Drum5343 said:

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Jack Boyett said:

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Time to pick a side, your attitude is exactly why we are where we are.

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No thanks. I'll continue to stand against leftists who hate anything traditional and against conservatives who's faces turn red if someone mentions "hey maybe the playing field is not 100% level for everyone here and we should do something about that"

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Please explain how the playing field is not level. I am dying to hear this.

cevans_40 said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Jack Boyett said:

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Time to pick a side, your attitude is exactly why we are where we are.

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No thanks. I'll continue to stand against leftists who hate anything traditional and against conservatives who's faces turn red if someone mentions "hey maybe the playing field is not 100% level for everyone here and we should do something about that"

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Please explain how the playing field is not level. I am dying to hear this.

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They say this while ignoring folks who come here from ACTUAL poverty that do well. Its more than level

Drum5343 said:

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Texas 8&4 said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Texas 8&4 said:

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Drum5343 said:

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This seems like a consequence of an over-correction of cancel culture.

For years you couldn't be like "hey maybe if a 6 year old boy says he's a girl we shouldn't take him all that seriously" without fear of losing your job or being blasted all over the internet.

Now we've gone the other way and we're pushing out University presidents for not wanting to get pushed around by a bratty child on social media.

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That is what you glean from this situation? He did not act in a representative manner of Texas A&M.

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Yes.

I think, at least in part, the outrage over this is manufactured or artificially ginned up. Just like the left does so often by getting offended and pissed off about something that doesn't really matter.

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Or, we don't gaslight and say there is no issue with DEI and we stick to our principles that DEI has no place in a merit based society.

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If you think we're a 100% merit based society with no room for discussion about how to improve the implementation of that (I.e. DEI properly understood as removing barriers to let merit truly shine) then you have let your hatred for the left blind you.

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This is absurd...DEI has had a grave impact on many companies...

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So we're a 100% merit based society with no room for improvement? No one is ever unjustly kept from opportunities?

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That should be goal, and some people will get screwed, that's life. Immigrants from countries with real poverty don't seem to have any issues.....

fixer said:

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Drum5343 said:

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So we're a 100% merit based society with no room for improvement? No one is ever unjustly kept from opportunities?

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DEI was never,not for one minute, about opportunity. It was about equal outcomes. The two are radically different in meaning.

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It doesn't have to be, and isn't in every case though! These sorts of blanket statements are too broad.

Are there cases where merit has been ignored and someone was promoted that shouldn't have been in some ill-guided attempt at social justice? YES.

Can there be, and are there, cases where people can look around and be like "huh. It's odd that every single one of the executives in our company that employs 10s of Ks of people is an able-bodied white dude. How can we continue to honor merit and chase profits while asking serious questions about whether we're providing equal opportunity to everyone regardless of sex, religious background, cultural history, or color?" YES. I've seen it done well.

94chem said:

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Texas 8&4 said:

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94chem said:

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Drum5343 said:

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FTAG 2000 said:

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94chem said:

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BusterAg said:

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94chem said:

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FTAG 2000 said:

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Hedley Lamar said:

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Good luck to whoever dares to step into this mess we have created for our leaders at A&M, especially the President. No matter who gets selected next, he or she will be under intense scrutiny 24/7 and will no doubt face serious criticism every time they try to make a decision, more than any A&M President has had to endure in the past.

This is no longer about leading or leadership. Its strictly about blind obedience and acquiescence with no voice or input.

Not a good day for Texas A&M.

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Good. Hire a true conservative. Flush every DEI administrator, prof, and lecturer this school hired in the last twenty years.

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Yep, especially those who advocate for wheelchair ramps, special seating at Kyle Field, handicapped parking permits, and accessible dorm rooms. Special treatment has got to end!

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Are you saying that gender dysphoria is a mental handicap?

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It's amazing how often the "most qualified" candidate in our "meritocracy" doesn't need a wheelchair ramp, larger print, a walker, or an adapted workspace in order to do their job. A lot of people are ignorant about what DEI includes.

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We are lumping handicaps in with DEI now? What nonsense is that?

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Literally always has been a part of it.

People are so afraid of these three little letters and making a boogeyman out of them. It's absurd.

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Of course. Disability has always been part of DEI. It was the other stuff that has been lumped in.

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Nope, and if you think objectively you will understand that

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Yes it has. You are not educated on this topic. I am personal friends with the author of the 1991 ADA. Don't even start.

And if you want to learn where Nazi Germany drew a lot of its inspiration on eugenics, race, and disabled people, it's a good read.

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ADA was intended to level the field for access for the disabled. DEI is intended to guarantee placement based on an arbitrary trait. There is significant difference.

akm91 said:

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Quote:

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If you think we're a 100% merit based society with no room for discussion about how to improve the implementation of that (I.e. DEI properly understood as removing barriers to let merit truly shine) then you have let your hatred for the left blind you.

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So you're arguing admissions to universities are weighted by race is somehow an advancement of meritocracy?

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lol where did I say that?

Drum5343 said:

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fixer said:

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Drum5343 said:

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So we're a 100% merit based society with no room for improvement? No one is ever unjustly kept from opportunities?

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DEI was never,not for one minute, about opportunity. It was about equal outcomes. The two are radically different in meaning.

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It doesn't have to be, and isn't in every case though! These sorts of blanket statements are too broad.

Are there cases where merit has been ignored and someone was promoted that shouldn't have been in some ill-guided attempt at social justice? YES.

Can there be, and are there, cases where people can look around and be like "huh. It's odd that every single one of the executives in our company that employs 10s of Ks of people is an able-bodied white dude. How can we continue to honor merit and chase profits while asking serious questions about whether we're providing equal opportunity to everyone regardless of sex, religious background, cultural history, or color?" YES. I've seen it done well.

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If you say with a straight face that there weren't cultural and structural deficiencies in our society that made it this way, then you might as well just admit that you're a white supremacist.

Quote:

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DEI properly understood as removing barriers to let merit truly shine

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Again, white and asian kids are discriminated by DEI in college admissions. How doe that support your quote above?

DEI, is precisely why we have a Supreme Court Justice who does not know simple biology. Any of the defenders of DEI care to chime in?

Drum5343 said:

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Drum5343 said:

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fixer said:

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Drum5343 said:

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So we're a 100% merit based society with no room for improvement? No one is ever unjustly kept from opportunities?

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DEI was never,not for one minute, about opportunity. It was about equal outcomes. The two are radically different in meaning.

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It doesn't have to be, and isn't in every case though! These sorts of blanket statements are too broad.

Are there cases where merit has been ignored and someone was promoted that shouldn't have been in some ill-guided attempt at social justice? YES.

Can there be, and are there, cases where people can look around and be like "huh. It's odd that every single one of the executives in our company that employs 10s of Ks of people is an able-bodied white dude. How can we continue to honor merit and chase profits while asking serious questions about whether we're providing equal opportunity to everyone regardless of sex, religious background, cultural history, or color?" YES. I've seen it done well.

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If you say with a straight face that there weren't cultural and structural deficiencies in our society that made it this way, then you might as well just admit that you're a white supremacist.

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My patience is wearing thin with leftists calling our side names. It is the only argument they have now. Their positions are all extremely racist, destructive and divisive by design. Charlie's assassination changed everything for me. I used to think we could coexist - but don't anymore.

akm91 said:

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Quote:

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DEI properly understood as removing barriers to let merit truly shine

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Again, white and asian kids are discriminated by DEI in college admissions. How doe that support your quote above?

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I never said I agree with every policy that was implemented under the guise of DEI. Just that we've turned the very concept of unjust inequality into a third rail that we can't touch as conservatives without someone being like "shaddup you damn librul!!1!"

Drum5343 said:

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akm91 said:

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Quote:

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DEI properly understood as removing barriers to let merit truly shine

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Again, white and asian kids are discriminated by DEI in college admissions. How doe that support your quote above?

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I never said I agree with every policy that was implemented under the guise of DEI. Just that we've turned the very concept of unjust inequality into a third rail that we can't touch as conservatives without someone being like "shaddup you damn librul!!1!"

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There can be "just inequality". As in, yes, not all things are going to be equal all the time for everyone and it's not necessarily anyone else's fault and it's crazy to suggest otherwise. That's where the left goes off the rails.

But there can also be "unjust inequality" because we're human beings and we make mistakes in judgement and we have prejudices etc etc.

Drum5343 said:

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akm91 said:

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Quote:

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DEI properly understood as removing barriers to let merit truly shine

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Again, white and asian kids are discriminated by DEI in college admissions. How doe that support your quote above?

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I never said I agree with every policy that was implemented under the guise of DEI. Just that we've turned the very concept of unjust inequality into a third rail that we can't touch as conservatives without someone being like "shaddup you damn librul!!1!"

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Name one, just one example of unjust inequality in the last 2 decades.

The civil war was 160 years ago. The civil rights act was 60 years ago. Minority students were getting preferential admission and full ride scholarships when I was started college 34 years ago and it wasn't a new thing then. The government and many corporations were also hiring with affirmative action then.

When does it stop?

Quote:

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I never said I agree with every policy that was implemented under the guise of DEI. Just that we've turned the very concept of unjust inequality into a third rail that we can't touch as conservatives without someone being like "shaddup you damn librul!!1!"

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Ever single damn DEI initiative that I've read about are implemented in the same manner as college admission.

Please define unjust inequality for the rest of us. I would love to know how you think the system is rigged.

And it was going on 40 years ago. The playing field hasn't just been "leveled." Racism is racism no matter who is practicing it.

All the people in this thread who are incredulous at the very idea of the possibility of racism influencing decision making clearly didn't grow up in the same places I did.

Drum5343 said:

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All the people in this thread who are incredulous at the very idea of the possibility of racism influencing decision making clearly didn't grow up in the same places I did.

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You have no frigging idea what people on this thread have faced, so quit thinking you know it all.

Racism is definitely playing a role today, just not in the way you are thinking

Ellis Wyatt said:

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The civil war was 160 years ago. The civil rights act was 60 years ago. Minority students were getting preferential admission and full ride scholarships when I was started college 34 years ago and it wasn't a new thing then. The government and many corporations were also hiring with affirmative action then.

When does it stop?

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To really put this into perspective, the Bakke decision by SCOTUS was handed down in 1978, which upheld affirmative action, as a temporary remedy. I was checking out in which law schools I was interested in attending in 1978.

Quote:

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If you say with a straight face that there weren't cultural and structural deficiencies in our society that made it this way, then you might as well just admit that you're a white supremacist.

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Why have some persecuted groups risen above and even thrived...while others continue to struggle?

Very clearly. I had friends of every ethnic background from the start.

If you don't know what you're talking about, maybe you shouldn't.

Texas 8&4 said:

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Racism is definitely playing a role today, just not in the way you are thinking

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I won't deny there's been an overcorrection in some or many cases. And I do think culturally we're doing quite well in terms of "traditional racism" though I don't think we've exactly eliminated it or the consequences of it.

AgGrad99 said:

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Quote:

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If you say with a straight face that there weren't cultural and structural deficiencies in our society that made it this way, then you might as well just admit that you're a white supremacist.

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Why have some persecuted groups risen above and even thrived...while others continue to struggle?

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Please don't tell Ben Carson he is capable of being somebody someday... * sarcasm *

The Rudder Association Supports Decision for New Leadership at Texas A&M University

https://www.therudderassociation.org/in-the-news

Drum5343 said:

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Texas 8&4 said:

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Racism is definitely playing a role today, just not in the way you are thinking

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I won't deny there's been an overcorrection in some or many cases. And I do think culturally we're doing quite well in terms of "traditional racism" though I don't think we've exactly eliminated it or the consequences of it.

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You really need to pay more attention. Race relations have been degrading since 2012

I have friends who were placed in refugee camps in Arkansas when they fled Vietnam. They all graduated from college, leading productive lives contributing to society as law abiding citizens.

Don't tell me they had all the privileges of citizens born here in the US but yet somehow they've achieve more than a significant % of native born citizens.

Quit blaming societal constructs for cultural issues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

akm91 said:

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I have friends who were placed in refugee camps in Arkansas when they fled Vietnam. They all graduated from college, leading productive lives contributing to society as law abiding citizens.

Don't tell me they had all the privileges of citizens born here in the US but yet somehow they've achieve more than a significant % of native born citizens.

Quit blaming societal constructs for cultural issues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Texas 8&4 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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Quote:

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If you say with a straight face that there weren't cultural and structural deficiencies in our society that made it this way, then you might as well just admit that you're a white supremacist.

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Why have some persecuted groups risen above and even thrived...while others continue to struggle?

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Please don't tell Ben Carson he is capable of being somebody someday... * sarcasm *

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Not quite the 'gotcha' you think it is.

Ben Carson is a great example. He also recognizes issues in the black culture.

From his campaign:

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Rather than pointing out what racism has done to black America and how whites can help fix it the doctor would rather talk about what the black community can do for itself. "Both of my older cousins died on the streets where I lived," Carson wrote about his hardscrabble Detroit childhood in a USA Today editorial in July. "I thought that was my destiny. But my mother didn't. She changed all of that. She saved my brother and me from being killed on those streets with nothing but a library card."

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From his Op Ed:

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Carson (69) recently wrote a controversial op-ed for the Washington Post, in which he claimed, "Moving our focus from equality to equity won't defeat racism. It's another kind of racism."
"Proponents of equity see no problem with treating groups of people differently based solely on race, as long as it serves their agenda. This is what we used to call racism, and those not blinded by identity politics still recognize it as such,"

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So again, answer the question. Why have some groups overcome, and even thrived, while others haven't?

Get Off My Lawn said:

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I have yet to hear one defender of Welsh show how he was taking back cultural territory for us. "Presiding over the institution" isn't enough. The culture has been ratcheted so far left (both within the west and our school) that "respectable" leaders who merely delay the shift are now being called out as the treacherous subversives that they've always been.

The era of picking leaders to march in front of the mob is over. We need conservatives whose baselines don't reset every time they lay their head on the pillow.

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We need right wing leaders who will never compromise and crush these people. I don't care if this results in 90% of the professors being fired.

Drum5343 said:

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fixer said:

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DEI was never,not for one minute, about opportunity. It was about equal outcomes. The two are radically different in meaning.

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It doesn't have to be, and isn't in every case though! These sorts of blanket statements are too broad.

Are there cases where merit has been ignored and someone was promoted that shouldn't have been in some ill-guided attempt at social justice? YES.

Can there be, and are there, cases where people can look around and be like "huh. It's odd that every single one of the executives in our company that employs 10s of Ks of people is an able-bodied white dude. How can we continue to honor merit and chase profits while asking serious questions about whether we're providing equal opportunity to everyone regardless of sex, religious background, cultural history, or color?" YES. I've seen it done well.

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Has there been a demonstrable effort at DEI that involves the opposite situation?

Example: my gosh 90% of nursing staff is women. This can't be right or explainable without some sort of discrimination occuring.

etc, etc etc.

It has not hapened one single time.

This shows how the D &I aspects are inherently racist in and of themselves.

It is based entirely on the idea that white men get all the privilege and benefits of doubts.

Drum5343 said:

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Drum5343 said:

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fixer said:

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Drum5343 said:

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So we're a 100% merit based society with no room for improvement? No one is ever unjustly kept from opportunities?

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DEI was never,not for one minute, about opportunity. It was about equal outcomes. The two are radically different in meaning.

---

It doesn't have to be, and isn't in every case though! These sorts of blanket statements are too broad.

Are there cases where merit has been ignored and someone was promoted that shouldn't have been in some ill-guided attempt at social justice? YES.

Can there be, and are there, cases where people can look around and be like "huh. It's odd that every single one of the executives in our company that employs 10s of Ks of people is an able-bodied white dude. How can we continue to honor merit and chase profits while asking serious questions about whether we're providing equal opportunity to everyone regardless of sex, religious background, cultural history, or color?" YES. I've seen it done well.

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If you say with a straight face that there weren't cultural and structural deficiencies in our society that made it this way, then you might as well just admit that you're a white supremacist.

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Solid troll. A+

Drum5343 said:

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Texas 8&4 said:

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Racism is definitely playing a role today, just not in the way you are thinking

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I won't deny there's been an overcorrection in some or many cases. And I do think culturally we're doing quite well in terms of "traditional racism" though I don't think we've exactly eliminated it or the consequences of it.

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Please explain how the Hispanics pretty much own most of these industries now: roofing, concrete, lawncare, tree trimming, flooring, etc... How about the Asians and the Indians, who have prospered in the white collar professions? If racism - against non whites - still permeates society as you claim, that could not have happened.

The fact is, DEI is Marxism that says whites are the oppressor and minorities are the oppressed. Every facet of society was built by whites for the benefit of whites: academic, judicial, finance, banking, industry, government, etc... Minorities cannot succeed in this "white" framework and thus it must be destroyed and rebuilt to allow them to succeed. Yet non white illegal aliens risk everything to come to a country that you claim is racist and discriminatory against them! It's a bunch of racist nonsense!

fixer said:

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Drum5343 said:

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fixer said:

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DEI was never,not for one minute, about opportunity. It was about equal outcomes. The two are radically different in meaning.

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It doesn't have to be, and isn't in every case though! These sorts of blanket statements are too broad.

Are there cases where merit has been ignored and someone was promoted that shouldn't have been in some ill-guided attempt at social justice? YES.

Can there be, and are there, cases where people can look around and be like "huh. It's odd that every single one of the executives in our company that employs 10s of Ks of people is an able-bodied white dude. How can we continue to honor merit and chase profits while asking serious questions about whether we're providing equal opportunity to everyone regardless of sex, religious background, cultural history, or color?" YES. I've seen it done well.

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Has there been a demonstrable effort at DEI that involves the opposite situation?

Example: my gosh 90% of nursing staff is women. This can't be right or explainable without some sort of discrimination occuring.

etc, etc etc.

It has not hapened one single time.

This shows how the D &I aspects are inherently racist in and of themselves.

It is based entirely on the idea that white men get all the privilege and benefits of doubts.

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You'll not catch me defending the crazy idea that all professions are suitable for both men and women equally.

Drum5343 said:

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Drum5343 said:

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It doesn't have to be, and isn't in every case though! These sorts of blanket statements are too broad.

Are there cases where merit has been ignored and someone was promoted that shouldn't have been in some ill-guided attempt at social justice? YES.

Can there be, and are there, cases where people can look around and be like "huh. It's odd that every single one of the executives in our company that employs 10s of Ks of people is an able-bodied white dude. How can we continue to honor merit and chase profits while asking serious questions about whether we're providing equal opportunity to everyone regardless of sex, religious background, cultural history, or color?" YES. I've seen it done well.

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If you say with a straight face that there weren't cultural and structural deficiencies in our society that made it this way, then you might as well just admit that you're a white supremacist.

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I'm not sure if this was a resppnse to me directly or not.

I'll bite anyway.

Your comment here is basically " if you are against DEI, or just D&I, you must admit you are a white supremacist."

first thing...I'm used to being labeled a white supremacist going on 10+ years because of a belief system that is mainstream conservative.

Name calling isn't effective anymore.

Secondly, the reason DEI can't be easily separated into the D,E,I components is the outcomes you get in life are dependent on the inputs.

This is why the equiity aspect is so heinous. It also explains the cultural and structural deficiences you mention.

If one group excels at something, there is no reason to arrest that progress. None at all. This is a race neutral concept that the left can not get their minds around.

One group has shown a lack of representation in the same category as the group above, then why do we need to force that into existence?

DEI is forcing things into existence that don't need to be and making a mess in the process.