***** The Lord of the Rings: Official Thread *****

222,564 Views | 1947 Replies | Last: 17 days ago by The Porkchop Express
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Brian Earl Spilner said:












It must be an off day at r/lotrmemes as those are the weakest memes you've brought!

Anyways, I was wondering what anyone here wanted to discuss the upcoming Amazon show. Expectations, hopes, what you want to see, etc.

Personally, I hope they actually show the full 2,000-year span of that conflict. Utilize the opportunity afforded by immortal characters to have actual-time jumps when necessary between seasons. Those immortal characters could serve as bridges of continuity against a changing human cast. In my ideal world, these are more or less anthologies that build upon each other.

The core narratives in each season would be:

Season 1: Establish the setting. Elves recognize that evil has not been defeated, but that the world is darkening. They are looking for ways to protect themselves and their realms. Annatar arrives and assists the elves in the forging of Rings of Power. Politicking among Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, and Oropher (Thranduils dad) over who can rule and whether or not they can trust this Annatar guy.

Meanwhile, Numenorians perceive the darkening of middle-earth. I'd adapt the narrative of Aldarion and Erendis in here but tweaked: Erendis favors isolationism, but Aldarion sees the need to intervene in a darkening Middle-Earth. Season Ends with Annatar revealed to be Sauron, who has forged the Ruling Ring.

Season 2: Minor Time jump, Sauron, now revealed for who he is, has been waging war against the elves. Eregion is destroyed. The aged King Aldarion sends Numenorian soldiers. We see the first signs of Numenorian jealousy of immortality and resentment of the elves, as well as poor treatments of the lesser* men of middle-earth.

During the War, Glorfindel and two old guys dressed in blue arrive. Glorfindel arrives and is welcomed back among his friends, but the blue guys disappear.

*Numenorians live for hundreds of years. They're literal supermen.

Season 3: Big Timejump. The primary focus is not Numenor, which has grown decadent and imperialistic but is now on the peoples of middle-earth caught between Sauron, who is now giving out Rings of Power, and the growing imperialism of Numenor. We could even see a character who accepts one of the Rings tragically fall into a Nazgul. Elves continue to hold the line against Sauron, who now has human armies under his sway, but many are fleeing earth. Elves continue to entreat Numenor to intervene, however now Numenor won't go to war for the sake of the elves, but will fight for the glory of Numenor.

We see those blue guys from before, who are now revealed to be the blue wizards who are trying to create resistance against Sauron in the East, with mixed results.

Season 4: Big Timejump. The long-awaited War of Numenor and Sauron. Sauron gets his ass kicked and is taken captive, where he corrupts the now prideful and imperialistic Numenorians into Morgoth worship. complete with human sacrifice. Finally, Numenor attacks the undying lands, leading to The downfall of Numenor. Season ends with the survivors, led by Elendil and his sons arriving in Middle-Earth. Post Credits: Sauron spirit is revealed to have survived the destruction of Numenor.

Season 5: The last alliance. Sauron is revealed to have survived, but he has lost the ability to create a form that isn't hideous and terrible. He makes war against the Numenorian survivors. However, he has struck to soon before he has rebuilt his strength.

The surviving Numenorians, Elves, and Dwarves unite. They slowly push Sauron's forces back, but at great cost. Now is the time that many characters slowly get killed off. Finally, Elendil and Gil-Galad kill Sauron but die in the process. Isildur takes the Ring from the dying Sauron. The Survivors part ways.

The season ends with Isildur getting ambushed and the loss of the Ring.

So that is a rough summary of what I am hoping against hope for. However, I fully expect Amazon to do something completely different. Instead, they're probably going to try to condense the rise and fall of Sauron to a single generation, rather than show Sauron ascendant for a long period of time.
Chase McGuire
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This sounds awesome, but I agree. It's probably much more likely they condense it all rather than have a story that spans such a long time. Easier for most viewers that way.
Duncan Idaho
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For me the perfect season would be like that scene in Holy Grail where the knight is charging the castle...except walking.

Just episode after episode of walking and then in the last 30 second of the last episode they kill the bad guy.
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Chase McGuire said:

This sounds awesome, but I agree. It's probably much more likely they condense it all rather than have a story that spans such a long time. Easier for most viewers that way.
I think we've seen over the past decade that audiences can handle a lot more than what we expect of them. Just look at the MCU: Marvel has made a branching and interconnected universe out of 20 plus movies look easy. The wife and I hadn't even seen a few of them (Strange, Spiderman, Captain Marvel) and we had no issue keeping up.

But yeah, I expect Amazon to do something conventional.
Duncan Idaho
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Have you tried to see strange with your wife? I mean some are into that
amercer
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AG
That would be an awesome series, but I expect I lot smaller scope, with a lot of stories and characters that are completely new. I hope it's awesome, but we'll see.
Grimey
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The real problem for an epic Second Age series is the Numenoreans. The elves have a very consistent cast throughout the Second Age: Gil-galad, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Celebrimbor, Thranduil's dad. However, over the events of the age (approximately 16 centuries from the forging of the Rings) there are an equal number of kings/queens of Numenor. That's a lot of characters. Even if you trim the fat, you will still have around 5 kings. Add in the Faithful to get even more characters.

Between Elves, Numenoreans, Dwarves, and Wild Men (the Nine) there will be a lot to juggle.

Personally, even though it is not accurate, I would condense all of the good Numenor stuff into Tar-Palantir and all the bad stuff into Ar-Pharazon.

Act 1: Forging of the rings. War between Elves and Sauron. Tar-Palantir come to the rescue, but makes the fatal mistake of taking Sauron captive. As the Elves and Dwarves deal with the fallout of the Rings of Power, the Shadow falls over Numenor. Act 1 ends when Ar-Pharazon surrepticiously smothers the aged Palantir and ascends to the throne.

Act 2: The decline of Numenor. Ar-Pharazon speaks against the Valar and Eldar. The Faithful (aided by the Elves) speak against him. The people of Middle-Earth are squeezed between Mordor and Numenor. Act 2 ends (naturally) with the downfall of Numenor and the establishments of Gondor and Arnor.

Act 3: Gondor and Arnor. Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion. The Last Alliance and the fate of the Edain (a Third Age epilogue).
reemus
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I like LOTR books more than movies.
Al Bula
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AG
reemus said:

I like LOTR books more than movies.
LOL check out the posting history on this account.

100% chance it is a conversational AI bot unleashed on texags.

I guess it is a Texags business decision to not use any bot registration deterrence? You would think in 2020 a business selling a software product would incorporate bot prevention.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Quote:

My favorite games are Fortnite and Owerwatch. I also do not often can play video games but like to do it in free time. I play fortnite with friends and follow last fortnite stats on [url=https://dreamteam.gg/fortnite][/url]https://dreamteam.gg/fortnite
Bahahahaha
Satellite of Love
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STAFF, could we add Potential Bot Account to the flag list?
bad_teammate said on 2/10/21:
Just imagine how 1/6 would've played out if DC hadn't had such strict gun laws.

Two people starred his post as of the time of this signature. Those 3 people are allowed to vote in the US.
aggietony2010
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AG
Sauron used to offer rings. Now the best he can do is an occasional spam bot? My, how the mighty have fallen.
redline248
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Quote:

What are your 3 top sports moments you've witnessed?

4:24a, 4/20/19
0
many of the moments
many!!
amercer
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AG
Shouldn't a spam bot post more than 15 times a year?
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Shife said:

reemus said:

I like LOTR books more than movies.
LOL check out the posting history on this account.

100% chance it is a conversational AI bot unleashed on texags.

I guess it is a Texags business decision to not use any bot registration deterrence? You would think in 2020 a business selling a software product would incorporate bot prevention.
Bot or not, anything that recognizes the superiority of the books over the movies is great in my book.
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Grimey said:

The real problem for an epic Second Age series is the Numenoreans. The elves have a very consistent cast throughout the Second Age: Gil-galad, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Celebrimbor, Thranduil's dad. However, over the events of the age (approximately 16 centuries from the forging of the Rings) there are an equal number of kings/queens of Numenor. That's a lot of characters. Even if you trim the fat, you will still have around 5 kings. Add in the Faithful to get even more characters.

Between Elves, Numenoreans, Dwarves, and Wild Men (the Nine) there will be a lot to juggle.

Personally, even though it is not accurate, I would condense all of the good Numenor stuff into Tar-Palantir and all the bad stuff into Ar-Pharazon.

Act 1: Forging of the rings. War between Elves and Sauron. Tar-Palantir come to the rescue, but makes the fatal mistake of taking Sauron captive. As the Elves and Dwarves deal with the fallout of the Rings of Power, the Shadow falls over Numenor. Act 1 ends when Ar-Pharazon surrepticiously smothers the aged Palantir and ascends to the throne.

Act 2: The decline of Numenor. Ar-Pharazon speaks against the Valar and Eldar. The Faithful (aided by the Elves) speak against him. The people of Middle-Earth are squeezed between Mordor and Numenor. Act 2 ends (naturally) with the downfall of Numenor and the establishments of Gondor and Arnor.

Act 3: Gondor and Arnor. Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion. The Last Alliance and the fate of the Edain (a Third Age epilogue).

I expect Amazon to do something like this, which will feel very rushed to me. Numenor goes from peaceful and idealistic to literal satan worship, culminating in attacking the very gods it recently revered that quickly? It's like a peaceful hippy commune transforming into Nazi Germany times 1000 overnight. What about Sauron reclaiming and giving out the Rings of power? What about the Nazgul?

Regarding your Act structure, Amazon has currently ordered 5 Seasons. How would you split up those arcs among the Five seasons?

Also, if you're going to greatly condense the narrative like that, why not merge the characters of Aldarion and Tar-Palantir? In Aldarion, you actually have an actual narrative with Tolkien dialogue to draw from.

What I like about my anthology format is that it allows for the perspective of the Elves and even Sauron. These are immortal beings who always take the long view. Mortal men, after all, are like the flowers of the field to elves: they may love us, but we are utterly transient to them. Hell, elves don't record the passing of the years for themselves. Narratively, you have the seeds for conflict: the impetus for men is to act now while we are young and strong, whereas the elves can afford to wait and see what happens. Elves allowed Sauron to arise and take shape because they waited, whereas had they acted when the Numenorians wanted it could have been snuffed out earlier.

It also makes the Shadow that falls on the Numenorians that much more visible to the Audience: Imagine if in Season 1 Young Aldarion is preparing Numenor against the perceived threat that is arising in Middle-Earth and meets with Gil-Galad or Elrond. In Season 2, which focuses on the first Wars in Middle-Earth, an old Aldarion is reunited with the perpetually youthful Elrond and Gil-Galad. The audience could actually see how the mortal men can become jealous of the immortal elves, jealousy that can slowly into resentment and finally hatred. I'd even beg the Tolkien Estate to let me pull from some of the HoME volumes, in particular the dialogue where an elf king and a wise woman are discussing the natures of men and elves way back in the first age.
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
Oh my god dude, we get it.
amercer
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I fell like you're probably going to end up hating the tv series.
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amercer said:

I fell like you're probably going to end up hating the tv series.
You know what? I've had that same realization myself.

Despite what some people in this thread think, I like the LOTR movies. I can appreciate them for their art direction, cinematography, and general willingness to follow the books; I understand why they removed many of the things they cut, and I agree with some things they added, but some of those changes/additions I vehemently disagree with. No need to rehash those again. However, given the choice between a rewatch or a reread, I choose the books every single time. I don't think I've watched Two Towers or ROTK in nearly a decade.


In the case of this show, There are two major obstacles that the show needs to overcome:

  • I know my Tolkien. I know the themes, the tone, the characters, the historical arc, etc.
  • I like to think about how these stories, themes, and timelines can be adapted, as seen above. I may not be able to write dialogue or a scene, but I can draw out a narrative arc that makes sense in light of those themes and perceive the interpersonal conflicts that may occur.

I'm not the kind of guy that can mindlessly watch something. I'm constantly wondering: wait? does this make sense? If this works, why didn't they do that before? That is out of character here: clearly they just wanted to have a setpiece and the plot was just a means to get them there, etc.

I fully expect that I may not even make it all the way through the first season before giving up.
Duncan Idaho
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Books better than movies??????

Now that is a hot take!!!!!
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
cbr
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I read lotr from he age of 6 many times and loved the movies. But i am stunned and ashamed at how far i've been outpaced and outgeeked here. Cheers, anyone who can read silmarillion is truly geeked out!
redline248
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cbr said:

I read lotr from he age of 6 many times and loved the movies. But i am stunned and ashamed at how far i've been outpaced and outgeeked here. Cheers, anyone who can read silmarillion is truly geeked out!
I read it, probably 15 or 20 years ago, and I have a hard time remembering a lot of it.
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Brian Earl Spilner said:


Bro, find an appropiate LOTR meme to use instead!

For what its worth, I tried to find an appropriate one to use to respond to your "Oh my god dude, we get it." comment to me.
redline248
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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twilly
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FYI for those in NTX...

Ranger fans you're not dreaming! The Rangers are the World Series Champions!
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
They're doing that same panel at Megacon in Orlando in April. Was planning on going but something else came up in the same weekend. Was pretty bummed.

But the funny thing is they've been touting it as the first reunion for the four Hobbits at any con, so I guess it's not exclusive now. Makes me feel slightly better...
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
Little harsh. But funny.

Solo Tetherball Champ
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Little harsh. But funny.


Is that from r/****tymoviedetails?
Brian Earl Spilner
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Never heard of that sub.
Chase McGuire
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It was on r/freefolk
DVC2010
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

amercer said:

I fell like you're probably going to end up hating the tv series.
You know what? I've had that same realization myself.

Despite what some people in this thread think, I like the LOTR movies. I can appreciate them for their art direction, cinematography, and general willingness to follow the books; I understand why they removed many of the things they cut, and I agree with some things they added, but some of those changes/additions I vehemently disagree with. No need to rehash those again. However, given the choice between a rewatch or a reread, I choose the books every single time. I don't think I've watched Two Towers or ROTK in nearly a decade.


In the case of this show, There are two major obstacles that the show needs to overcome:

  • I know my Tolkien. I know the themes, the tone, the characters, the historical arc, etc.
  • I like to think about how these stories, themes, and timelines can be adapted, as seen above. I may not be able to write dialogue or a scene, but I can draw out a narrative arc that makes sense in light of those themes and perceive the interpersonal conflicts that may occur.

I'm not the kind of guy that can mindlessly watch something. I'm constantly wondering: wait? does this make sense? If this works, why didn't they do that before? That is out of character here: clearly they just wanted to have a setpiece and the plot was just a means to get them there, etc.

I fully expect that I may not even make it all the way through the first season before giving up.

I sincerely hope there's one of you on the staff that's working on this show. Maybe a solo dodgeball champion or something.
redline248
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AG
That's hilarious
Solo Tetherball Champ
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DVC2010 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

amercer said:

I fell like you're probably going to end up hating the tv series.
You know what? I've had that same realization myself.

Despite what some people in this thread think, I like the LOTR movies. I can appreciate them for their art direction, cinematography, and general willingness to follow the books; I understand why they removed many of the things they cut, and I agree with some things they added, but some of those changes/additions I vehemently disagree with. No need to rehash those again. However, given the choice between a rewatch or a reread, I choose the books every single time. I don't think I've watched Two Towers or ROTK in nearly a decade.


In the case of this show, There are two major obstacles that the show needs to overcome:

  • I know my Tolkien. I know the themes, the tone, the characters, the historical arc, etc.
  • I like to think about how these stories, themes, and timelines can be adapted, as seen above. I may not be able to write dialogue or a scene, but I can draw out a narrative arc that makes sense in light of those themes and perceive the interpersonal conflicts that may occur.

I'm not the kind of guy that can mindlessly watch something. I'm constantly wondering: wait? does this make sense? If this works, why didn't they do that before? That is out of character here: clearly they just wanted to have a setpiece and the plot was just a means to get them there, etc.

I fully expect that I may not even make it all the way through the first season before giving up.

I sincerely hope there's one of you on the staff that's working on this show. Maybe a solo dodgeball champion or something.
I hope they have at least someone like me in the production, if not many like me. Someone who is willing to tweak and combine things, but overall wants to keep the same structure and themes of the Second Age.

Something that has given me hope is learning that Amazon was in a bidding war with HBO, Netflix, plus at least one other player for the rights to the material. One of the reasons that Amazon won (in addition to $250 million) is that they were willing to work under two constraints:
  • They did not require complete creative freedom (Netflix wanted much more freedom)
  • They were willing to grant the Tolkien Estate a no questions asked Veto on any decisions.

Now, regarding the Veto, the challenge is I have no idea what the Estate would consider worthy of it. I know that some individuals, like the late Christopher Tolkien, would consider the whole production worthy of a veto. There are people out there who consider some of my ideas, such as combining the Numenorian King who begins to prepare Numenor against the rising darkness with the Numenorian king who actually leads the first war against Sauron to be blasphemous. We don't know what the Estate will find acceptable and unacceptable. There are also people out there who think that making Elendil a woman, Elrond black, and condensing the nearly 2,000-year wars of the Second Age to a single year or so make perfect sense.


 
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