And just after saying the prosecution would be unwise to go down the road of Floyd's long standing drug addiction, here comes the lead prosecutor charging down that road.

Mrs. Hawg- thoughts on juror #23? Seems like the prosecutor won't want to keep her.

Tony Franklins Other Shoe said:

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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He was healthy enough to play basketball regularly and helped move some furniture so he wasn't going to "pop".

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Assuming facts not in evidence. Can you say he had three times the lethal dose of fentanyl and meth in his system during such exertions? No you cannot. Therefore, irrelevant to this case.

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So, he's both a habitual user and also couldn't tolerate the drug he was abusing?

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Aren't you the "pre-game expert" here? You pre-game for a night out but you also pre-game for a pick up basketball game or helping a relative move furniture? Not sure what level of prep is required and how consistent that dosage ends up being.

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We're not all Quakers.

Dumb_Loggy said:

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Mrs. Hawg- thoughts on juror #23? Seems like the prosecutor won't want to keep her.

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They have a s*** case. Of course they don't want smart, logical people on the jury.

what happened with 20-22? i havent been able to follow today

Good Poster said:

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Chauvin will walk.

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Wouldn't surprise me. He clearly used excessive force but if the defense can raise reasonable doubt as to the cause of death, he's a free man.

Readzilla said:

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what happened with 20-22? i havent been able to follow today

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Juror #20 was passed so he'll be on the jury. The lady up now, #23, is the second prospect today. And the prosecution just struck her.

Juror #26 up now. Male.

Isn't there a question of whether Floyd swallowed some drugs immediately prior to the restraint to keep the cops from finding them? Horking down pills "because" the cops showed up certainly seems to bear on the question of "what is the probability of an overdose during the police interaction." They are no longer independent events (again, if the premise is true).

I don't know if a large dose of various drugs taken while highly stressed and active can present different symptoms than a similar dose taken in a more relaxed state.

This case seems to be drowning in reasonable doubt.

that was prosecutions 2 strike right? 7 more to go

Readzilla said:

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that was prosecutions 2 strike right? 7 more to go

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I believe so yes.

Ulrich said:

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Isn't there a question of whether Floyd swallowed some drugs immediately prior to the restraint to keep the cops from finding them? Horking down pills "because" the cops showed up certainly seems to bear on the question of "what is the probability of an overdose during the police interaction." They are no longer independent events (again, if the premise is true).

I don't know if a large dose of various drugs taken while highly stressed and active can present different symptoms than a similar dose taken in a more relaxed state.

This case seems to be drowning in reasonable doubt.

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Yep. Never should have been file as murder.

2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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He was healthy enough to play basketball regularly and helped move some furniture so he wasn't going to "pop".

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Assuming facts not in evidence. Can you say he had three times the lethal dose of fentanyl and meth in his system during such exertions? No you cannot. Therefore, irrelevant to this case.

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So, he's both a habitual user and also couldn't tolerate the drug he was abusing?

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Do you have evidence showing how much physical exertion George made while playing basketball or moving furniture. I am 69 and have done both and can assure you my cardiopulmonary system was not stressed.

Please present your ekgs, blood pressure and heart rate data.

The average fentanyl level in overdose cases is ~10 ng/ml. George's was 11 with what, about 5 ng/ml nor fentanyl with speed and other drugs. He had an enlarged heart and othe cardiopulmonary complications.

The guy committed suicide and anyone dicking around with fentanyl and speed needs to stop immediately. I believe there were over 70,000 overdoses total in the US in 2019 with close to 40% from fentanyl. Its lethal dose is minuscule compared to othe drugs and must be cut by first dispersing in a liquid and extraction which illegal drug manufacturers don't do resulting in very high lethal spikes in the concentration.

https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/

aginlakeway said:

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Ulrich said:

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Isn't there a question of whether Floyd swallowed some drugs immediately prior to the restraint to keep the cops from finding them? Horking down pills "because" the cops showed up certainly seems to bear on the question of "what is the probability of an overdose during the police interaction." They are no longer independent events (again, if the premise is true).

I don't know if a large dose of various drugs taken while highly stressed and active can present different symptoms than a similar dose taken in a more relaxed state.

This case seems to be drowning in reasonable doubt.

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Yep. Never should have been file as murder.

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I think the murder charge was correct. Chauvin used excessive force by kneeling on his neck for that long. Also, there does not need to be intent to kill for it to be murder.

That said I'm interested to see how this plays out and there very likely could be evidence to show a drug OD was a superseding cause of death

Also, my super non-legal take on this:

Without the police interaction, Floyd wouldn't have died that day. It is not clear to me that the particulars of the interaction were decisive though. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the manner of restraint had much to do with his eventual death, the stress of the encounter seems to be the main issue (and possibly hiding drugs by ingesting them). There's also the long delay until medical aid arrived which doesn't seem to have been intentional on anyone's part.

Without taking dangerous quantities of potentially lethal drugs, Floyd also wouldn't have died that day.

I don't know to what extent the police should be blamed, if any. They were responding to a legitimate call and I'm not sure there's a right answer to the situation. A large, hysterical suspect with a long criminal record (including armed violence), health problems, and on an unknown quantity of unknown drugs.

Chauvin followed what his department said to do whether it was good or not. Floyd was yelling I cannot breath for about 8 minutes and Chauvin did not reposition during that time. There is too much reasonable doubt and the fact that he followed protocol and there is speculation about drugs causing the death there is a good chance he is not guilty on the murder charge.

Ulrich said:

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Isn't there a question of whether Floyd swallowed some drugs immediately prior to the restraint to keep the cops from finding them? Horking down pills "because" the cops showed up certainly seems to bear on the question of "what is the probability of an overdose during the police interaction." They are no longer independent events (again, if the premise is true).

I don't know if a large dose of various drugs taken while highly stressed and active can present different symptoms than a similar dose taken in a more relaxed state.

This case seems to be drowning in reasonable doubt.

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From Floyd's 2019 arrest.



As it stands now, Judge Cahill has indicated he will not allow evidence from that 2019 arrest to be introduced at trial as he feels that the potential prejudice outweighs the probative value. But that can change during the course of the trial if the prosecution "opens the door."

My gut tells me that the prosecution will likely do so, however inadvertently. Painting Floyd as a victim of drug addiction is a slippery slope in that direction, IMO.

P.U.T.U said:

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Chauvin followed what his department said to do whether it was good or not.

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Not according to his department.

P.U.T.U said:

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Chauvin followed what his department said to do whether it was good or not. Floyd was yelling I cannot breath for about 8 minutes and Chauvin did not reposition during that time. There is too much reasonable doubt and the fact that he followed protocol and there is speculation about drugs causing the death there is a good chance he is not guilty on the murder charge.

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The bolded part is a pretty damning fact for Chauvin...

larry culpepper said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Chauvin followed what his department said to do whether it was good or not. Floyd was yelling I cannot breath for about 8 minutes and Chauvin did not reposition during that time. There is too much reasonable doubt and the fact that he followed protocol and there is speculation about drugs causing the death there is a good chance he is not guilty on the murder charge.

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The bolded part is a pretty damning fact for Chauvin...

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Not really. Every time he yelled, it confirmed to Chauvin that Floyd actually could breathe. If there were any kind of real choking going on, it would have been over in less than 3 minutes. And Floyd had tried a number of different strategies to get less restraint, claiming claustrophobia and so forth.

Reposition and you risk losing physical control of a larger suspect or shifting to a position where you actually are preventing him from breathing.

etxag02 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Chauvin followed what his department said to do whether it was good or not.

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Not according to his department.

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Knee to neck allowed according to this report - it is discouraged but allowed

MPD training report

It was used over 240 times by the MPD, 16% became unconscious, Floyd was the only one that died. That is reasonable doubt at that percentage

Not getting a good vibe from this prospective juror. Haven't heard anything wherein he could be struck for cause, yet. But he's not very confident in his opinions and is wishy-washy.

ETA: Defense struck him using peremptory strike.

Is that their 3rd or 4th strike?

Dumb_Loggy said:

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Is that their 3rd or 4th strike?

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4th I think.

ETA: Correction that was the third strike for the defense.

Didn't catch the # for this next prospect but male with Hispanic accent. Late twenties maybe early thirties?

ETA: #27.

aggiehawg said:

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Didn't catch the # for this next prospect but male with Hispanic accent. Late twenties maybe early thirties?

ETA: #27.

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is it BigRobSA?

Guy says he's IT and joked about the Judge having issues with the zoom call earlier. He's in management over 8 people. Says he speaks several languages. Sounds like a pretty sharp guy.

Yep, definitely sounds like BigRob!

larry culpepper said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Chauvin followed what his department said to do whether it was good or not. Floyd was yelling I cannot breath for about 8 minutes and Chauvin did not reposition during that time. There is too much reasonable doubt and the fact that he followed protocol and there is speculation about drugs causing the death there is a good chance he is not guilty on the murder charge.

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The bolded part is a pretty damning fact for Chauvin...

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But the problem for the prosecution is that Floyd starting saying he can't breathe before Chauvin was even on the scene. And the fact that he could forcefully say he couldn't breathe also can be viewed as support for him being able to breathe in itself.

aggiehawg said:

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Guy says he's IT and joked about the Judge having issues with the zoom call earlier. He's in management over 8 people. Says he speaks several languages. Sounds like a pretty sharp guy.

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did he mention anything about not being able to find shoes in his size?

2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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etxag02 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's not true.

The Hennepin Co and family-ordered autopsies ruled homicide as the cause of death due to his restraint. The Hennepin Co report did list drug use as being a factor that could have contributed to the death of George Floyd. But it reported that neck compression and cardiopulmonary arrest played a larger role in his death.

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Laypeople often conflate cause of death with manner of death. And that becomes misleading.

Floyd's cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest. That's the medical term.

The manner of death is an opinion of the origin of the cause of death. ME stated that under any other circumstance, judging from his drug level and poor health he would say Floyd died of a fentanyl and other drug overdose. In terms of the manner of death, the ME's opinion comes down to the but/for question.

Here that boils down to but for Chauvin's knee restraint, would Floyd be alive? The ME could not say that. That's a problem for the prosecution.

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The ME said he couldn't answer the but/for question because he couldn't say what combination of stress and physical exertion would result in a cardiac event for Floyd. He was healthy enough to play basketball regularly and helped move some furniture so he wasn't going to "pop".

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Some people who rub daily have fatal heart attacks while running. Terrible argument.

Quote:

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But the problem for the prosecution is that Floyd starting saying he can't breathe before Chauvin was even on the scene. And the fact that he could forcefully say he couldn't breathe also can be viewed as support for him being able to breathe in itself.

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A lot of people don't understand that Chauvin, although the senior officer there, was called as back-up. Could have been any other pair of officers who were close by when the call comes in.

P.U.T.U said:

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etxag02 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Chauvin followed what his department said to do whether it was good or not.

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Not according to his department.

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Knee to neck allowed according to this report - it is discouraged but allowed

MPD training report

It was used over 240 times by the MPD, 16% became unconscious, Floyd was the only one that died. That is reasonable doubt at that percentage

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Wrong.

STATE'S RESPONSE OPPOSING DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO DISMISS FOR LACK OF PROBABLE CAUSE

Under MPD policies in effect at the time of Floyd's death, the most extreme uses of forceMRT, Neck Restraints, and Deadly Forceare reserved for the most extreme situations. Officers are trained to use the MRT only "where handcuffed subjects are combative and still pose a threat to themselves, officers or others, or could cause significant damage to property if not properly restrained." Id. at 5-316(IV)(A)(1). "As soon as reasonably possible, any person restrained using the MRT who is in the prone position"that is, on his or her stomach"shall be placed" in "the side recovery position" if "the hobble restraint device is used." Id. at 5- 316(IV)(B)(1). Officers are instructed that, "as soon as possible," they must "[p]lace a restrained subject on their side in order to reduce pressure on his/her chest and facilitate breathing." Exhibit 3, 2019 MPD Use of Force Manual, at 3.

Officers are also trained not to employ a "neck restraint""[d]efined as compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg""against subjects who are passively resisting." Exhibit 1, MPD Policy & Procedure Manual 5-311(I), (II)(C). MPD policy defines "passive resistance" as "behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer's control efforts."

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/Briefs09182020.pdf

You do realize that the policy and the manual were changed after the Floyd incident, more than once in fact. The judge ruled that discussion of the changes to policy or training subsequent to event are inadmissible.