***** The Lord of the Rings: Official Thread *****

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In reply to wangus12 • 2:57p, 2/18/22
AG
wangus12 said:
So I was listening to the OT soundtrack and it got me wondering. I remember Amazon being in talks with Howard Shore to compose music for the show, but don't remember if that was ever confirmed as well as whether or not they'd be able to use some of the old music in the show

The original work by Shore is still imo the greatest film score of all time.
Amazon has not officially confirmed but there is a ton of stuff pointing to Howard Shore and Bear McCreary (Godzilla King of Monsters, The Walking Dead) being co-composers on this project.

Obviously Shore on his own like he was for the films would be the best scenario, but Bear's stuff for TWD is probably the most consistent aspect of the series and I think the music will be in great hands with the two of them.
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Lathspell
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In reply to Quincey P. Morris • 7:01p, 2/18/22
AG
Quincey P. Morris said:
John Williams work on the Harry Potter movies is up there I think.

Howard Shore isn't currently listed as involved on his IMDB page so I don't know. Maybe it works out without him, but that would be a big miss in my opinion.
Again... great scores. But I have seen those movies many times, love Hedwigs theme and a few others I can remember, but that's really it. I feel like the LOTR score is interwoven into the narrative so tightly, each scene's music is almost iconic. I know the scenes coming up AS WELL AS the score. I really can't say that about any other movie. I can listen to the scores and think they are fantastic, but they just aren't woven into the fabric of the story itself, in the same way.

That's the best I can articulate it.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to Lathspell • 7:26p, 2/18/22
AG
Agreed.
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In reply to powerbelly • 9:05p, 2/18/22
AG
powerbelly said:
Quincey P. Morris said:
John Williams work on the Harry Potter movies is up there I think.

Howard Shore isn't currently listed as involved on his IMDB page so I don't know. Maybe it works out without him, but that would be a big miss in my opinion.
I love the score from the first 3 movies that he worked on.
One of my all-time favorites.

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Quincey P. Morris
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In reply to Lathspell • 11:04p, 2/18/22
AG
I get that as well. Not saying it's better, but it's up there.

And yes, I agree, I know the notes going into most scenes in LOTR. It really is ridiculous.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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10:55a, 2/19/22
Hold up on the Shore excitement: Vanity Fair has excised all references to him in their article.

It's hard to say if this is because he's not a done deal yet, or he is not going to be part of the production. We've heard both...
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redline248
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4:30p, 2/19/22
AG
Just checking in that I can't wait to see if this show is any good.
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PatAg
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8:17p, 2/19/22
AG
https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/02/16/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-showrunners-admit-they-dont-have-the-rights-to-the-silmarillion-or-unfinished-tales/

Angry article
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shaynew1
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In reply to PatAg • 9:15p, 2/19/22
redline248
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In reply to PatAg • 10:21p, 2/19/22
AG
Egregious!
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SpreadsheetAg
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 8:07a, 2/20/22
AG
helloimustbegoing said:
powerbelly said:
Quincey P. Morris said:
John Williams work on the Harry Potter movies is up there I think.

Howard Shore isn't currently listed as involved on his IMDB page so I don't know. Maybe it works out without him, but that would be a big miss in my opinion.
I love the score from the first 3 movies that he worked on.
One of my all-time favorites.



Really great song; and I like that he used a recorder (or is it a tin whistle?) and the harpsichord to immediately make it feel "old" and introspective if not a little melancholy.
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The Porkchop Express
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8:48a, 2/20/22
AG
It's such a great scene with Harry and lupin on the long bridge, and Harry getting the first rea) insight in the movies at least at what his parents were really like from a real friend.
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chase128
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In reply to PatAg • 12:14p, 2/20/22
AG
PatAg said:
https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/02/16/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-showrunners-admit-they-dont-have-the-rights-to-the-silmarillion-or-unfinished-tales/

Angry article


So they don't have rights to the books which contain probably 90% of the content for the second age? Yikes.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to chase128 • 12:33p, 2/20/22
AG
Nah, most of it is in the appendices.
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chase128
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 12:35p, 2/20/22
AG
Not.... really....but ok
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Madmarttigan
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12:45p, 2/20/22
AG
I guess I haven't been paying attention much but I thought part of the reason for the huge price tag was obtaining rights to some things? Did they really drop over half a billion on a show that is just LOTR almost in name only with little access to most of the source material?
Formerly tv1113
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The Porkchop Express
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12:59p, 2/20/22
AG
It sort of sounds like they're playing fast and loose the same way they did with some of the Hobbit expansion - dropping names and characters into situations to connect with the general audience that probably saw most / all of the LOTR/Hobbit movies. The more info that comes out, the more this is starting to feel like the Idris Elba/All right all right all right Dark Tower from a few years back, that Gunslinger purists like myself avoided like the plague.
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chase128
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1:04p, 2/20/22
AG
I'd like to clarify some since I was running around.

Appendix B has about a page or two and a coarse timeline about the Second Age.

Appendix A has some info about the people's of middle earth and some events mentioned take place in the second age.

But that's just several pages of content compared to whole books/chapters of info. Just seems like they don't have access to a ton of great content and details.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to chase128 • 2:45p, 2/20/22
AG
chase128 said:
Not.... really....but ok


There's very little on the Second Age in general, so it's not like there's a book to butcher here.

From my understanding, The Silmarillion has like 30 pages on The Second Age, total. Pretty miniscule real estate compared to the First and Third Ages.
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PatAg
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3:16p, 2/20/22
AG
Just from memory, most of the Silmarillion that reads like actual stories is the First Age. There is a section that is sort of a high level view of the 2nd age into the 3rd age, a sort of cliff's notes version.

Basically, if someone wanted to tell the stories of the First Age from the Silmarillion, those could be pretty good.
This show is going to be at the mercy of the writers, and whatever skill level they have. By making the show, they are forced to create a lot of characters and story arcs, and I think there is probably valid concern that they wont get the tone right.
In my opinion, if it fails it wont be because they added some black elves and dwarves, but just because they aren't good enough story tellers.
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chase128
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 5:14p, 2/20/22
AG
Brian Earl Spilner said:
chase128 said:
Not.... really....but ok


There's very little on the Second Age in general, so it's not like there's a book to butcher here.

From my understanding, The Silmarillion has like 30 pages on The Second Age, total. Pretty miniscule real estate compared to the First and Third Ages.


Silmarillion has about that much and Unfinished Tales has several chapters that amount to a decent chunk of the book.

The RotK Appendices only have a couple pages. They don't have access to the majority of the, albeit small, amount of content available.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to chase128 • 5:29p, 2/20/22
AG
Granted I haven't read LOTR in years, but I'm fairly sure the appendices are a pretty solid chunk of pages right? Like 1/4 - 1/5 the length of ROTK. And a good portion about the second age.

Admittedly I don't know much about Unifinished Tales. But I definitely don't think it's 90% of Second Age material that's off-limits.
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chase128
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 6:02p, 2/20/22
AG
I checked earlier and there's really not much second age stuff in the appendices on the Second Age. Appendix A and B are the historical stuff. The other appendices are family trees, languages, and calendars.

"A" has some history of the Numenoreans and its Kings, some brief notes on how it rose and fell, but almost all of it is about what happens after Isildur dies and the Ring is lost.

"B" has about two pages about the Second Age, it's a couple paragraphs and a timeline of major events which is important.

That timeline is probably the most helpful thing. They'll be able to use that and have the major flow of events to follow. I'll admit to being a dramatic, because I was just shocked to see what they don't have access to. It really surprised me.

A ton about Galadriel and Celeborn is in the Silmarillion and especially Unfinished Tales. Sucks to miss that stuff. I've read so much Tolkien it all runs together for me, i can't imagine having to dissect parts out.
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YouBet
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In reply to chase128 • 7:11p, 2/20/22
AG
chase128 said:
I checked earlier and there's really not much second age stuff in the appendices on the Second Age. Appendix A and B are the historical stuff. The other appendices are family trees, languages, and calendars.

"A" has some history of the Numenoreans and its Kings, some brief notes on how it rose and fell, but almost all about what happens after Isildur dies and the Ring is lost.

"B" has about two pages about the Second Age, it's a couple paragraphs and a timeline of major events which is important.

That timeline is probably the most helpful thing. They'll be able to use that and have the major flow of events to follow. I'll admit to being a dramatic, because I was just shocked to see what they don't have access to. It really surprised me.

A ton about Galadriel and Celeborn is in the Silmarillion and especially Unfinished Tales. Sucks to miss that stuff. I've read so much Tolkien it all runs together for me, i can't imagine having to dissect parts out.
I'm going to eat a little crow here. It does for me as well and on top of that it's been decades since I've read most of it. I did read Unfinished Tales in the last decade which is the most recent thing I've read.

IOW, my initial write off of this is that they are trying to make these movies largely based on The Silmarillion which, if that's all First Age, wasn't even the scope of this film if the scope is Second Age.

This is still fan fiction inside a very loose framework of guide posts by and large but at least they aren't trying to make up their own story of one that has been written that they just don't have access to.
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SpreadsheetAg
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1:19p, 2/21/22
AG
https://collider.com/lord-of-the-rings-timeline-explained/#second-age

A little recap of the 2nd Age: these are pretty significant

Quote:
The Second Age
S. A. 1
Gil-galad, king of the Noldor, creates a new kingdom for his people in Lindon, which is located in the northwest of Middle Earth.

S. A. 32
Men who escaped the destruction of Beliarand arrive in Numenor, an island in the sea between Middle-earth and Valinor.
Elros becomes the first king of Numenor.

S. A. 500
Sauron becomes active again in Middle-earth after laying low after Morgoth's defeat.

S. A. 750
Under Gil-galad's leadership, the Noldor expand and form the kingdom of Eregion, located near the Dwarven realm of Moria.

S. A. 1000
Sauron begins building the fortress of Barad-dur in the land of Mordor in the southeast of Middle-earth.

S. A. 1200
Sauron tries to corrupt the leaders of Eregion. Gil-galad refuses to trust him.

S. A. 1350
Celeborn and Galadriel become the leaders of the Elvish kingdom of Lorien.

S. A. 1500
Disguised as a friend called Annatar, Sauron deceives the Elves of Eregion into creating the Rings of Power.

S. A. 1600
With the forging of the One Ring of Power, all the rings are complete.
Sauron reveals himself as the force behind the creation of the Rings of Power.
Sauron completes the tower of Barad-dur.

S. A. 1693
The Elves hide the Three Rings from Sauron.
The War of the Elves and Sauron commences.

S. A. 1695
Sauron invades Eregion.
Gil-galad sends Elrond in command of a force of Elves to fight against Sauron in Eregion.

S. A. 1697
Sauron destroys Eregion.
Elrond survives and leads his remaining army and the refugees of Eregion into a valley north of Eregion.
Elrond establishes Rivendell, which is besieged by Sauron.

S. A. 1700
An alliance of Lindon Elves and Numenorean Men defeats Sauron. Sauron retreats from Eriador.

S. A. 3209
Isildur is born in Numenor.

S. A. 3261
The last king of Numenor, Ar-Pharazn the Golden, lands at Umbar to capture Sauron, because he has been threatening Numenor.

S. A. 3262
Ar-Pharazn the Golden captures Sauron.
Sauron arrives in Numenor as a prisoner, but uses his powers to begin corrupting the Numenoreans.

S. A. 3300
Sauron becomes an advisor to Ar-Pharazn the Golden.

S. A. 3310
At the instigation of Sauron, Ar-Pharazn the Golden begins building a great armada, called The Great Armament, to invade Aman and challenge the Valar.

S. A. 3319
Ar-Pharazn arrives in Aman.
In response, the Valar remove any path from Middle-earth to Aman. They drown Numenor.
Survivors of Numenor who remained loyal to the Valar arrive in Middle-earth under the command of Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anrion.

S. A. 3320
Elendil, Isildur, and Anrion found Arnor and Gondor.
Sauron returns to Barad-dur in Mordor.

S. A. 3429
Sauron attacks Gondor and conquers the city of Minas Ithil. The War of the Last Alliance begins.

S. A. 3430
The Last Alliance of Men and Elves forms to take on Sauron. Isildur leaves his wife and youngest son, Valandil, behind in Rivendell.

S. A. 3434
In the Battle of Dagorlad at the gates of Mordor, the Last Alliance penetrated the Black Gate and began a siege of Barad-dur.

S. A. 3441
Sauron emerges from Barad-dr onto the field of combat, killing Gil-galad and Elendil.

Isildur, son of Elendil, uses the shards of his father's sword, Narsil, to cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger.

Sauron is defeated.


Basically; "The Rise and Fall of Sauron - Part 1"
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Quincey P. Morris
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2:32p, 2/21/22
AG
Ordered The Peoples of Middle Earth today to add to the collection as I'd read it might have some background even if they're not able to use it.

I won't pretend to have even come close to reading all of these. Everything that's not the main stories is just a bear to read.


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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to Quincey P. Morris • 2:40p, 2/21/22
AG
Quincey P. Morris said:
Ordered The Peoples of Middle Earth today to add to the collection as I'd read it might have some background even if they're not able to use it.

I won't pretend to have even come close to reading all of these. Everything that's not the main stories is just a bear to read.


Right in the middle should be Sauron: A Star Wars Story
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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In reply to Quincey P. Morris • 2:47p, 2/21/22
Quincey P. Morris said:
Ordered The Peoples of Middle Earth today to add to the collection as I'd read it might have some background even if they're not able to use it.

I won't pretend to have even come close to reading all of these. Everything that's not the main stories is just a bear to read.



The trick is to not treat it like a standard read. Don't try to read it it cover to cover; instead, find the bits that feel the most interesting and nibble at those chunks.

For example, the Tale of Adanel, Dialogue of Andreth and Finrod, and the Essay on Motivations of Sauron/Morgoth in Morgoth's Ring are the best part of that book, but maybe represent 10% of the content in it. If you're feeling good, then try the Myths Transformed section where the professor attempts to rework the Silmarillion with an eye for more scientific accuracy.
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Quincey P. Morris
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In reply to Solo Tetherball Champ • 4:17p, 2/21/22
AG
That's why I started getting them. I just need to actually sit down and see what seems interesting which is daunting in its own right.
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chase128
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4:23p, 2/21/22
AG
I've been chipping away at the Lay of Leithian (from the Lays of Beleriand) for the past month or so. It's fascinating to see how the poem progressed with C.S. Lewis's critiques sprinkled in. Him and Tolkien were extremely intelligent men and anything from the History of Middle Earth takes a ton of focus/mental energy from me to digest. But it sure is worth it.

The Dialogue of Andreth and Finrod is a real gem, too. I really enjoyed that.
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PatAg
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5:19p, 2/21/22
AG
TCTTS - As far as I can tell, the two show runners have basically nothing on their resume.
I'm sure every genius had to start somewhere, but this seems like a huge project for first timers.
There is one writer who seems to have a lot of credits, she has some Breaking Bad on there as an executive story editor. No idea what this role is.

I only ask because it sure seems like this show is going to rely on the creativity and writing ability of the team, more than a normal adaptation might.
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Madmarttigan
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7:31p, 2/21/22
AG
It's funny how this thread turns from excitement to fear/anger after we get a wildly mediocre wheel of time series and a very meh teaser trailer for this.

Sometimes I wonder is it better to be left wishing for your fantasy content to be put on the screen instead of watching it get butchered. At least GoT was a lot of fun until the last season.

I wonder if anyone will ever match what GoT put on the screen. Even Harry Potter messed up a lot of very important moments in the books.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to Madmarttigan • 9:00p, 2/21/22
AG
Madmarttigan said:
It's funny how this thread turns from excitement to fear/anger after we get a wildly mediocre wheel of time series and a very meh teaser trailer for this.

I believe it was Gandalf, or perhaps Professor Slughorn who famously said that fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hate.

For my 2 cents, no movie or TV show will ever be as good as the book. The power of our own imagination and the feelings of a first read, painting the pictures in your head, imagining what it looks like in your mind's eye, the favorite passages that give you chills no matter how many times you re-read them; no visual medium can even approach it.
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Fightin TX Aggie
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 9:17p, 2/21/22
AG
Quote:
I believe it was Gandalf, or perhaps Professor Slughorn who famously said that fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hate.
Idiot!

Slughorn wasn't even in Avengers. #SoDumb

As David Lee Roth wrote, "All the world to me a stage, and we are merely players. Transformers and kingslayers."
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Brian Earl Spilner
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9:21p, 2/21/22
AG
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