The Dog Lord said:

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powerbelly said:

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The Dog Lord said:

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The Debt said:

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Claude! said:

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YouBet said:

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The Debt said:

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Having not read past Dune (20 years ago), I dont understand the focus on the Kwisatch Haderach because the fremen focus on the Mahdi.

When Paul comes to full bloom as the Kwisatch Haderach he isnt what the Reverend Mother or the BG wanted....he is something beyond their grasp.
Yes he is the Kwisatch Haderach, but he is also something more.

DVs interpretation (saw it a 2nd time) makes the fremen myth just a reinterpretation of the BG myth...or rather the BG implanted the concept of the myth into the fremen mythos in order to aid in the fruition of a Kwisatch Haderach from their lands.

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There is quite a bit of this concept shared in the novel though. It's not just DV's interpretation.

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Yep. Kind of like how Finkle is Einhorn and Einhorn is Finkle, the Madhi is the Kwisatch Haderach and vice versa.

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But again, if he is the fruition of the BG plot, why is he hostile to the BG? Or rather why did the BG aid in the creation a monster they cannot control?

I think of it as competing religious orders (BG and fremen), both have the foretelling of a god-man, but the fremen hold the true religion.

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They didn't plan on Paul being the KH. Jessica was supposed to produce a daughter. I believe she may have trained Paul beyond what the BG expected as well which led the BG to test whether he was "human."

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All BG take the test of humanity. They tested him to see if he had the potential to be the KH

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But I don't think they would have needed to test Paul if Jessica had trained him so much, correct? I don't think they were expecting him to be trained up in BG ways which is why they weren't controlling over his upbringing. Once they found out he had been trained so much, they decided to test him. I may be making all of that up, but I could have sworn that was the explanation for why they weren't trying to control him sooner as a potential KH.

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Quad Dog said:

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Paul was the first, but eventually rejected it based on the future he saw. Leto II picked up the title, and fulfilled the prophesy, but not in the way the BG thought would happen.

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NE PA Ag said:

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Minor point because we all know what's being talked about, but it's Kwisatz Haderach, not Kwisatch.

Also, I thought Lynch's Alia was plenty creepy, but in a really awkward kind of way, especially when she used 'the voice'. The dubbing was horrible.

Finally, and this is getting well into the later books, but isn't Leto II the real Kwisatz Haderach?

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israeliag said:

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They said three navigators actually came. I believe there were five or six with the spiced filled helmets on, but three had staves. I'm assuming the ones carrying staves were legit navigators.

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Put me in the camp that says the navigators weren't shown and the guys in the spice helmets weren't full navigators. I seem to remember something about no one seeing a full navigator in person. Even the other members of the guild.

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Put me in the camp that says the navigators weren't shown and the guys in the spice helmets weren't full navigators. I seem to remember something about no one seeing a full navigator in person. Even the other members of the guild.

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schmendeler said:

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I just noticed this (I may be slow). Is that another planet being glimpsed through the guild ship? I didn't think they worked that way.

This is the Reverend mother's ship heading down to Caladan.

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TCTTS said:

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I kind of love the idea of the guild basically being the universe's Uber, capable of transporting entire fleets, and that's what the big, hallowed-out, cylindrical ships are. Shaped like that for whatever reason. But yeah, is it also possible that, say, every planet has a big, cylindrical structure in orbit, and each one is more like a portal/wormhole access point that the navigators somehow control?

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TCTTS said:

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I kind of love the idea of the guild basically being the universe's Uber, capable of transporting entire fleets, and that's what the big, hallowed-out, cylindrical ships are. Shaped like that for whatever reason. But yeah, is it also possible that, say, every planet has a big, cylindrical structure in orbit, and each one is more like a portal/wormhole access point that the navigators somehow control?

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TCTTS said:

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I kind of love the idea of the guild basically being the universe's Uber, capable of transporting entire fleets, and that's what the big, hallowed-out, cylindrical ships are. Shaped like that for whatever reason. But yeah, is it also possible that, say, every planet has a big, cylindrical structure in orbit, and each one is more like a portal/wormhole access point that the navigators somehow control?

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Ok, I think I finally get the subtle way they incorporated the concept of folding space in the new film.

When you see the giant cylindrical ships in the atmosphere, if you look closely, you can see that within the cylinder, the space looks entirely different from the outside of the ship. If I'm interpreting this right, I think what the film is trying to convey is that the folding of space occurs inside the cylinder, and that there are multiple ships like this already around the universe orbiting the major planets of the Landsraad.

So we are seeing space being folded in the new film, just not in the trippy psychedelic way that Lynch did it or what was described in the book - instead, it's done in an efficient, industrial way that's so normal to the universe now that it's almost mundane - you just fly your ships through the cylinder, and arrive where you're intending to go

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TCTTS said:

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That's what I assumed/gathered from discussion here.

Doing a quick search, this seems to be the main consensus for the DV/movie version, though…

Quote:

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Ok, I think I finally get the subtle way they incorporated the concept of folding space in the new film.

When you see the giant cylindrical ships in the atmosphere, if you look closely, you can see that within the cylinder, the space looks entirely different from the outside of the ship. If I'm interpreting this right, I think what the film is trying to convey is that the folding of space occurs inside the cylinder, and that there are multiple ships like this already around the universe orbiting the major planets of the Landsraad.

So we are seeing space being folded in the new film, just not in the trippy psychedelic way that Lynch did it or what was described in the book - instead, it's done in an efficient, industrial way that's so normal to the universe now that it's almost mundane - you just fly your ships through the cylinder, and arrive where you're intending to go

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That said, the space inside the cylindrical structures looked normal/perfectly see through to me. In other words, no distortion. Anyone else?

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powerbelly said:

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TCTTS said:

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I kind of love the idea of the guild basically being the universe's Uber, capable of transporting entire fleets, and that's what the big, hallowed-out, cylindrical ships are. Shaped like that for whatever reason. But yeah, is it also possible that, say, every planet has a big, cylindrical structure in orbit, and each one is more like a portal/wormhole access point that the navigators somehow control?

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Book spoilers.

In the book the guild ships work like wormholes. You pull in the back and they fold space and you drive out the front.

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