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80,000 A&M students in 10 years

291,654 Views | 1687 Replies | Last: 10 mo ago by Bill Superman
bagger05
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quote:
Liberal arts are part of a well rounded university. Just because they don't get recruited at the same level, doesn't mean there isn't inherent value.
This is often ignored.

The reason that we have people become scientists and engineers is so that society as a whole can have more time and resources to spend writing poetry and studying art history.
Captain Augustus McCrae
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as a land grant college, A&M was established to provide higher education to students who, for reasons financial or related to academic preparation, could not obtain admission to Baylor, tu, Haavod, Yale, or the "top 10" or "top 20" universities of the day.

That's false.
Captain Augustus McCrae
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USC and Darmouth both were land grand colleges. That historical fact shouldn't drive what we strive for today.
Ding Ding Ding

I'll never understand some Aggies' preoccupation with the minor fact that A&M was originally a land grant college. Land grant colleges are no longer necessary because colleges that serve that purpose are now a dime a dozen. A&M outgrew its land grant mission, it outgrew its mission to be a military college, it outgrew its mission to only educate young men, and it'll continue to grow into a top 10 university because that's what the state needs. The mission of A&M will continue to evolve to serve the state's needs.
Captain Augustus McCrae
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Other colleges that outgrew their landgrant mission:

UC-Berkeley (the top ranked public university)
MIT
Cornell
Most state Flagships ( University of Florida, University of Georgia, University of Arizona, University of Illinois Urban-Champagne, University of Maryland, UMass, Ohio State, Penn State, LSU, University of Wisconsin, etc.)
Sid Farkas
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Aggie1
cecil77
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I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.
--- John Adams
Knife_Party
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quote:
Other colleges that outgrew their landgrant mission:

UC-Berkeley (the top ranked public university)
MIT
Cornell
Most state Flagships ( University of Florida, University of Georgia, University of Arizona, University of Illinois Urban-Champagne, University of Maryland, UMass, Ohio State, Penn State, LSU, University of Wisconsin, etc.)


A lot of those listed are AMAZING academic institutions that pump out excellent research across the board. I'm most concerned with the 25x25 crap and growing the student population without the necessary infrastructure in place both on campus and off.
lb3
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GregZeppelin
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quote:
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Deleted for post size reduction.


Ok, I agree with a lot of what I think you are saying. What you call nostalgia I call life in the real world after leaving high school. I had counsel and encouragement from A&M graduates from the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's.

My concept of the "value" of a degree from a university is determined by the cost of the degree as well as the opportunities (social and economic) the degree affords the recipient. I think some have posted a concern that the value of their degree is diminished if A&M increases enrollment and affords more students the opportunity to obtain a degree in the same field as they. Maybe it will be cause for concern...that is life, this is Texas, USA, and there is not a better place on earth for them to deal with such a problem than right here.....they are indeed fortunate.

I can most certainly assure you the concern you express regarding graduates leaving A&M with lots of debt and no job prospects is not the result of the mentality of folk like myself. I acquired enuff maths in high school to figure what four years at A&M would cost, what I could earn with a bs in civil engineering, and what I could earn working without the degree. I determined the degree had VALUE. I determined other degrees had no value to me as I could go to work and earn more. Somewhere between then and now the student loan program easy money enabled stupidity to flourish. I suspect some schools were as stupid as some students. I always heard that A&M had the lowest student loan default numbers in the nation. That may have been nostalgia, however, as I did not have internet access back then to verify the accuracy of the statement.

I did not know just any college degree would help get a job for an applicant over another without it. I know in times past a 21 yr old with a few years work experience and modest ability supervised guys who had their masters and doctorate degrees. These were not pleasant times, and as I write this I've wondered if any had doubts as to the value of their degree. Thing is, it wasn't that the degree was insignificant, it just wasn't relevant at the time and the task at hand. But times change.

Lastly, consider this if you will please. What would be the response or reaction if the universities, or state legislatures, determined which degrees were valuable? For example, to achieve the 25 x 25 initiative with the engineering college or STEM curriculum, say resources were redistributed at the A&M main campus to achieve the goal. You know, do away with those programs or departments which are determined to add no real value to what Texas really needs today and in the future. Yeah, that's the ticket.....I dare say the resulting ****storm would turn my nostalgia to wisdom in a heartbeat.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying in this post. But my primary point was that there was a time when having a college degree was a much less common thing, and having it let people know that you were smart enough, hard working enough, and dedicated enough to having a successful career. That definitely helped raise college graduates above the crowd.

Today, there are colleges and universities all over the place, cranking out graduates like Henry Ford's production lines, and it really doesn't take much effort to get a college degree at most of them. Having a degree from Southwest Temple State isn't going to raise any eyebrows. It isn't going to impress anyone that you went to a school where pretty much anyone who applies gets in.

The reality is that intelligence, hard work, and dedication will eventually get you ahead regardless of whether you have a degree, or where it's from. But if you work hard in high school, and go to a more prestigious college, with competitive admissions standards and a rigorous curriculum, that's a big flashing sign that you're probably a better hire than your production line educated competition, and that's what will help get you in the door for that good first job opportunity to kick start your career.

Today Texas has UT & A&M to educate the best and brightest students who can't afford elite private schools, but want some of those same advantages. It's obvious that Texas has grown, and that more kids need access to high quality education in the state, but if A&M tries to do that on their own, they are just going to reduce the competitiveness of admissions, and have to water down and standardize the curriculum in order to be able to implement it for an unmanageable large student body. And all that is going to do is make A&M more on par with the less impressive schools, which will only worsen Texas' higher education issues, by leaving UT as the only in-state option that will afford those advantages, unless and until Tech or UH steps up. And that's an everybody loses outcome for the state.

The best way A&M can serve the state in today's world is to maintain high standards, competitive admissions, and high educational quality. If there are more high level applicants than can be educated at UT and A&M today, then the state needs to raise up another school to join their ranks, not throw open the doors of one of the two existing flagships thereby jeopardizing its status as a top tier university altogether.
runontexas
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UTSA will top A&M with those admission standards

#UHurdItHere1st
vettmaster99
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For those of you crowing about high GPAs, I can assure you that sometimes that doesn't mean those individuals are necessarily "high quality" students. I know several students who got higher grades just by memorizing old exams in some classes and didn't learn a damn thing.
civil77
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Earlier a comment was made suggesting the Blinn Team or gateway program be eliminated. I have the opinion these programs are worthwhile and should be continued. The land grant schools afforded students of modest financial and academic means the opportunity to advance their education. The cost was affordable and the admission requirements were not strict so as to deny a student with a "B" average the opportunity to begin classes......and if they could meet grade requirements , be allowed to continue and complete their degree. The Blinn Team, Gateway, and TAMU Galveston programs are the means by which this alternative approach to admission to A&M College Station is accomplished today.

Promoting or advancing a particular area of university interest, be it engineering, business, diversity, atheletics, or social studies to the detriment of other areas of interests, (art, music, liberal arts, medicine, student services, etc.) is divisive and dertrimental.

The 25 x 25 initiative is ambitious to the extent it is difficult to imagine how it can succeed without negatively affecting A&M. It is likely considered by some to be comparable to admitting women and allowing voluntary Corps membership. Only with great leadership can it be accomplished.

I've enjoyed the exchange of ideas and opinions. Ya'll have a good evening!
cecil77
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If were going to talk historical roots and "land grant" then look at it as Texas A&M (the system) is the land grant institution that can and should provide that affordable education. It might be in Stephenville or Kingsville, but Texas A&M can make it available.
Personal Best
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I don't think the reputation of the flagship campus should be sacrificed so a 'B student' can 'have a shot' at a top tier education.

If they are a B student, they have earned and should receive a tier 2 education.

I agree that student of all financial situations should have access to top colleges, but lumping those with financial obstacles in with those who are mediocre academically is confusing and unnecessary.
TXAggie2011
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TXAggie2011
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Quote:Meanwhile, please allow us mere mortals the hope that A&M remains steadfast to the ideals upon which it was founded...... as a land grant college, A&M was established to provide higher education to students who, for reasons financial or related to academic preparation, could not obtain admission to Baylor, tu, Haavod, Yale, or the "top 10" or "top 20" universities of the day.

Not really. A&M was created to turn out engineers and agriculturalists during a period of mass-industrialization and a massively under educated populace. It wasn't created to be and forever be the bargain education.

While we still need to increase access, A&M was created at a time when there were literally too few universities to grow. Further, Congress reasoned growing current universities wasn't the solution- Texas A&M was created for similar reasons we are now using to argue against growing the flagship A&M campus. Sometimes growing the main campus isn't the right thing to do. Sometimes the better solution is growing another campus (or perhaps creating a new campus)

Times have changed. And as has been noted, several other land grant colleges have realized times were a-changing and their mission was no longer- or probably never was- to try to cater to masses of kids who couldn't get in/afford better colleges.

Our mission was once defined as providing that engineering and agricultural education to white males who wanted to join the military. Do you want us to go back to those times, too?


In the course of developing the minds and character of these students, and through the work ethic and capabilities demonstrated by its faculty and former students, A&M acquired a reputation as the best place in Texas to obtain a degree in agriculture and engineering. This reputation, or "ranking" was not conferred, or possibly even shared, by the likes of USN&WR, DMN, or the WSJ. It was conferred by the PARENTS of the sons and daughters whom they could afford to send to A&M, together with the individuals, companies, and organizations which hired the Former Students.

There will always be a majority who believe this is the only ranking which matters.

I'm not exactly sure what that all means, but our concern is A&M will lose its place as the "best" agriculture and engineering institute in the state. I think for many, that's already happened and I'm sure for many, they don't see A&M as providing any better an education in those two areas than they can get in Austin and other towns around this state.

If you think A&M is providing a great education, I don't see why you want to risk it by growing the campus rapidly. There are so many other campuses around this state that have the ability to grow.

bagger05
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The 25 x 25 initiative is ambitious to the extent it is difficult to imagine how it can succeed without negatively affecting A&M. It is likely considered by some to be comparable to admitting women and allowing voluntary Corps membership. Only with great leadership can it be accomplished.

Please explain how 25x25 and the Rudder changes are similar.

TIA
jml2621
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quote:
quote:
Other colleges that outgrew their landgrant mission:

UC-Berkeley (the top ranked public university)
MIT
Cornell
Most state Flagships ( University of Florida, University of Georgia, University of Arizona, University of Illinois Urban-Champagne, University of Maryland, UMass, Ohio State, Penn State, LSU, University of Wisconsin, etc.)


A lot of those listed are AMAZING academic institutions that pump out excellent research across the board. I'm most concerned with the 25x25 crap and growing the student population without the necessary infrastructure in place both on campus and off.
25 years ago, A&M was 6th in research funding in the nation.
vettmaster99
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Using that logic, all those mediocre "B" student athletes should just go to Tech and UofH too? You can't have it both ways.

I for one was 'Given a shot' and have out performed most of my high-school classmates who had higher GPAs than me. In fact, I made it all the way to grad-school despite some of the standards you 4.0 students have set for everyone else.
vettmaster99
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Anyway, I get why some are upset and I agree in most regards. However, I think the only fix is to hope you have excellent evaluators of student applicants, in addition to the given admission criteria. I'm all for reducing student population but don't set unrealistic expectations unless you are prepared to deal with the consequences.
civil77
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quote:
The 25 x 25 initiative is ambitious to the extent it is difficult to imagine how it can succeed without negatively affecting A&M. It is likely considered by some to be comparable to admitting women and allowing voluntary Corps membership. Only with great leadership can it be accomplished.

Please explain how 25x25 and the Rudder changes are similar.

TIA
It is my opinion that 25 x 25 is perceived by many to be a detriment to A&M, just as the Rudder changes were.
bmks270
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Already an acceptance rate of 70%....!

What a freaking joke.

How does A&M get to 80,000 students without moving the acceptance rate up to 100%

Do That many people even apply?

A&M is becoming average and will have the same value as a Houston or Tech degree.
TXAggie2011
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Using that logic, all those mediocre "B" student athletes should just go to Tech and UofH too? You can't have it both ways.

I for one was 'Given a shot' and have out performed most of my high-school classmates who had higher GPAs than me. In fact, I made it all the way to grad-school despite some of the standards you 4.0 students have set for everyone else.


I think you're a great example that admissions staff shouldn't depend solely on GPA and test scores, but I have to imagine they're a decent indicator and might be about the best we can do.
bagger05
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quote:
quote:
quote:
The 25 x 25 initiative is ambitious to the extent it is difficult to imagine how it can succeed without negatively affecting A&M. It is likely considered by some to be comparable to admitting women and allowing voluntary Corps membership. Only with great leadership can it be accomplished.

Please explain how 25x25 and the Rudder changes are similar.

TIA
It is my opinion that 25 x 25 is perceived by many to be a detriment to A&M, just as the Rudder changes were.

Seems to me that by saying the Rudder changes and 25x25 are similar you're implying that people who are opposed to 25x25 are like the people who thought A&M should remain an all-male small military college.

I think 25x25 is a terrible idea. What do you think about it?
Personal Best
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Using that logic, all those mediocre "B" student athletes should just go to Tech and UofH too? You can't have it both ways.

I for one was 'Given a shot' and have out performed most of my high-school classmates who had higher GPAs than me. In fact, I made it all the way to grad-school despite some of the standards you 4.0 students have set for everyone else.


Congrats on your success... But we all know that athletes have different standards for admission. To flip your point, if A&M were to lower the admissions standards to the athlete level for the general student population, A&M would literally become Texas state or UTSA.. Maybe even Blinn.

As a student athlete you did a lot more for A&M than most though, and that's why academic standards are adjusted.
VanZandt92
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It is just sad that we were on such a great track with Vision 2020 and then just dumped the program.

I toured my kid through UNC the other day. he still wants to be an Ag though.
Womackster
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For those of you crowing about high GPAs, I can assure you that sometimes that doesn't mean those individuals are necessarily "high quality" students. I know several students who got higher grades just by memorizing old exams in some classes and didn't learn a damn thing.
Quit being defensive about your low GPA
mhayden
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For those of you crowing about high GPAs, I can assure you that sometimes that doesn't mean those individuals are necessarily "high quality" students. I know several students who got higher grades just by memorizing old exams in some classes and didn't learn a damn thing.

Which means they were smarter than the students who got lower grades because they couldn't manage to just memorize the old exams...

Since there's no true way to measure one's intelligence or potential, some standard has to be created... Which is where you get your GPA/SAT/Whatever-test-kids-take-now.

Do those do a great job measuring intelligence? Probably not... But I'd say that they establish some rules to the game and those who are able to play the game better than others shows a degree of intelligence.

Is the kid who got a 4.0 smarter than the kid who got a 3.0? Maybe not... But the kid that got a 4.0 was certainly smarter when it comes to playing the game.
Ackley
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Let me see if I have this argument right:
1. Texas A&M should be accessible to students that can't afford college
2. Blinn Team helps accomplish number 1
3. Students that can afford to move away from home and go to community college in another city are more deserving than students that stay at home to save money and get the exact same community college education in their hometown
Ackley
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What's wrong with someone going to SFA for a year and then transferring to A&M?
vettmaster99
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I never said I had a low GPA lol. Some are just pissed A&M is not admitting only 4.0 students.
object_observe
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When you're looking that far in the future there is another school which needs to be considered. Today, Texas State **pause for eye roll and/or laughing** has an acceptance rate of 73.8% and is in a geographically advantageous location between two growing cities. In 5-10 years it should easily pass Tech as the #3 public university in the state (it already has a larger enrollment than Tech). If A&M continues to move down it will likely meet Texas State in the middle as it moves up in the world.
VanZandt92
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When you're looking that far in the future there is another school which needs to be considered. Today, Texas State **pause for eye roll and/or laughing** has an acceptance rate of 73.8% and is in a geographically advantageous location between two growing cities. In 5-10 years it should easily pass Tech as the #3 public university in the state (it already has a larger enrollment than Tech). If A&M continues to move down it will likely meet Texas State in the middle as it moves up in the world.


Thank Rick Perry and the reformers. Never has such a great university fallen so quickly, esp after rising so fast.
GregZeppelin
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When you're looking that far in the future there is another school which needs to be considered. Today, Texas State **pause for eye roll and/or laughing** has an acceptance rate of 73.8% and is in a geographically advantageous location between two growing cities. In 5-10 years it should easily pass Tech as the #3 public university in the state (it already has a larger enrollment than Tech). If A&M continues to move down it will likely meet Texas State in the middle as it moves up in the world.


I would agree regarding Texas State. That school has made great strides over the last 10 years or so.
FightingAggie
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quote:
quote:
When you're looking that far in the future there is another school which needs to be considered. Today, Texas State **pause for eye roll and/or laughing** has an acceptance rate of 73.8% and is in a geographically advantageous location between two growing cities. In 5-10 years it should easily pass Tech as the #3 public university in the state (it already has a larger enrollment than Tech). If A&M continues to move down it will likely meet Texas State in the middle as it moves up in the world.


I would agree regarding Texas State. That school has made great strides over the last 10 years or so.


Plus they have that T star on their seal.
 
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