aggiehawg said:

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You also seem confused about the burden of proof for the prosecution. The ME report has so much "reasonable doubt" written all over it that it might as well be a watermark.

The ME's ruling of homicide doesn't carry the legal significance you seem to think.

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In fact, it does not. Like any other witness, they can be found to be non-credible by the jury. And this ME has been all over the place in this case, he'll be shredded on cross. Dr. Baden will be too.

And the mere suggestion that the CPR performed by the EMT's doing chest compressions resulted in the pulmonary edema and not the knee to the neck creates even more reasonable doubt, not less.

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2PacShakur said:

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I can tell no one actually read the 302 as the ME examiner never actually said fentanyl was a result of the pulmonary edema and the edema could have resulted from CPR performed on him (p. 6 of 7). Additionally, fentanyl can cause edema in the trachea, but it was *not* found there either (E: I forgot to add "not" in that sentence.) Even in the report the ME said he would have to consult with a toxicologist and/or cardiologist to conclude if it would be significant. Fentanyl's half-life is 7 hours, and the ME said that he had no idea if any of it was ingested within a reasonable time frame to affect the victim.

The ME did rule it a homicide. Also, surprised to find out George Floyd lived surprisingly close to me.

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My uncle, as an example, was seriously injured in Vietnam and died 30 years later in a household accident which likely would not have occurred if not for the injuries he'd suffered three decades earlier. Cause of death? Homicide.

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DTP02 said:

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2PacShakur said:

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I can tell no one actually read the 302 as the ME examiner never actually said fentanyl was a result of the pulmonary edema and the edema could have resulted from CPR performed on him (p. 6 of 7). Additionally, fentanyl can cause edema in the trachea, but it was *not* found there either (E: I forgot to add "not" in that sentence.) Even in the report the ME said he would have to consult with a toxicologist and/or cardiologist to conclude if it would be significant. Fentanyl's half-life is 7 hours, and the ME said that he had no idea if any of it was ingested within a reasonable time frame to affect the victim.

The ME did rule it a homicide. Also, surprised to find out George Floyd lived surprisingly close to me.

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In your haste to attempt a "gotcha" rebuttal, you also confused result and effect.

I didn't see anywhere in the OP that said the fentanyl was definitively the cause of the edema. Maybe I missed the part to which your gotcha correlates?

You also seem confused about the burden of proof for the prosecution. The ME report has so much "reasonable doubt" written all over it that it might as well be a watermark.

The ME's ruling of homicide doesn't carry the legal significance you seem to think.

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When a death was labeled a homicide, it was not a legal ruling being made. The classification as such for public health purposes. A classification of homicide means that the actions of someone else contributed to that death.

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Keegan99 said:

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Chauvin is responsible for his actions and should have known that an aggressive restraint could result in a suffocation, especially when applied for more than a few minutes.

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Can you point to the evidence indicating that suffocation occurred due to aggressive restraint?

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Keegan99 said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Chauvin is responsible for his actions and should have known that an aggressive restraint could result in a suffocation, especially when applied for more than a few minutes.

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Can you point to the evidence indicating that suffocation occurred due to aggressive restraint?

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I said could, not that it did.

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So the officer is responsible for actions that did not result in a suffocation? How does that bolster your claim?

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pagerman @ work said:

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twk said:

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I've said from the beginning that I don't think they can get a fair trial in Hennepin County. If Chauvin's lawyers ask the right questions, I think there's a good chance that the court is forced to accept this fact after attempting, for a while, to seat a jury. It's not terribly unusual to see this happen, where the court tries to seat a jury but realizes, after some voir dire, that it's not going to happen.

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Frankly, I don't think I would trust any of the potential jurors to tell the truth during questioning.

I would think that they either 1) don't want to be on the jury and will say whatever is necessary to get out of it (an American tradition since the founding) or 2) (and this is obviously the real problem) will want to be on the jury so they can "render justice" and will lie to make that happen.

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Chauvin is responsible for his actions and should have known that an aggressive restraint could result in a suffocation, especially when applied for more than a few minutes.

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Can you point to the evidence indicating that suffocation occurred due to aggressive restraint?

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I said could, not that it did.

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So the officer is responsible for actions that did not result in a suffocation? How does that bolster your claim?

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Well, clearly it didn't result in a suffocation as the medical examiner said it resulted in a pulmonary incident.

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2PacShakur said:

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DTP02 said:

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2PacShakur said:

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I can tell no one actually read the 302 as the ME examiner never actually said fentanyl was a result of the pulmonary edema and the edema could have resulted from CPR performed on him (p. 6 of 7). Additionally, fentanyl can cause edema in the trachea, but it was *not* found there either (E: I forgot to add "not" in that sentence.) Even in the report the ME said he would have to consult with a toxicologist and/or cardiologist to conclude if it would be significant. Fentanyl's half-life is 7 hours, and the ME said that he had no idea if any of it was ingested within a reasonable time frame to affect the victim.

The ME did rule it a homicide. Also, surprised to find out George Floyd lived surprisingly close to me.

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In your haste to attempt a "gotcha" rebuttal, you also confused result and effect.

I didn't see anywhere in the OP that said the fentanyl was definitively the cause of the edema. Maybe I missed the part to which your gotcha correlates?

You also seem confused about the burden of proof for the prosecution. The ME report has so much "reasonable doubt" written all over it that it might as well be a watermark.

The ME's ruling of homicide doesn't carry the legal significance you seem to think.

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I never said that the ME's ruling of homicide carries legal significance. In fact, the ME states that in the 302:

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When a death was labeled a homicide, it was not a legal ruling being made. The classification as such for public health purposes. A classification of homicide means that the actions of someone else contributed to that death.

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That someone else is Chauvin. Ultimately, this case will help define if Chauvin's actions are "good" policing.

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backintexas2013 said:

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If acquitted will federal charges be brought like in the Rodney King case?

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doubledog said:

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I say we are in for some rioting no matter what.
It has been a few months since the last major riots, and I am sure the looters want to restock.

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Strike One said:

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Wabs said: Reminder: if he is acquitted, the blame is squarely on Biden's shoulders.

Edit: This should read--if he is acquitted, the blame is squarely on both Biden's shoulders and on all BLM leaders who promoted this false narrative on a world wide basis to promote Marxism and racial strife.

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Good Poster said:

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Aggiehawg, what is your best guess of now on what the result of the trial will be?

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fixer said:

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Also paying social media influencers to provide city approved messages

https://www.dailywire.com/news/minneapolis-to-hire-social-media-influencers-to-spread-city-approved-messages-during-derek-chauvin-trial

Yeah tell me how we aren't in Mao's China.

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aggiehawg said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Chauvin is responsible for his actions and should have known that an aggressive restraint could result in a suffocation, especially when applied for more than a few minutes.

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Can you point to the evidence indicating that suffocation occurred due to aggressive restraint?

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I said could, not that it did.

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So the officer is responsible for actions that did not result in a suffocation? How does that bolster your claim?

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Well, clearly it didn't result in a suffocation as the medical examiner said it resulted in a pulmonary incident.

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Cardiopulmonary arrest was the cause of death. Simply put, his heart stopped beating. As to the medical reasons that his heart stopped beating:

1) Fatal dose of fentanyl in his system along other drugs (none prescribed)
2) Heart was enlarged and vessels showed multiple signs of heart disease and narrowing of the arteries feeding the heart and its resulting ability to pump blood to the rest of the body particularly the brain
3) Lungs were filled with fluid, a common side effect of fentanyl overdose as was the froth around his lips present when the officers first arrived. As the lungs fill with fluid, the heart becomes further constricted irrespective of the officers' actions
4) No medical signs of asphyxiation, anoxia nor hypoxia due to asphyxiation
5) No signs of damage to the neck, trachea, epiglottis
6) No petechiae as would be expected in a strangulation death
7) No damage to the hyoid bone.

Now craft a murder charge, even a manslaughter charge around that medical evidence and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

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