GigEm17J said:
Genuine question... What will it take to get to an elite level? Is it even possible here with all the other sports soaking up athletes?
duck79 said:
I'm not as informed on the younger players in the system. When qualifying starts back up again, who do we expect to be fighting for a spot in the top 11?
Ream-he will be done but what's behind him bc McKenzie isn't the answer
Freese?
Adams/Mckennie-will they have begun to age out and be pushed by younger
Pulisic-I feel this is the biggest question mark
TXAggie2011 said:Who?mikejones! said:Frok said:
Why is there no mens college soccer in America?
If we truly want to be good then promote the sport rather than eliminate it for title 9
Actuslly a big part of the problem. It's pay to play, so dudes like dempsey get overlooked for lack of opportunity.
Then, without a strong college program, men's soccer is relegated to thr basement without a sufficient development program in its stead.
The reason we're sp dominate at Olympic sports is mostly due to our college sports and thr billions it pours into elite training.
Men's soccer misses out on that and there's no real alternate program. The MLS has tried. Useful has tried. But nothing can fill that void in the current landscape.
We have 205 division 1 men's soccer teams each with the ability to hand out 28 scholarships each, including at many of the richest, biggest athletic departments in the country. Opportunity at the college level is almost certainly not our problem. The problem starts before college.
Who?mikejones! said:TXAggie2011 said:Who?mikejones! said:Frok said:
Why is there no mens college soccer in America?
If we truly want to be good then promote the sport rather than eliminate it for title 9
Actuslly a big part of the problem. It's pay to play, so dudes like dempsey get overlooked for lack of opportunity.
Then, without a strong college program, men's soccer is relegated to thr basement without a sufficient development program in its stead.
The reason we're sp dominate at Olympic sports is mostly due to our college sports and thr billions it pours into elite training.
Men's soccer misses out on that and there's no real alternate program. The MLS has tried. Useful has tried. But nothing can fill that void in the current landscape.
We have 205 division 1 men's soccer teams each with the ability to hand out 28 scholarships each, including at many of the richest, biggest athletic departments in the country. Opportunity at the college level is almost certainly not our problem. The problem starts before college.
It works for football, baseball, softball, mens and women's basketball, swimming, baseball, softball, track and field, women's soccer, womens volleyball and others.
Most all those programs are small schools. And it simply existing isn't sufficient. It needs to get into schools like tamu, or Texas or the sec or big 12. Espn needs to promote it like it does womens basketball.
The point is the ncaa is americans youth sports development program. It's been great for most sports. It not surprising in the sports where the ncaa lacks- soccer, rugby, others- we trail far behind the world in youth development
I agree though. It starts before that with our youth sports. It's a commonly known soccer is a pay for play sport, pricing out thousands as they get beyond little leauge. We also don't have a culture of clubs getting cuts out of contracts their players get when they go pro. It's expected the family bears the burden of training which leads to kids who have no business being there getting the training while others are left out.
Dempsey only got there because his sister tragically died when she was a senior and the family was able to pay for Clint to be on a club team from dallas. He didn't play in a playoff game for his high school because he instead played in a tournament for his club team. Great move for him, sucked for the team as they lost their only one of the season.
It's common trope around here that our best pro athletes wouldn't make a difference if they were on the usmnt. That'd be different if they chose soccer at a young age instead football, basketball or baseball. It's not easy, both socially and practically, to make that choice. A soccer first achane running down the right wing. A soccer first kc conception running down the left.
Our best athletes choose different sports. The world's choose soccer. Until you can incentivize something different and then provide the same sort of training and/or benefits those atheltes get today, we will never get over the hump
I can guarantee we will never get there without massively improving men's ncaa soccer. It's the easiest route we could take. Asking the MLS is a non starter. They simply are not big enough.
Asking the ussf to do it is also a non starter. America is too big and they are too distracted to implement any sort of replacement program.
GigEm17J said:
Genuine question... What will it take to get to an elite level? Is it even possible here with all the other sports soaking up athletes?
Who?mikejones! said:TXAggie2011 said:Who?mikejones! said:Frok said:
Why is there no mens college soccer in America?
If we truly want to be good then promote the sport rather than eliminate it for title 9
Actuslly a big part of the problem. It's pay to play, so dudes like dempsey get overlooked for lack of opportunity.
Then, without a strong college program, men's soccer is relegated to thr basement without a sufficient development program in its stead.
The reason we're sp dominate at Olympic sports is mostly due to our college sports and thr billions it pours into elite training.
Men's soccer misses out on that and there's no real alternate program. The MLS has tried. Useful has tried. But nothing can fill that void in the current landscape.
We have 205 division 1 men's soccer teams each with the ability to hand out 28 scholarships each, including at many of the richest, biggest athletic departments in the country. Opportunity at the college level is almost certainly not our problem. The problem starts before college.
It works for football, baseball, softball, mens and women's basketball, swimming, baseball, softball, track and field, women's soccer, womens volleyball and others.
Most all of those men's soccer programs are at small schools. And it simply existing isn't sufficient. It needs to get into schools like tamu, or Texas or the sec or big 12. Espn needs to promote it like it does womens basketball.
The point is the ncaa is americans youth sports development program. It's been great for most sports. It not surprising in the sports where the ncaa lacks- soccer, rugby, others- we trail far behind the world in youth development
I agree though. It starts before that with our youth sports. It's a commonly known soccer is a pay for play sport, pricing out thousands as they get beyond little leauge. We also don't have a culture of clubs getting cuts out of contracts their players get when they go pro. It's expected the family bears the burden of training which leads to kids who have no business being there getting the training while others are left out.
Dempsey only got there because his sister tragically died when she was a senior and the family was able to pay for Clint to be on a club team from dallas. He didn't play in a playoff game for his high school because he instead played in a tournament for his club team. Great move for him, sucked for the team as they lost their only one of the season. How many kids would have chose the school team instead of the exposure?
It's common trope around here that our best pro athletes wouldn't make a difference if they were on the usmnt. That'd be different if they chose soccer at a young age instead football, basketball or baseball. It's not easy, both socially and practically, to make that choice. A soccer first achane running down the right wing. A soccer first kc conception running down the left.
Our best athletes choose different sports. The world's choose soccer. Until you can incentivize something different and then provide the same sort of training and/or benefits those atheltes get today, we will never get over the hump
I can guarantee we will never get there without massively improving men's ncaa soccer. It's the easiest route we could take. Asking the MLS is a non starter. They simply are not big enough.
Asking the ussf to do it is also a non starter. America is too big and they are too distracted to implement any sort of replacement program.
fig96 said:GigEm17J said:
Genuine question... What will it take to get to an elite level? Is it even possible here with all the other sports soaking up athletes?
It's not about the athletes.
Kids here don't live and breathe soccer like they do in Spain, Brazil, England, Portugal, etc. They don't grow up playing pickup or futsal or street soccer for hours a day. They don't develop that touch and understanding and exploration of the ball that's innate to the best players.
There will be outliers that can become very good to even elite pros in top leagues, we have a few now, but we're going to be hard pressed to develop a true world class superstar (at least one that's born in the US).
fig96 said:GigEm17J said:
Genuine question... What will it take to get to an elite level? Is it even possible here with all the other sports soaking up athletes?
It's not about the athletes.
Kids here don't live and breathe soccer like they do in Spain, Brazil, England, Portugal, etc. They don't grow up playing pickup or futsal or street soccer for hours a day. They don't develop that touch and understanding and exploration of the ball that's innate to the best players.
There will be outliers that can become very good to even elite pros in top leagues, we have a few now, but we're going to be hard pressed to develop a true world class superstar (at least one that's born in the US).
duck79 said:
I'm not as informed on the younger players in the system. When qualifying starts back up again, who do we expect to be fighting for a spot in the top 11?
Ream-he will be done but what's behind him bc McKenzie isn't the answer
Freese?
Adams/Mckennie-will they have begun to age out and be pushed by younger
Pulisic-I feel this is the biggest question mark
PatAg said:Who?mikejones! said:TXAggie2011 said:Who?mikejones! said:Frok said:
Why is there no mens college soccer in America?
If we truly want to be good then promote the sport rather than eliminate it for title 9
Actuslly a big part of the problem. It's pay to play, so dudes like dempsey get overlooked for lack of opportunity.
Then, without a strong college program, men's soccer is relegated to thr basement without a sufficient development program in its stead.
The reason we're sp dominate at Olympic sports is mostly due to our college sports and thr billions it pours into elite training.
Men's soccer misses out on that and there's no real alternate program. The MLS has tried. Useful has tried. But nothing can fill that void in the current landscape.
We have 205 division 1 men's soccer teams each with the ability to hand out 28 scholarships each, including at many of the richest, biggest athletic departments in the country. Opportunity at the college level is almost certainly not our problem. The problem starts before college.
It works for football, baseball, softball, mens and women's basketball, swimming, baseball, softball, track and field, women's soccer, womens volleyball and others.
Most all of those men's soccer programs are at small schools. And it simply existing isn't sufficient. It needs to get into schools like tamu, or Texas or the sec or big 12. Espn needs to promote it like it does womens basketball.
The point is the ncaa is americans youth sports development program. It's been great for most sports. It not surprising in the sports where the ncaa lacks- soccer, rugby, others- we trail far behind the world in youth development
I agree though. It starts before that with our youth sports. It's a commonly known soccer is a pay for play sport, pricing out thousands as they get beyond little leauge. We also don't have a culture of clubs getting cuts out of contracts their players get when they go pro. It's expected the family bears the burden of training which leads to kids who have no business being there getting the training while others are left out.
Dempsey only got there because his sister tragically died when she was a senior and the family was able to pay for Clint to be on a club team from dallas. He didn't play in a playoff game for his high school because he instead played in a tournament for his club team. Great move for him, sucked for the team as they lost their only one of the season. How many kids would have chose the school team instead of the exposure?
It's common trope around here that our best pro athletes wouldn't make a difference if they were on the usmnt. That'd be different if they chose soccer at a young age instead football, basketball or baseball. It's not easy, both socially and practically, to make that choice. A soccer first achane running down the right wing. A soccer first kc conception running down the left.
Our best athletes choose different sports. The world's choose soccer. Until you can incentivize something different and then provide the same sort of training and/or benefits those atheltes get today, we will never get over the hump
I can guarantee we will never get there without massively improving men's ncaa soccer. It's the easiest route we could take. Asking the MLS is a non starter. They simply are not big enough.
Asking the ussf to do it is also a non starter. America is too big and they are too distracted to implement any sort of replacement program.
100%, I dont think we are missing our 'best' athletes but getting MORE of them into the system early could only result in more elite players
JDUB08AG said:
Soccer is on the up in this country. It's been a fun ride.
Pahdz said:
Good post but considering the current state of college sports it's a laughable wish and one that won't fix anything.
The only fix that will never happen is a come to Jesus with USSF, MLS, et al (USL, all youth leagues like ECNL and EA) that resets soccer in America to be like the FA in England. Pro/rel, proper youth development pathway, discovery fees....all of it. As it stands now it's way too many hands in the cookie jar and everyone has only their best interest in mind.
It's funny how we at our core as a nation are rugged individualistic and that's great for everything, but being a great footballing nation requires a collective that nobody in charge is willing to push.
It's the only socialistic thing I'd ever get behind.
Who?mikejones! said:PatAg said:Who?mikejones! said:TXAggie2011 said:Who?mikejones! said:Frok said:
Why is there no mens college soccer in America?
If we truly want to be good then promote the sport rather than eliminate it for title 9
Actuslly a big part of the problem. It's pay to play, so dudes like dempsey get overlooked for lack of opportunity.
Then, without a strong college program, men's soccer is relegated to thr basement without a sufficient development program in its stead.
The reason we're sp dominate at Olympic sports is mostly due to our college sports and thr billions it pours into elite training.
Men's soccer misses out on that and there's no real alternate program. The MLS has tried. Useful has tried. But nothing can fill that void in the current landscape.
We have 205 division 1 men's soccer teams each with the ability to hand out 28 scholarships each, including at many of the richest, biggest athletic departments in the country. Opportunity at the college level is almost certainly not our problem. The problem starts before college.
It works for football, baseball, softball, mens and women's basketball, swimming, baseball, softball, track and field, women's soccer, womens volleyball and others.
Most all of those men's soccer programs are at small schools. And it simply existing isn't sufficient. It needs to get into schools like tamu, or Texas or the sec or big 12. Espn needs to promote it like it does womens basketball.
The point is the ncaa is americans youth sports development program. It's been great for most sports. It not surprising in the sports where the ncaa lacks- soccer, rugby, others- we trail far behind the world in youth development
I agree though. It starts before that with our youth sports. It's a commonly known soccer is a pay for play sport, pricing out thousands as they get beyond little leauge. We also don't have a culture of clubs getting cuts out of contracts their players get when they go pro. It's expected the family bears the burden of training which leads to kids who have no business being there getting the training while others are left out.
Dempsey only got there because his sister tragically died when she was a senior and the family was able to pay for Clint to be on a club team from dallas. He didn't play in a playoff game for his high school because he instead played in a tournament for his club team. Great move for him, sucked for the team as they lost their only one of the season. How many kids would have chose the school team instead of the exposure?
It's common trope around here that our best pro athletes wouldn't make a difference if they were on the usmnt. That'd be different if they chose soccer at a young age instead football, basketball or baseball. It's not easy, both socially and practically, to make that choice. A soccer first achane running down the right wing. A soccer first kc conception running down the left.
Our best athletes choose different sports. The world's choose soccer. Until you can incentivize something different and then provide the same sort of training and/or benefits those atheltes get today, we will never get over the hump
I can guarantee we will never get there without massively improving men's ncaa soccer. It's the easiest route we could take. Asking the MLS is a non starter. They simply are not big enough.
Asking the ussf to do it is also a non starter. America is too big and they are too distracted to implement any sort of replacement program.
100%, I dont think we are missing our 'best' athletes but getting MORE of them into the system early could only result in more elite players
That and providing the training and facilities etc for the ones that do stick with it. Imagine ncaa soccer being close to what ncaa baseball is. Even that sort of small improvement would, imo, give us a much better chance of providing enough higher level instruction to gap those years between high school and whatevers next.
We don't have a farm system like they do in the rest of the world. Kids get into pro academies so earlier every where else. Ours generally go to high school and then college. Our high schools and college must be where we develop our elite talent as they are practically the only developmental league in town.
I had a good friend who played tennis at Stanford. Won a couple national championship and the Arthur ashe award. He said it was the worst decision in his life to play in college instead of turning pro because the competition simply wasn't good enough to develop him in those key years.
It the same with soccer. The usa lacks a substantial enough development program between about 15 and 22 to really make in drastic overall improvements. Its going to be more of the same for the foreseeable future
ccaggie05 said:
I don't think D1 soccer is the answer. That means players are in their early 20s before they pursue soccer professionally playing against far inferior talent. That puts them far behind the competition.
The top footballing countries have kids going into professional youth academies with top talent playing professionally as young as 16. Many of these players are loaned out to get first team experience professionally, especially with a big club where there isn't much room for youth in the first team. I believe the MLS academies and even USL academies are trying to use that model. If the academies get good enough they can sell top players to Europe. Will theirs ever work? I don't know, but I think it's the only option we have to improve, along with killing the pay to play system for youth soccer.
Jarrin Jay said:
The "best athletes not playing soccer" narrative is BS. We have the best athletes FOR SOCCER, playing soccer. Many of these guys play at big clubs in Euro leagues and are starters, some mid table clubs but still in major Euro leagues. Any athlete you could name that plays another major US sport would not be better at whatever position you envision they could play than any of the current USMNT starters (Ream and GK maybe being an exception, Freeman maybe as well).
They just played terrible today. In particular Pulisic and Dest were AWFUL, and they would not be staters for their teams (ACM and PSV) if that was their average performance.
Nerves, anxiety, the Balogun thing IMHO actually HURT our chances, not playing well in the big moments, a comedy of errors on goals 1 and 3, lack of commitment to attack and win the ball when it counted (1st goal).
This was a successful WC, just ended with a dud turd sandwich. It will not be seen that way though by the majority of Americans. This team needed to win this game and get to the QFs vs Spain to really change a narrative. As it is, same old s***.
I really like many of the players we have…. But the one thing that gnaws at me is I don't see anyone on that field with the heart of a lion like Dempsey had in his prime.
Diego Luna, still just 22, can be a difference maker in the future I think/hope.
I think Elko is changing things, but the USMNT is very much like historical Aggie football, always very good, hardly ever good enough to really take the next step. Maddening.
Hopefully Pochettino stays, but he learned a lot about #10 and several others today, not necessarily good either. His HT adjustments were excellent and working until the looney tunes 3rd goal.
Who?mikejones! said:ccaggie05 said:
I don't think D1 soccer is the answer. That means players are in their early 20s before they pursue soccer professionally playing against far inferior talent. That puts them far behind the competition.
The top footballing countries have kids going into professional youth academies with top talent playing professionally as young as 16. Many of these players are loaned out to get first team experience professionally, especially with a big club where there isn't much room for youth in the first team. I believe the MLS academies and even USL academies are trying to use that model. If the academies get good enough they can sell top players to Europe. Will theirs ever work? I don't know, but I think it's the only option we have to improve, along with killing the pay to play system for youth soccer.
Certainly a valid point. I doubt there is a single player on a euro team that didn't start professional soccer beyind 16. But, I dont see how we can do it. That culture just doesn't exist here.
