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CAN I REGISTER MY FIREARM WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" TO MY TRUST?

Yes, however, the firearm would have needed to be owned by the trust prior to the date the final rule is published in the Federal Register. Evidence that the firearms was in trust should be provided with the registration document.

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ShouldastayedataTm said:

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Y'all do realize that even if it is in a trust before published the free tax stamp is individual only. A trust does not qualify for the free stamp. So if you put it in trust and want to stamp it that will be 200 per. Or pull it out of trust get free stamp, then form 4 it into trust and pay 200 dollars to put it back in trust. Will try to find the page in the rule where this is laid out. Then add it to this response.

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Incorrect
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

FAQ sheet from ATF - FAQ 12:
12. CAN I REGISTER MY FIREARM WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" TO MY TRUST?
Yes, however, the firearm would have needed to be owned by the trust prior to the date the
final rule is published in the Federal Register. Evidence that the firearms was in trust should be
provided with the registration document.

JSKolache said:

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ShouldastayedataTm said:

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Y'all do realize that even if it is in a trust before published the free tax stamp is individual only. A trust does not qualify for the free stamp. So if you put it in trust and want to stamp it that will be 200 per. Or pull it out of trust get free stamp, then form 4 it into trust and pay 200 dollars to put it back in trust. Will try to find the page in the rule where this is laid out. Then add it to this response.

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Incorrect
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

FAQ sheet from ATF - FAQ 12:
12. CAN I REGISTER MY FIREARM WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" TO MY TRUST?
Yes, however, the firearm would have needed to be owned by the trust prior to the date the
final rule is published in the Federal Register. Evidence that the firearms was in trust should be
provided with the registration document.

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Because that FAQ answer doesn't answer the free stamp question for trusts explicitly:

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/eformone-externalguidancewithqapdf/download

Does anyone here itemize trust holdings? I don't. Not sure what to do. I may fire off an email to Jim Gilli.

Does anyone here add items other than NFA to their NFA trust? Just curious, as I had never thought of adding a pistol to our trust schedule. Historically, there has been no need to transfer a rifle to a trust before it's SBR'd.

Willi says to just use the tax stamps as proof that they are in the trust. There is an assignment form for non-NFA items if you want them included.

txyaloo said:

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BSD said:

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Does anyone here itemize trust holdings? I don't. Not sure what to do. I may fire off an email to Jim Gilli.

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How does that work? Your trust should have some sort of schedule/attachment with the itemized list of the property owned by the trust unless it's one of those One Shot trusts that Silencer Shop and some gun shops use

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Willi told me it wasn't necessary to have a schedule of items. I've sent an email.

From Jim Willi's website:

Does the gun trust include an inventory of the firearms assigned to the trust?

No. Our gun trust does not require an inventory of firearms that have been assigned or acquired by the gun trust to be listed in or as an exhibit to the gun trust. The only property disclosed in our gun trust is $1.00. All documents that disclose firearms that are assigned or acquired by the gun trust are not part of our gun trust document itself. As a result, your inventory of firearms is not disclosed to anyone whom you do not want to see it, including gun shop employees and the ATF, when you buy NFA firearms. This is probably the most important difference between our gun trust and just about any other gun trust sold by other "gun trust attorneys" or at gun stores. Most of these gun trusts include "schedules" (an old-fashioned word for exhibits or attachments), which need to be amended each time another firearm is assigned or acquired by their gun trust. Because of our criticisms of "schedules," many of these "gun trust attorneys" and gun stores have simply removed the term "schedule" from their gun trust document, but they still have the same inventory list incorporated into their gun trust documentso that they could advertise that their gun trusts did not include "schedules." Since gun shop employees will request a complete copy of your gun trust when you buy another NFA firearm, you are therefore being forced into the position of being required to disclose a detailed list of your firearms to every person (including gun shop employees and ATF agents) who happen to handle the gun trust.

Just giving a quick shoutout to 199Trust.com!

EyeGuy recommended I use them a couple years back when I was setting up my first trust. They were very responsive and super affordable. Every time I have a trust related question, they have been awesome to work with. I'd highly recommend them

BSD said:

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txyaloo said:

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BSD said:

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Does anyone here itemize trust holdings? I don't. Not sure what to do. I may fire off an email to Jim Gilli.

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How does that work? Your trust should have some sort of schedule/attachment with the itemized list of the property owned by the trust unless it's one of those One Shot trusts that Silencer Shop and some gun shops use

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Willi told me it wasn't necessary to have a schedule of items. I've sent an email.

From Jim Willi's website:

Does the gun trust include an inventory of the firearms assigned to the trust?

No. Our gun trust does not require an inventory of firearms that have been assigned or acquired by the gun trust to be listed in or as an exhibit to the gun trust. The only property disclosed in our gun trust is $1.00. All documents that disclose firearms that are assigned or acquired by the gun trust are not part of our gun trust document itself. As a result, your inventory of firearms is not disclosed to anyone whom you do not want to see it, including gun shop employees and the ATF, when you buy NFA firearms. This is probably the most important difference between our gun trust and just about any other gun trust sold by other "gun trust attorneys" or at gun stores. Most of these gun trusts include "schedules" (an old-fashioned word for exhibits or attachments), which need to be amended each time another firearm is assigned or acquired by their gun trust. Because of our criticisms of "schedules," many of these "gun trust attorneys" and gun stores have simply removed the term "schedule" from their gun trust document, but they still have the same inventory list incorporated into their gun trust documentso that they could advertise that their gun trusts did not include "schedules." Since gun shop employees will request a complete copy of your gun trust when you buy another NFA firearm, you are therefore being forced into the position of being required to disclose a detailed list of your firearms to every person (including gun shop employees and ATF agents) who happen to handle the gun trust.

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guntrustguru trust has an assignment form that should be notarized. Note that you do not have to put everything on the same assignment form. I do 1 gun per assignment (each separately notarized) then when I submit for an SBR I only have to send them that single assignment (with the single gun in question on it) and the main trust doc itself (and any other amendments as applicable).

BSD said:

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txyaloo said:

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BSD said:

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Does anyone here itemize trust holdings? I don't. Not sure what to do. I may fire off an email to Jim Gilli.

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How does that work? Your trust should have some sort of schedule/attachment with the itemized list of the property owned by the trust unless it's one of those One Shot trusts that Silencer Shop and some gun shops use

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Willi told me it wasn't necessary to have a schedule of items. I've sent an email.

From Jim Willi's website:

Does the gun trust include an inventory of the firearms assigned to the trust?

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Seems really odd to me, but I'm not an attorney. Is property in trust only tracked based on the assignment sheets? There's no detailed list of trust property? What happens if you die and someone now has to track down what exactly was in or out of the trust?

I understand what he's saying about handing over lists of all your guns, but if you only have NFA items in your trust, the ATF already knows about them, and you obviously trust your gun shop handling the transfer or you wouldn't tie up hundreds/thousands of dollars with them for over a year while waiting on stamp approval so that's a moot point. I just don't see the value. Seems like his angle to be "different"

Aggietaco said:

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Does anyone here add items other than NFA to their NFA trust? Just curious, as I had never thought of adding a pistol to our trust schedule. Historically, there has been no need to transfer a rifle to a trust before it's SBR'd.

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I have all of my guns on my trust. Makes it easy if I die tomorrow for my family to know what goes where and what the process of disposition is (NFA vs non)

I understand people being wary of that. My trust is easy to amend so if I need to file for a new NFA item, non-NFA guns come off, trust gets submitted to ATF, trust is amended again and title 1 guns added back. Pretty simple process

txyaloo said:

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BSD said:

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txyaloo said:

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BSD said:

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Does anyone here itemize trust holdings? I don't. Not sure what to do. I may fire off an email to Jim Gilli.

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How does that work? Your trust should have some sort of schedule/attachment with the itemized list of the property owned by the trust unless it's one of those One Shot trusts that Silencer Shop and some gun shops use

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Willi told me it wasn't necessary to have a schedule of items. I've sent an email.

From Jim Willi's website:

Does the gun trust include an inventory of the firearms assigned to the trust?

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Seems really odd to me, but I'm not an attorney. Is property in trust only tracked based on the assignment sheets? There's no detailed list of trust property? What happens if you die and someone now has to track down what exactly was in or out of the trust?

I understand what he's saying about handing over lists of all your guns, but if you only have NFA items in your trust, the ATF already knows about them, and you obviously trust your gun shop handling the transfer or you wouldn't tie up hundreds/thousands of dollars with them for over a year while waiting on stamp approval so that's a moot point. I just don't see the value. Seems like his angle to be "different"

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I emailed him to ask. I also found this blog post of his which kind of alludes to going ahead and adding those "soon to be ****ed" firearms to an assignment sheet.

https://texasguntrust.com/should-i-assign-my-non-nfa-firearms-to-my-gun-trust.html

I may go ahead do that tomorrow, just to give it done in case it's needed. Apparently it has to be done before the ATF Rule hits the federal register. Glad I read this thread!

(I'm not an attorney!)

I would get it notarized. Just redo his Exhibit A on the Assignment to add a spot for the notary.

I do agree with him that other non-NFA items should not require a notary when assigned, but this time the ATF will want "proof". I also agree that a tax stamp is proof enough that the SBR belongs to the Trust without needing to list it on an official inventory or schedule. Overall, I find his Trust to be well written and well done.

If you want to make it simpler for your heirs, just list out how to decode everything in a letter kept with your records:

- Step 1: Contact an attorney before touching the guns if you aren't sure what is going on in the safe.
- Step 2: Give the attorney the Trust documentation.
- etc.

AggieT said:

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I would get it notarized. Just redo his Exhibit A on the Assignment to add a spot for the notary.

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I appreciate your thoughts. So should the assignment page have the notary underneath the listing of the firearms? It sounds like you have his trust, so is your assignment document just two pages?

Again, I'm not an attorney. Even if I was, I wouldn't hazard to guess what the ATF would accept.

My Assignment document is two pages. I would not alter any of the copyrighted information on the first page of the Assignment. The Exhibit A page is a simple chart, and I doubt that reproducing that form with a notary block under your signature (similar to the other forms that you have) would violate any copyright laws. I would pay attention to the titles that you are using on that document - you would be the Assignor and the Trustee on the Assignment form. You would not be the Settlor and Trustee as listed on, say, the actual Trust document, for the purposes of the Assignment form (so don't just Copy/Paste without reviewing).

You might use Acrobat and/or Word and go from there.

Again, not an attorney, but this is what I would consider doing. I would double check any of the above.

lp01 said:

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Can anyone recommend any of the trust vendors? Tried the guntrustguru site and as you mentioned, it didn't work.

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Jim Willi

It was so simple that I'm kicking myself for not doing it years ago. I filled out my info on his Contact page and got a phone call 20 minutes later. Spent ten minutes on the phone. A few hours later I had an email with a thorough explanation and all of the necessary documents. Quick trip to the bank for a notary, and done.

The only thing not contemplated by Jim in the document package (in my opinion) is the current situation, where you might need a notarized Assignment form. Everything else looks great!

javajaws said:

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Still not published. I expect none of the legal motions will/can start until that happens.

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It' not published? Let me guess. Plan is to just hold it out there while hundreds of thousands register their firearms?

Yesterday said:

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javajaws said:

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Still not published. I expect none of the legal motions will/can start until that happens.

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It' not published? Let me guess. Plan is to just hold it out there while hundreds of thousands register their firearms?

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I don't really expect anything so nefarious - after all that 120 day window doesn't start until it IS published. Our government is just a big bureaucracy and requires time to make anything happen (for better or worse). And it was a short week with Monday being a holiday...

So assuming you had a braced pistol, if you went through the trouble to Form 1 it into a trust, the brace is now irrelevant. You are now free to use the brace, put a stock on it, add a shoulder thing that goes up, etc... correct?

AgEng06 said:

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So assuming you had a braced pistol, if you went through the trouble to Form 1 it into a trust, the brace is now irrelevant. You are now free to use the brace, put a stock on it, add a shoulder thing that goes up, etc... correct?

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Being in a trust is irrelevant. If you have the stamp for it to be a legal SBR you can continue to use the brace, rip it off and replace with a stock, change the barrel, add a vertical grip, etc.

Right, sorry. I should have just said "went through the trouble to Form 1 it".

Can someone clarify what the rush was on this thread to get some paperwork done prior to the rule being published in the Federal Register?

Question for EyeGuy on the class year lowers you did. Those were transferred in a way that I could build a pistol first, correct? I purchased it from you as a stripped lower.

You want to own the SBR in a trust. You have to have the pistols assigned to the trust before the effective date to get the free stamp. If you wait until after that date, you as an individual get a free stamp, but then to move it into a trust you have to form 4 the thing and pay for a stamp.

Everybody is guessing as to what might come of this, but positioning now to have more options. Maybe it's worth it, maybe not. Nobody knows.

Edit:

I don't think anyone here is in a rush to actually file a form 1. Most will wait as long as possible.

AggieT said:

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You want to own the SBR in a trust. You have to have the pistols assigned to the trust before the effective date to get the free stamp. If you wait until after that date, you as an individual get a free stamp, but then to move it into a trust you have to form 4 the thing and pay for a stamp.

Everybody is guessing as to what might come of this, but positioning now to have more options. Maybe it's worth it, maybe not. Nobody knows.

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Got it. This is what I was missing/misunderstanding. Thank you.

AgEng06 said:

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Right, sorry. I should have just said "went through the trouble to Form 1 it".

Can someone clarify what the rush was on this thread to get some paperwork done prior to the rule being published in the Federal Register?

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Its about getting affected guns added to your trust in case you do end up having to SBR it and being able to get the free $200 tax stamp. The free stamp is only applicable to the owner as of the date the ruling is published in the federal register - if you assign to your trust after that date you have to pay the $200 yourself. Trust ownership allows for shared use and ownership, etc....same as any other NFA item you might have used a Trust for.

Also, there may be legal loopholes that would prevent assigning a non-stamped braced pistol after the publish date as that would in effect be a transfer of a non-stamped NFA weapon (from you the individual to your trust). I think you might have to stamp it as an individual first, then pay to transfer it to the trust. This point is somewhat speculative on my part - would love to hear what others have to say. Its confusing enough that I've decided thats not a path I wanted to take lol