists for Tesla and the software for FSD was entirely rewritten between the time of that study (Feb-June 2022) so the modern software does not align with the experiences in the report.

Musk also refers to the software being used as FSD.

It is not bad faith to be accurate. My accurate opinion is that study is entirely based upon self reports of a very small population of users (82) on a software that no longer exists. In other words entirely irrelevant. Contained within the references are other studies that suggest conflicting results, some saying more attention, some concluding less attention, by drivers utilizing driver assistance software.

Yup. In this case, the driver manually overrode self-driving by pressing the accelerator all the way to 100% of the accel pedal in this residential area. They reached a speed of 73 mph during the crash, and had the accelerator pressed even after the crash.

— Ashok Elluswamy (@aelluswamy) June 22, 2026

Logos Stick said:

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TexasRebel said:

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No, the data supports my hypothesis.
Just reading that shows most Tesla owners in the sample are terrible drivers who are trying to do anything except drive while driving.

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Not only do you not understand the study and data, now you are throwing out strawmen.

And if it's just Tesla drivers in that sample, on what basis do you claim that a person - using a vehicle that is supposed to take care of itself - is more likely to stomp on the accelerator, hold it there, and never apply the brake until it crashes?

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Because they've no idea where the unused controls are in relation to their feet.

Can they prove it wasn't a foreign object instead of the occupant's foot?

Freedom loving conservatives on Texags opposed to regulation demanding controls on Tesla's FSD software.

Regulators in high regulatory burden countries looking to accelerate its approval for use. I'm sure it's as dangerous as the freedom loving individuals say and there's no ulterior motive/delusion happening.

Finland may approve @Tesla's FSD earlier than a European Union-wide decision expected in October, the country's transport ​authority said today.

"The system is considered to have significant potential to reduce accidents caused by human factors and to make traffic flow more… pic.twitter.com/hVMZrlchiY

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) June 23, 2026