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80,000 A&M students in 10 years

285,845 Views | 1687 Replies | Last: 5 mo ago by Bill Superman
cecil77
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quote:
The only people who think Baylor is a better or more prestigious school than A&M are Baylor grads.


That's certainly the way it should be, and the way we wanted it to be. But as unthinkable as it is, it's changing. The much vaunted and much maligned yet widely followed USN rankings have us at 68 and BU at 71. It's very likely they'll pass us the next year or two. SMU at 58 as moved well ahead of us.

Denigrate the rankings all you want, but they are noticed and create just the sort of perceptions that we find so unthinkable.
Saint Arnold
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quote:
True. But hey, if our football team wins, the money will keep rolling in and that's all that matters. Right?
Putting the athletic logo on the academic seal is big step tying it all together.
Sex Panther
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quote:
quote:
The only people who think Baylor is a better or more prestigious school than A&M are Baylor grads.


That's certainly the way it should be, and the way we wanted it to be. But as unthinkable as it is, it's changing. The much vaunted and much maligned yet widely followed USN rankings have us at 68 and BU at 71. It's very likely they'll pass us the next year or two. SMU at 58 as moved well ahead of us.

Denigrate the rankings all you want, but they are noticed and create just the sort of perceptions that we find so unthinkable.


I'm not denigrating the rankings, I agree with everything you've said.
Fitch
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^
That's on point.

I don't think anyone is fighting change at A&M. What has people concerned is undermining all the work that's been done to date to elevate the university in recent years. Pushing to aggressively expand without allowing the time for the colleges and support systems to keep up is flirting with disaster.

Take the example of the 25 by 25 program being pushed on engineering. That's not only going to swell the ranks of that particular college but every other one that then has to receive the overflow students that couldn't hack it. Where's the support and staff hiring for those colleges that are suddenly the recipients of an extra 1,000 kids?

You want to grow the university enrollment? Fine, we've been doing that for decades even above the standard 2-3% annual growth. But concerted expansion for the sake of just covering the bills is a poor strategy and is just addressing the symptoms of a system that doesn't work well. If the growth were primarily in new colleges - like the law school or medical branch - then that's a different story.
TXAggie2011
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quote:
I wonder how many now discredited da's from the 50's/60's still alive today are willing to admit they opposed opening the university to non-regs, women...worried it would irrevocably change the school for the worse?

How many of you are willing to second guess Rudder for ramping up enrollment back in the day?

Some people just have a blind spot re: the future
No one. But this isn't about sexism, racism, general distaste of equality, or realizing an all-male military college is, in its very nature, a completely different kind of animal than non-military schools and making the choice, for better or worse, of being more like Virginia and less like VMI.

This is about one or more of the following, depending on your particular viewpoint:

1) A fear that we can't grow this fast, this quick, in this current environment without hurting the quality of the education. Many budgets are getting cut, they're not growing. At the least, many budgets are not growing at a rate that there is- and what I believe as legitimate-fear that we will have to start spending less money per student, among many other fears. That's not desirable, at all. That means larger classes, that means less hands on work in lab settings, that means all sorts of things.

The solution would be to raise tuition. Except, ideally, you raise tuition because the quality of education is improving. We'd be raising tuition to sustain a good, not great, education. That model doesn't fit any side of this argument.

2) A fear our primary education system cannot, under current circumstances, produce quality high school graduates at a rate fast enough to fill our spots and, thus, lowering the quality of student on our flagship campus. This is secondary, but Texas' primary schools are hardly running along at full steam right now. They're struggling to keep up, often for the same budgetary reasons secondary education is struggling to keep up.

In 10 years, will we have 30,000 more students capable of scoring the same SAT that our student body is scoring right now?

If you don't think so, that means we're going to be filling our in-state quota with less-qualified students.

Last year, our state had one of the worst average SAT scores in the country.

3) Some actually want A&M to increase the quality of its academics, not just sustain its quality of academics. This plays off of my second point.

I believe in accessible education for all students, but I do not think growing flagship campuses is the organ for that. There are 10 other Texas A&M campuses for that. In my mind, the flagship campus should foster a high quality, difficult, and elite educational experience.

We should have different products, for different people with different skills and/or seeking different experiences.

Let's grow Kingsville, let's grow Commerce, let's grow San Antonio, let's grow Central Texas- they are close to growing populations with lots of kids that are looking for a different kind of experience than what more, for sincere want of a different term, "elite" universities provide.

Those schools are close to populations, have plenty of room to stretch their legs, and can help provide a variety of educational products without running the risk of hurting the flagship campus and maybe even helping improve the flagship campus.
Ranger1743
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quote:
quote:
I know one current freshman who came to A&M, in his own words, "even though Baylor has a better engineering school, and is a better school in general." That is our perception right now. This isn't about expanding at acceptable rates 50 years ago, this is about expanding too fast in the face of diminishing quality TODAY.
One of my buddies went to Baylor from 94 - 98. Graduated with the same major I have. Paid at least twice as much for the degree. Had a harder time getting a job. Still doesn't make as much money as I do by about $40K a year.

He told me that graduating from Baylor was more prestigious. I will have to take his word for that.

Baylor = greater prestige
Baylor = greater debt
Baylor = less income

My buddy can keep the prestige. I will continue to smile when I look at my bank account.





I completely agree with you. But when high schoolers start to think Baylor is better, it will become better. A&M is better in every sense right now, but we have to keep it that way.
Sid Farkas
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quote:
quote:
I wonder how many now discredited da's from the 50's/60's still alive today are willing to admit they opposed opening the university to non-regs, women...worried it would irrevocably change the school for the worse?

How many of you are willing to second guess Rudder for ramping up enrollment back in the day?

Some people just have a blind spot re: the future


This is a red herring and has a trivial place in this discussion. By this logic ALL change is good. ANY opposition to ANY change is just lack being against non-regs and women. Well, no. It's not.
Not quite. The implication isn't that you're misogynistic or anti-non-reg...its that you unable to envision the future

...and the Rudder/enrollment analogy couldn't be any more relevant.
bagger05
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quote:
quote:
quote:
I wonder how many now discredited da's from the 50's/60's still alive today are willing to admit they opposed opening the university to non-regs, women...worried it would irrevocably change the school for the worse?

How many of you are willing to second guess Rudder for ramping up enrollment back in the day?

Some people just have a blind spot re: the future


This is a red herring and has a trivial place in this discussion. By this logic ALL change is good. ANY opposition to ANY change is just lack being against non-regs and women. Well, no. It's not.
Not quite. The implication isn't that you're misogynistic or anti-non-reg...its that you unable to envision the future

...and the Rudder/enrollment analogy couldn't be any more relevant.
How is it relevant?

How is making A&M more like serious education institutions in 1963 analogous to making A&M more like Florida International in 2015?
Personal Best
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quote:
quote:
quote:
I wonder how many now discredited da's from the 50's/60's still alive today are willing to admit they opposed opening the university to non-regs, women...worried it would irrevocably change the school for the worse?

How many of you are willing to second guess Rudder for ramping up enrollment back in the day?

Some people just have a blind spot re: the future


This is a red herring and has a trivial place in this discussion. By this logic ALL change is good. ANY opposition to ANY change is just lack being against non-regs and women. Well, no. It's not.
Not quite. The implication isn't that you're misogynistic or anti-non-reg...its that you unable to envision the future

...and the Rudder/enrollment analogy couldn't be any more relevant.


Actually, you're wrong
TXAggie2011
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quote:
quote:
quote:
I wonder how many now discredited da's from the 50's/60's still alive today are willing to admit they opposed opening the university to non-regs, women...worried it would irrevocably change the school for the worse?

How many of you are willing to second guess Rudder for ramping up enrollment back in the day?

Some people just have a blind spot re: the future


This is a red herring and has a trivial place in this discussion. By this logic ALL change is good. ANY opposition to ANY change is just lack being against non-regs and women. Well, no. It's not.
Not quite. The implication isn't that you're misogynistic or anti-non-reg...its that you unable to envision the future

...and the Rudder/enrollment analogy couldn't be any more relevant.


Are you ever going to respond with an actual argument with actual support for your assertion you've hit the holy grail of analogies...or are you going to keep asserting you're right and never back that up with any support?
cecil77
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Not quite. The implication isn't that you're misogynistic or anti-non-reg...its that you unable to envision the future

...and the Rudder/enrollment analogy couldn't be any more relevant.


Just piling on here, but yeah, this argument has been eloquently rebuffed in several posts above.

But I'd be interested in a response to my contention of the counter argument that if the Rudder analogy holds, then one must never be against ANY change.
GregZeppelin
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quote:
quote:
quote:
I wonder how many now discredited da's from the 50's/60's still alive today are willing to admit they opposed opening the university to non-regs, women...worried it would irrevocably change the school for the worse?

How many of you are willing to second guess Rudder for ramping up enrollment back in the day?

Some people just have a blind spot re: the future


This is a red herring and has a trivial place in this discussion. By this logic ALL change is good. ANY opposition to ANY change is just lack being against non-regs and women. Well, no. It's not.
Not quite. The implication isn't that you're misogynistic or anti-non-reg...its that you unable to envision the future

...and the Rudder/enrollment analogy couldn't be any more relevant.
So if A&M's current trajectory is is being done with an insightful eye towards the future why aren't any other elite public universities around the state or country pushing for 80,000 students?

UNC, UVA, Michigan, UC-Berkeley, UCLA, Georgia Tech, UT-Austin, etc? I don't know of any of those schools looking to throw open the doors like A&M is.

There was a time when A&M made great strides towards joining their ranks as the best of the best in public university education, including the expansion period under Rudder, and we made those strides by by emulating the universities who already were what we wanted to be.

Now you're on here arguing that the best course of action for the future is to emulate schools like Arizona State and Central Florida which are basically considered 4 year community colleges? And you think that's somehow going to be good for A&M?
TXAggie2011
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By the way, Sid, what is the value you see in growing the flagship campus this quickly?

And I'm not accepting more hot chicks as a response.
gopgabe
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GUYS GUYS I have an idea.

What if we DO something?

Anyone have an idea of how to deal with the board of retards and "Sharp as sharp cheese"? I don't want to have wasted 4 years for a degree which will be devalued in less. To anyone saying zoo is a good thing, think of what you're saying:

In a world where the things are becoming increasingly competitive, I'm willing to turn my degree into one produced by a mill.

I get the concept of wanting to educate the public, but that's NOT what the flagship is for.
TXAggie2011
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GUYS GUYS I have an idea.

What if we DO something?

Anyone have an idea of how to deal with the board of retards and "Sharp as sharp cheese"? I don't want to have wasted 4 years for a degree which will be devalued in less. To anyone saying zoo is a good thing, think of what you're saying:

In a world where the things are becoming increasingly competitive, I'm willing to turn my degree into one produced by a mill.

I get the concept of wanting to educate the public, but that's NOT what the flagship is for.


I've on several occasions considered drafting a petition asking for his resignation, but I'm not sure that's best way to deal with this or not...
cecil77
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Sadly the best way is to hang on to your money. And that would have to include the TMF. Other than that, believe it or not, these forums are monitored and read. So cogent, well thought out posts do have the potential help, even if just a little.
Fitch
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Sadly the best way is to hang on to your money. And that would have to include the TMF. Other than that, believe it or not, these forums are monitored and read. So cogent, well thought out posts do have the potential help, even if just a little.
Definitely correct on the latter part. Doesn't hurt to pen a letter or email, as well.
M.C. Swag
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Can someone point exactly to the source of this? I haven't seen any quotes from Sharp in regards to expanding enrollment to 80k. Where/when did he supposedly say this?
Sooo no one can point to the source of these comments that everyone is freaking out about?
JeffHamilton82
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This appears to be the current budget
http://budget.tamu.edu/media/376896/fy2015-board-budget-tamu.pdf
Ranger1743
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quote:
quote:
GUYS GUYS I have an idea.

What if we DO something?

Anyone have an idea of how to deal with the board of retards and "Sharp as sharp cheese"? I don't want to have wasted 4 years for a degree which will be devalued in less. To anyone saying zoo is a good thing, think of what you're saying:

In a world where the things are becoming increasingly competitive, I'm willing to turn my degree into one produced by a mill.

I get the concept of wanting to educate the public, but that's NOT what the flagship is for.


I've on several occasions considered drafting a petition asking for his resignation, but I'm not sure that's best way to deal with this or not...


I would sign it.
Sid Farkas
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quote:
quote:
Can someone point exactly to the source of this? I haven't seen any quotes from Sharp in regards to expanding enrollment to 80k. Where/when did he supposedly say this?
Sooo no one can point to the source of these comments that everyone is freaking out about?
Yeah...I figure a statement re: such a 'sharp' increase in enrollment would find some Google hits.

I googled 'john Sharp 80000 Texas a&m'...Closest thing I could find was this:
http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/sponsor-content-growth-engineering-education

...a sponsored article in TMthly.

The number 80000 shows up in the article, but it doesnt have anything to do with projected enrollment. Maybe someone else can find it.
gopgabe
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Yeah, not sure exactly what the petition would say or whether it would be effective. Im not familiar at all with how university policy is shaped, modified, or complained about.

If only it was possible to kick em out
bobbranco
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When I got to campus in the fall of 1973, the old shops were still there. Lathes, welding machines, etc. At one point long ago every Aggie had to know how to use them. We don't need to drift back in that direction.


So A&M will turn into ITT Tech? Hah!

I will say that one of my children did not attend A&M but another engineering school in another state.

That school probably graduates 1 or 2 English & History majors per year.

And the engineers from that school do not suffer the consequences of the missing liberal arts education.

This need to elevate the liberal arts for engineers is only to further the guilds stranglehold on education.
M.C. Swag
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Can someone point exactly to the source of this? I haven't seen any quotes from Sharp in regards to expanding enrollment to 80k. Where/when did he supposedly say this?
Sooo no one can point to the source of these comments that everyone is freaking out about?
Yeah...I figure a statement re: such a 'sharp' increase in enrollment would find some Google hits.

I googled 'john Sharp 80000 Texas a&m'...Closest thing I could find was this:
http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/sponsor-content-growth-engineering-education

...a sponsored article in TMthly.

The number 80000 shows up in the article, but it doesnt have anything to do with projected enrollment. Maybe someone else can find it.
Exactly. This whole thread is pointless. We're getting riled up over a statement that may never have been made.
gopgabe
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As if it hasn't been heavily implied. The engineering department here has shown they are going to be bringing enrollment up drastically. The departments will have PLENTY of excess students. I think it's clear from the seal fiasco that those idiots (Sharp, BOR, various retards) could give a damn about the student body's interests.
M.C. Swag
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quote:
As if it hasn't been heavily implied. The engineering department here has shown they are going to be bringing enrollment up drastically. The departments will have PLENTY of excess students. I think it's clear from the seal fiasco that those idiots (Sharp, BOR, various retards) could give a damn about the student body's interests.
But that has been understood for a while now. This 80k issue is something I've never heard before and clearly indicates substantial enrollment for EVERY major, not just engineering. So again I ask, "When/where did sharp say this?"
JR Ewing
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OH, THE HUMANITIES!
MaysGrad09
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This has been the plan for a while now

quote:
Quote:
In a year when A&M enrollment eclipsed 50,000 students, capping enrollment was not a priority for Schwertner.
"If we have 32,000 applicants and we only let eight or nine thousand in, I think we can let another 10,000 in and generate another $100 million in revenue," Schwertner said.

An additional 10,000 every year
Ranger1743
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Could the statement have been in the ~1 hour long interview Sharp gave, highlighted in another thread?
Sid Farkas
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quote:
Could the statement have been in the ~1 hour long interview Sharp gave, highlighted in another thread?
If so...since you seem to remember it...can you pls do the legwork to prove it? Eg type the quote here in this thread and the time stamp in the interview? Tia.
cecil77
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A 25,000 increase has been bandied about for awhile. Perhaps someone just added 55 and 25?

At any rate, the point are salient and the discussion valuable regardless the specific target number. Heck the mere existence of a target number is misguided IMO.
Sea Gull
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Sharp is a dumbass. Plain and simple. Career politician and bureaucrat. How this assclown got to be in charge of the A&M system just goes to show how ****ed we are as a state and a country. This is true for all the idiots on the BoR too. With as stupid as these clowns have proven themselves to be, it's amazing they can walk and talk at the same time, much less run a university system. Truly astounding how unattached from reality these people are. I blame Rick Perry. Hope these SOBs get booed if they ever step on Kyle to pat themselves on the back. And I've never booed anybody in my life.
Sid Farkas
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quote:
Sharp is a dumbass. Plain and simple. Career politician and bureaucrat. How this assclown got to be in charge of the A&M system just goes to show how ****ed we are as a state and a country. This is true for all the idiots on the BoR too. With as stupid as these clowns have proven themselves to be, it's amazing they can walk and talk at the same time, much less run a university system. Truly astounding how unattached from reality these people are. I blame Rick Perry. Hope these SOBs get booed if they ever step on Kyle to pat themselves on the back. And I've never booed anybody in my life.
Relax. Take a breath there ducky-boy. Everything's gonna be all right.
A Person
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Does anyone remember when A&M was on it's way to being a world-class institution? Vision 20-20 was on track, we had just gained AAU status, Dr. Gates was president.

That all seems like a distant dream now. Sharp doesn't want A&M to have nothin' to do with no high-class edumacation. Embarrassed of where my beloved school is heading
PabloSerna
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This is a football fan board right?? Do you guys realize you are trying to make your point about the state of higher education of a major public university on a football board?!! In other words, you have zero credibility (yours truly included) - keep it real, buy another round, eh?
 
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