The Debt said:

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BrazosDog02 said:

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The Debt said:

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Arrakis ecologist said:

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Why is the troll assuming "arming teachers " mean we arm ALL of them. That is stupidly obtuse. Arm the ones that want to and have them show a training course, just like they have training in math or science.

---

Because when you open up the floodgates, many teachers will start carrying.

15 dead is a horrific tragedy, but I would assert there would be dozens of accidental discharges per year resulting in fatalities.

You people dont realize the scope of proliferation. How many schools, how many teachers, how many students, how many bullets...

The cure you are proposing is going to cause more deaths than the disease.

The number of accidents is one thing. I have seen teachers assault students in class. Provoked or not, teachers fly off the handle.

---

No. This is false. This is not what any data shows. There are millions of LTC Holders right now all around you in almost all aspects of your life. The AD debate is a farce. I would submit that you either allow everyone to arm themselves as they wish, which is what I do. I'm armed almost all the time and I care not about signage. Either that, or take everyone with a mental illness and encourage them to blow their brains out JN their backyard so we don't make their problem someone else's nightmare.

---

Dont get me wrong. I'm an open carry advocate. I think concealed carry is nonsense because it fails to act as a deterrent.

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agsalaska said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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histag10 said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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histag10 said:

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Employees and students on TAMUs campus are allowed to carry. Maybe I have missed the news, but I haven't seen any insane rise in accidental discharges on campus. And the crazy part- many of those people have BAs and BSs in things that would qualify them to teach elementary

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I don't think many of us have an issue with adults carrying guns around adults.

It's adults carrying guns around large numbers of children that make no mistake think that gun is really cool and want to see it.

Not every kid is raised to respect a firearm.

---

So maybe concealed carry, where the kid doesn't see the gun or think it's something they can see?

---

I just think for the gun to actually be in a truly secure spot in the classroom, it's going to remove much of it's effectiveness when a guy walks into the classroom with his gun already pulled.

Would it be effective if say the teacher heard something over the intercom or way down the hall. Sure. But so would reinforced doors with heavy duty locks -- and those don't pose a risk to the children.

---

Concealed carry is, by far, the most secure place to put a firearm in any situation or scenario.

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Proposition Joe said:

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agsalaska said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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agsalaska said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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agsalaska said:

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45-70Ag said:

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I'm a high school assistant principal at a fairly large school with 2,600 students. The building has approximately 32 entrances and this kind of thing is worrisome. We are fortunate enough that the district spent the money for doors to lock and are only unlocked by someone viewing a camera at a door in the front office.

We have enough coaches and other people who shoot that should the school board decide to arm those who qualify…..I'd have no issue with it.

---

Qualify is the key word.

And I am not exactly sure what that looks like. But I would have no issue with it either.

---

Columbine it would have made a difference. I don't recall the details of Sandy Hook though -- was it a long drawn out ordeal?

In a case like this, you could have 5-6 armed teachers and it wouldn't matter once the nutjob gets into a classroom and shuts the door.

If we're not regulating the weapon (which again I'm not opining on), then the only real solution to prevention is going above and beyond securing any and all access points to the school and unfortunately that's a very expensive thing to do. (And didn't we have one of these nutjobs pick people off outside the school one time?)

Oh, and all of this also assuming it's not a student -- who is permitted access to the school -- isn't the perp.

---

If memory serves me right, they would have had a chance to stop him at Sandy Hook at the office where he broke in. But they needed to be quick. Clearly could have stopped him at Columbine and in Florida.

---

Is the idea that these elementary school teachers are going to have holstered guns in the classroom while teaching?

Because otherwise it likely isn't going to matter in a lot of instances. When a guy walks into your classroom with a gun you aren't going to have any opportunity to get your key out and go to your secure gun lock box and arm yourself. I'd put the chances of being able to prevent a tragedy in that scenario is actually far less than a tragic accident happening with 100,000 unruly kids across the nation being a misplaced key away from playing show and tell with the firearm.

Teachers being armed just isn't the solution. It's not their job, and their attention is divided a thousand different ways in every hour of the school day. Putting a deadly weapon in that environment is just not smart.

If the answer is armed populace at schools, then it needs to be armed populace at the school whose sole job it is to protect the school -- security guards.

---

Like I said in the beginning I dont know exactly what it looks like.

You probably don't carry a gun, but having your attention pulled a thousand different ways isnt an issue for people who carry every day and have training.

But the solution certainly isn't like you describe it, no way the answer is a lock box. I agree.

The answer, if we arm teachers, is most certainly a holstered, concealed firearm carried by teachers and administrators that go through some fairly rigorous training of some kind.

There is no doubt thought that it would have to be a balanced risk and an accident would eventually happen, just like they happen in all situations with firearms.

It also eliminates the 'soft target'

---

I just think you or I's attention being pulled a thousand different way while we're hammering out an Excel Spreadsheet or sitting in church is magnitudes different than a teacher who has 25 kids in their classroom.

Trying to make educators armed protectors just doesn't make sense.

Spend the money to hire trained, armed protectors if that's what you want and leave the educators to educate.

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P.U.T.U said:

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I have shot for years but I will admit that my girl is a naturally better shooter than me, lots of pilots in her family and it comes naturally to her.

But this is a static environment, when something is shooting back at you everything changes

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TheEternalPessimist said:

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agsalaska said:

---

Proposition Joe said:

---

histag10 said:

---

Proposition Joe said:

---

histag10 said:

---

Employees and students on TAMUs campus are allowed to carry. Maybe I have missed the news, but I haven't seen any insane rise in accidental discharges on campus. And the crazy part- many of those people have BAs and BSs in things that would qualify them to teach elementary

---

I don't think many of us have an issue with adults carrying guns around adults.

It's adults carrying guns around large numbers of children that make no mistake think that gun is really cool and want to see it.

Not every kid is raised to respect a firearm.

---

So maybe concealed carry, where the kid doesn't see the gun or think it's something they can see?

---

I just think for the gun to actually be in a truly secure spot in the classroom, it's going to remove much of it's effectiveness when a guy walks into the classroom with his gun already pulled.

Would it be effective if say the teacher heard something over the intercom or way down the hall. Sure. But so would reinforced doors with heavy duty locks -- and those don't pose a risk to the children.

---

Concealed carry is, by far, the most secure place to put a firearm in any situation or scenario.

---

The visual (open carry) and non-visual (uncertainty about who else is conceal carry) are both great deterrents.

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Proposition Joe said:

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agsalaska said:

---

Proposition Joe said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Proposition Joe said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

45-70Ag said:

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I'm a high school assistant principal at a fairly large school with 2,600 students. The building has approximately 32 entrances and this kind of thing is worrisome. We are fortunate enough that the district spent the money for doors to lock and are only unlocked by someone viewing a camera at a door in the front office.

We have enough coaches and other people who shoot that should the school board decide to arm those who qualify…..I'd have no issue with it.

---

Qualify is the key word.

And I am not exactly sure what that looks like. But I would have no issue with it either.

---

Columbine it would have made a difference. I don't recall the details of Sandy Hook though -- was it a long drawn out ordeal?

In a case like this, you could have 5-6 armed teachers and it wouldn't matter once the nutjob gets into a classroom and shuts the door.

If we're not regulating the weapon (which again I'm not opining on), then the only real solution to prevention is going above and beyond securing any and all access points to the school and unfortunately that's a very expensive thing to do. (And didn't we have one of these nutjobs pick people off outside the school one time?)

Oh, and all of this also assuming it's not a student -- who is permitted access to the school -- isn't the perp.

---

If memory serves me right, they would have had a chance to stop him at Sandy Hook at the office where he broke in. But they needed to be quick. Clearly could have stopped him at Columbine and in Florida.

---

Is the idea that these elementary school teachers are going to have holstered guns in the classroom while teaching?

Because otherwise it likely isn't going to matter in a lot of instances. When a guy walks into your classroom with a gun you aren't going to have any opportunity to get your key out and go to your secure gun lock box and arm yourself. I'd put the chances of being able to prevent a tragedy in that scenario is actually far less than a tragic accident happening with 100,000 unruly kids across the nation being a misplaced key away from playing show and tell with the firearm.

Teachers being armed just isn't the solution. It's not their job, and their attention is divided a thousand different ways in every hour of the school day. Putting a deadly weapon in that environment is just not smart.

If the answer is armed populace at schools, then it needs to be armed populace at the school whose sole job it is to protect the school -- security guards.

---

Like I said in the beginning I dont know exactly what it looks like.

You probably don't carry a gun, but having your attention pulled a thousand different ways isnt an issue for people who carry every day and have training.

But the solution certainly isn't like you describe it, no way the answer is a lock box. I agree.

The answer, if we arm teachers, is most certainly a holstered, concealed firearm carried by teachers and administrators that go through some fairly rigorous training of some kind.

There is no doubt thought that it would have to be a balanced risk and an accident would eventually happen, just like they happen in all situations with firearms.

It also eliminates the 'soft target'

---

I just think you or I's attention being pulled a thousand different way while we're hammering out an Excel Spreadsheet or sitting in church is magnitudes different than a teacher who has 25 kids in their classroom.

Trying to make educators armed protectors just doesn't make sense.

Spend the money to hire trained, armed protectors if that's what you want and leave the educators to educate.

---

larry culpepper said:

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Rockdoc said:

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And it's already started. The politicians are using this to push their agenda. Time to turn off the TV.

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These comments bother me because they come off as so sanctimonious. There's nothing wrong with being upset by a horrible tragedy and wanting to prevent it in the future. The right does it too (e.g. saying we need armed guards in schools). It's a completely natural response to a horrible event like this. And whether you like it or not, people do care about this.

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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

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I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

---

I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

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The Debt said:

---

baron_von_awesome said:

---

The Debt said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

The Debt said:

---

Arrakis ecologist said:

---

Why is the troll assuming "arming teachers " mean we arm ALL of them. That is stupidly obtuse. Arm the ones that want to and have them show a training course, just like they have training in math or science.

---

Because when you open up the floodgates, many teachers will start carrying.

15 dead is a horrific tragedy, but I would assert there would be dozens of accidental discharges per year resulting in fatalities.

You people dont realize the scope of proliferation. How many schools, how many teachers, how many students, how many bullets...

The cure you are proposing is going to cause more deaths than the disease.

The number of accidents is one thing. I have seen teachers assault students in class. Provoked or not, teachers fly off the handle.

---

No. This is false. This is not what any data shows. There are millions of LTC Holders right now all around you in almost all aspects of your life. The AD debate is a farce. I would submit that you either allow everyone to arm themselves as they wish, which is what I do. I'm armed almost all the time and I care not about signage. Either that, or take everyone with a mental illness and encourage them to blow their brains out JN their backyard so we don't make their problem someone else's nightmare.

---

Dont get me wrong. I'm an open carry advocate. I think concealed carry is nonsense because it fails to act as a deterrent.

---

What you think does not matter, show us the data.

---

There have been plenty of criminology studies about this.

If a criminal walks into a denny's and sees 8 cops armed and eating, they bugger off. If the same criminal walks into the same Dennys and sees no resistance, there is an altercation.

If every responsible person open carried at dennys, the criminal would treat it like the instance with the 8 LEOs.

Armed societies are polite societies.

---

Proposition Joe said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Proposition Joe said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Proposition Joe said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

45-70Ag said:

---

I'm a high school assistant principal at a fairly large school with 2,600 students. The building has approximately 32 entrances and this kind of thing is worrisome. We are fortunate enough that the district spent the money for doors to lock and are only unlocked by someone viewing a camera at a door in the front office.

We have enough coaches and other people who shoot that should the school board decide to arm those who qualify…..I'd have no issue with it.

---

Qualify is the key word.

And I am not exactly sure what that looks like. But I would have no issue with it either.

---

Columbine it would have made a difference. I don't recall the details of Sandy Hook though -- was it a long drawn out ordeal?

In a case like this, you could have 5-6 armed teachers and it wouldn't matter once the nutjob gets into a classroom and shuts the door.

If we're not regulating the weapon (which again I'm not opining on), then the only real solution to prevention is going above and beyond securing any and all access points to the school and unfortunately that's a very expensive thing to do. (And didn't we have one of these nutjobs pick people off outside the school one time?)

Oh, and all of this also assuming it's not a student -- who is permitted access to the school -- isn't the perp.

---

If memory serves me right, they would have had a chance to stop him at Sandy Hook at the office where he broke in. But they needed to be quick. Clearly could have stopped him at Columbine and in Florida.

---

Is the idea that these elementary school teachers are going to have holstered guns in the classroom while teaching?

Because otherwise it likely isn't going to matter in a lot of instances. When a guy walks into your classroom with a gun you aren't going to have any opportunity to get your key out and go to your secure gun lock box and arm yourself. I'd put the chances of being able to prevent a tragedy in that scenario is actually far less than a tragic accident happening with 100,000 unruly kids across the nation being a misplaced key away from playing show and tell with the firearm.

Teachers being armed just isn't the solution. It's not their job, and their attention is divided a thousand different ways in every hour of the school day. Putting a deadly weapon in that environment is just not smart.

If the answer is armed populace at schools, then it needs to be armed populace at the school whose sole job it is to protect the school -- security guards.

---

Like I said in the beginning I dont know exactly what it looks like.

You probably don't carry a gun, but having your attention pulled a thousand different ways isnt an issue for people who carry every day and have training.

But the solution certainly isn't like you describe it, no way the answer is a lock box. I agree.

The answer, if we arm teachers, is most certainly a holstered, concealed firearm carried by teachers and administrators that go through some fairly rigorous training of some kind.

There is no doubt thought that it would have to be a balanced risk and an accident would eventually happen, just like they happen in all situations with firearms.

It also eliminates the 'soft target'

---

I just think you or I's attention being pulled a thousand different way while we're hammering out an Excel Spreadsheet or sitting in church is magnitudes different than a teacher who has 25 kids in their classroom.

Trying to make educators armed protectors just doesn't make sense.

Spend the money to hire trained, armed protectors if that's what you want and leave the educators to educate.

---

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

---

I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

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Rapier108 said:

---

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

---

I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

---

No one has said specifically, but the initial thought that he was an illegal was because the Border Patrol was on scene almost immediately.

While it is possible he is an illegal, everything known so far seems to say he is not.

---

Rapier108 said:

---

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

---

I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

---

No one has said specifically, but the initial thought that he was an illegal was because the Border Patrol was on scene almost immediately.

While it is possible he is an illegal, everything known so far seems to say he is not.

---

DallasAg 94 said:

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Jarrin' Jay said:

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Canyon99 said:

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The issue isn't guns. The issue is what caused this person to become so heartless that he could take the lives of 14 children and a teacher. We need to pray for the souls of the deceased and their loved ones.

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Yes and no. I own firearms and am against more gun regulation or control as that generally only hurts and restricts responsible gun owners. However, you need to realize and understand this is just part of the price we pay for living in a gun culture society / country. Mass shootings do not happen in any other 1st world country, Europe, Asia, etc. with any level of frequency other than the USA. I have never heard of a mass killing spree with a baseball bat, kitchen knife, tree trimmer, bowling ball, etc., etc., etc.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people, but guns make it much easier and efficient to do so.

T&P for all the victims and families affected. And I hope this P.O.S. is dead by the end of the month.

---

Here you go... in that 3rd world country... Norway.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-41678010

Quote:

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Far right extremist Breivik went on to kill 69 youngsters, 33 of whom were under the age of 18. In total, he murdered 77 people that day, including those in Oslo.

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---

Quote:

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Mass shootings do not happen in any other 1st world country, Europe, Asia, etc. with any level of frequency other than the USA.

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baron_von_awesome said:

---

The Debt said:

---

baron_von_awesome said:

---

The Debt said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

The Debt said:

---

Arrakis ecologist said:

---

Why is the troll assuming "arming teachers " mean we arm ALL of them. That is stupidly obtuse. Arm the ones that want to and have them show a training course, just like they have training in math or science.

---

Because when you open up the floodgates, many teachers will start carrying.

15 dead is a horrific tragedy, but I would assert there would be dozens of accidental discharges per year resulting in fatalities.

You people dont realize the scope of proliferation. How many schools, how many teachers, how many students, how many bullets...

The cure you are proposing is going to cause more deaths than the disease.

The number of accidents is one thing. I have seen teachers assault students in class. Provoked or not, teachers fly off the handle.

---

No. This is false. This is not what any data shows. There are millions of LTC Holders right now all around you in almost all aspects of your life. The AD debate is a farce. I would submit that you either allow everyone to arm themselves as they wish, which is what I do. I'm armed almost all the time and I care not about signage. Either that, or take everyone with a mental illness and encourage them to blow their brains out JN their backyard so we don't make their problem someone else's nightmare.

---

Dont get me wrong. I'm an open carry advocate. I think concealed carry is nonsense because it fails to act as a deterrent.

---

What you think does not matter, show us the data.

---

There have been plenty of criminology studies about this.

If a criminal walks into a denny's and sees 8 cops armed and eating, they bugger off. If the same criminal walks into the same Dennys and sees no resistance, there is an altercation.

If every responsible person open carried at dennys, the criminal would treat it like the instance with the 8 LEOs.

Armed societies are polite societies.

---

Show us the data that we would have "dozens" of accidental discharges and it would not be a deterrent to some.

---

The Debt said:

---

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

---

I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

---

If he was illegal, you will never hear about it.

---

Quote:

---

I wonder if he's connected to a gang/cartel.

---

The Debt said:

---

baron_von_awesome said:

---

The Debt said:

---

baron_von_awesome said:

---

The Debt said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

The Debt said:

---

Arrakis ecologist said:

---

Why is the troll assuming "arming teachers " mean we arm ALL of them. That is stupidly obtuse. Arm the ones that want to and have them show a training course, just like they have training in math or science.

---

Because when you open up the floodgates, many teachers will start carrying.

15 dead is a horrific tragedy, but I would assert there would be dozens of accidental discharges per year resulting in fatalities.

You people dont realize the scope of proliferation. How many schools, how many teachers, how many students, how many bullets...

The cure you are proposing is going to cause more deaths than the disease.

The number of accidents is one thing. I have seen teachers assault students in class. Provoked or not, teachers fly off the handle.

---

No. This is false. This is not what any data shows. There are millions of LTC Holders right now all around you in almost all aspects of your life. The AD debate is a farce. I would submit that you either allow everyone to arm themselves as they wish, which is what I do. I'm armed almost all the time and I care not about signage. Either that, or take everyone with a mental illness and encourage them to blow their brains out JN their backyard so we don't make their problem someone else's nightmare.

---

Dont get me wrong. I'm an open carry advocate. I think concealed carry is nonsense because it fails to act as a deterrent.

---

What you think does not matter, show us the data.

---

There have been plenty of criminology studies about this.

If a criminal walks into a denny's and sees 8 cops armed and eating, they bugger off. If the same criminal walks into the same Dennys and sees no resistance, there is an altercation.

If every responsible person open carried at dennys, the criminal would treat it like the instance with the 8 LEOs.

Armed societies are polite societies.

---

Show us the data that we would have "dozens" of accidental discharges and it would not be a deterrent to some.

---

Do your own research on accidental discharges.

"Cmon debt, why dont you have studies to confirm or deny hypotheticals that havent been done yet?"

---

P.U.T.U said:

---

There was a ND at a military base...yesterday

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histag10 said:

---

Rapier108 said:

---

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

---

I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

---

No one has said specifically, but the initial thought that he was an illegal was because the Border Patrol was on scene almost immediately.

While it is possible he is an illegal, everything known so far seems to say he is not.

---

I would imagine border patrol being there quickly because they have an office there and are trained federal law enforcement. To me, it's no different than DPS or even Game Warden showing up as one of the first LEs on scene.

---

Funky Winkerbean said:

---

The Debt said:

---

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

---

I've tried to keep up with the thread but may have missed it- has it been definitively established one way or the other this guy's immigration status? I heard he was "local", but that doesn't mean much. TIA.

---

If he was illegal, you will never hear about it.

---

I wonder if he's connected to a gang/cartel.

---