Good Poster said:

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Aggiehawg, what is your best guess of now on what the result of the trial will be?

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You are asking of the jury's appetite and that of the judge to view the evidence (or lack thereof) in a dispassionate manner, even if that means they and their loved ones will be targeted and threatened or worse.

But I am not sure, in the continuing age of Covid I am not sure if the jury will be sequestered. I'm not sure the jury will even be inside the courtroom or in another location viewing remotely. (Not ideal.) And what happens if there some jurors who test positive? More than the # of alternates?

There are too many variables here.

Right now? Conviction on the manslaughter charge and the court of appeals reverses in a year or so.

I hate this case.

aggiehawg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Read that closely. He's the only person in the US who died "with Covid" and not "of Covid."

ETA: Fluid in his lungs could also be a result of the Covid, no????

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Calling Dr. Fauci.

Oh the irony.

If only the Judge would call a media gag order, forbid any news outlet or social media from publishing anything related to the outcome or the aftermath.

Kill the circus, drown the clowns

aggiehawg said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Chauvin is responsible for his actions and should have known that an aggressive restraint could result in a suffocation, especially when applied for more than a few minutes.

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Can you point to the evidence indicating that suffocation occurred due to aggressive restraint?

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I said could, not that it did.

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So the officer is responsible for actions that did not result in a suffocation? How does that bolster your claim?

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Well, clearly it didn't result in a suffocation as the medical examiner said it resulted in a pulmonary incident.

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Cardiopulmonary arrest was the cause of death. Simply put, his heart stopped beating. As to the medical reasons that his heart stopped beating:

1) Fatal dose of fentanyl in his system along other drugs (none prescribed)
2) Heart was enlarged and vessels showed multiple signs of heart disease and narrowing of the arteries feeding the heart and its resulting ability to pump blood to the rest of the body particularly the brain
3) Lungs were filled with fluid, a common side effect of fentanyl overdose as was the froth around his lips present when the officers first arrived. As the lungs fill with fluid, the heart becomes further constricted irrespective of the officers' actions
4) No medical signs of asphyxiation, anoxia nor hypoxia due to asphyxiation
5) No signs of damage to the neck, trachea, epiglottis
6) No petechiae as would be expected in a strangulation death
7) No damage to the hyoid bone.

Now craft a murder charge, even a manslaughter charge around that medical evidence and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

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From the 302:

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Baker could not provide an answer on a "but for" cause, Baker did not know when someone's heart disease would become lethal. The added stress and exertion that occurred between Floyd and the officers is not something one would want to see in someone with heart disease as significant as Floyd's. Playing basketball and moving furniture may not have had an effect at all. Baker did not believe you could know which activity would cause a disease to exert it's lethal effects.

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You're pushing a standard that would require someone to carry documentation of their arteriosclerosis, blood pressure history, potassium level, concomitant (or recreational) meds, etc. so the officer could apply a matrix to calculate the appropriate amount of knee time. He was healthy enough to grind it on the court and carry some furniture, so obviously being restrained aggressively by an officer is a different type of physical exertion. Also:

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Just because Floyd had the ability to talk does not mean that his organs were receiving enough oxygen.

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Reminder, a heart is an organ. More in there to quote but its not OCR'ed. Ultimately, a lot could have been avoided had Chauvin released his knee perhaps at some point after Floyd cried for his mom or maybe after rookie cop diagnosed the situation and questioned the amount of restraint used.

All major cities will burn.

Kool said:

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aggiehawg said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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2PacShakur said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Quote:

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Chauvin is responsible for his actions and should have known that an aggressive restraint could result in a suffocation, especially when applied for more than a few minutes.

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Can you point to the evidence indicating that suffocation occurred due to aggressive restraint?

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I said could, not that it did.

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So the officer is responsible for actions that did not result in a suffocation? How does that bolster your claim?

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Well, clearly it didn't result in a suffocation as the medical examiner said it resulted in a pulmonary incident.

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Cardiopulmonary arrest was the cause of death. Simply put, his heart stopped beating. As to the medical reasons that his heart stopped beating:

1) Fatal dose of fentanyl in his system along other drugs (none prescribed)
2) Heart was enlarged and vessels showed multiple signs of heart disease and narrowing of the arteries feeding the heart and its resulting ability to pump blood to the rest of the body particularly the brain
3) Lungs were filled with fluid, a common side effect of fentanyl overdose as was the froth around his lips present when the officers first arrived. As the lungs fill with fluid, the heart becomes further constricted irrespective of the officers' actions
4) No medical signs of asphyxiation, anoxia nor hypoxia due to asphyxiation
5) No signs of damage to the neck, trachea, epiglottis
6) No petechiae as would be expected in a strangulation death
7) No damage to the hyoid bone.

Now craft a murder charge, even a manslaughter charge around that medical evidence and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Yikes! I read the report. No evidence of compressional asphyxia. No evidence of mechanical asphyxia.

A competent attorney would have an absolute field day with cross examination of this pathologist, given that report. Ditto for Baden, having reached his independent "conclusions" prior to receiving toxicology reports.

Question - would Chauvin's attorney(s) not have already deposed the ME prior to this case going to trial, as well as Baden? Would those be public record, or only after the trial?

This is going to be an absolute disaster, especially given the charges that the DA (if not the state's AG) has decided to go with.

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Prosecution witnesses can be questioned before the trial by the defense attorneys only with a judge's approval in most states. Usual reason is the witness is in ill health and likely not be available at trial and their testimony needs to be preserved.

But all his reports, notes and other materials related to the case must be provided to the defense. That is why it was so egregious that the 302 interview of the ME from early July 2020 was not turned over under Brady as exculpatory materials until nearly November. Bad pookie.

But Team Mueller repeatedly got away with that crap during the Flynn case, so I guess Ellison tried to roll the dice with the state Judge Cahill and hoped he wouldn't be sanctioned. So far he hasn't that I have seen. OTOH, Ellison has enlisted the pro bono assistance of so many outside attorneys, perhaps he has manufactured plausible deniability to avoid being sanctioned?

It is Ellison, after all. Guy hasn't tried a case of any kind in a dozen years or more. He cannot spell nor employ grammar, apparently judging from his written messages that were posted earlier in this thead. I seriously doubt his court room demeanor would be all the compelling and convincing. Don't get me wrong, he can do theatrical Johnnie Cochran type of stunts but Cochran, as much as he was a pure race baiter, actually knew the law and was a pretty good legal tactician. He used his bombast to further his tactics, with a great deal of success.

Are you aware he overdosed on Fentanyl in a May 2019 arrest that required him being taken to an emergency room to save his life?

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The overdose occurred on May 6, 2019, the motion said: "At that time Mr. George Floyd was engaged in the sale and possession of large quantities of controlled substances. When approached by police he placed drugs in his mouth in an attempt to avoid arrest, and swallowed them."

And then he did what he did on May 25 when he ingested a fatal overdose of fentanyl:

When interacting with police he engaged in diversionary behavior such as crying and acted irrationally. An ambulance was called to transport Mr. Floyd to the hospital.

The facts and circumstances of Mr. Floyd's May 6, 2019 medical intervention at Hennepin County Medical Center for "accidental drug ingestion." At which time Mr. Floyd disclosed that he "snorts oxycodone daily," was hypertensive and not taking medications, took street drugs prior to admission (PTA) and while under arrest was tearful because he was accused of selling drugs by the police and has been abusing opiates for the last year and a half.

"He did exactly the same thing," Lane's attorney said.

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Fightin TX Aggie said:

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What Biden won't say if the jury fails to convict: "We must respect the jury. Jurors are the greatest strength of our legal system."

But interesting ethical question:

If you're on the jury and you think the cops were abusive a-holes but didn't actually cause Floyd's death, would you convict anyway to avoid massive rioting?

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The knee to the neck guy really disgusted me with the face he was making when I first watched the video so I think he deserves some sort of punishment even if it is not criminal... maybe never allow him to be a cop again.

I don't see how any decent human could call that man's death murder. It's not even close.

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maybe never allow him to be a cop again.

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No chance of that. No municipal risk management department would allow him to be hired.

I dont care about Geroge Boyd, Chauvin, Minnesota

ABATTBQ87 said:

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Court TV, the only network devoted to live, gavel-to-gavel coverage, in-depth legal reporting and expert analysis of the nation's most important and compelling trials, will begin its extensive coverage of the murder trial involving the death of George Floyd on Monday, March 8th, the day jury selection begins.

Court TV will be the only network to cover the proceedings live and in their entirety every day from 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. ET.

You can watch Court TV free on streaming devices from Roku, Amazon Fire TV, Apple TV, Android TV, and Vizio smart TVs. Court TV is also available on streaming services from YouTube TV, Pluto TV, FreeCast, XUMO, Select TV, KlowdTV, NKT.tv, Redbox, and Local Now.

Finally, you can watch on CourtTV.com and on Court TV's iOS and Android apps.

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Will they cover it and non bias commentary or will
It be hate police partly that will go on and on and on.

Floyd another successful story of instant rehabilitation being used. Works 100% of the time.

Que Te Gusta Mas said:

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Are you aware he overdosed on Fentanyl in a May 2019 arrest that required him being taken to an emergency room to save his life?

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The overdose occurred on May 6, 2019, the motion said: "At that time Mr. George Floyd was engaged in the sale and possession of large quantities of controlled substances. When approached by police he placed drugs in his mouth in an attempt to avoid arrest, and swallowed them."

And then he did what he did on May 25 when he ingested a fatal overdose of fentanyl:

When interacting with police he engaged in diversionary behavior such as crying and acted irrationally. An ambulance was called to transport Mr. Floyd to the hospital.

The facts and circumstances of Mr. Floyd's May 6, 2019 medical intervention at Hennepin County Medical Center for "accidental drug ingestion." At which time Mr. Floyd disclosed that he "snorts oxycodone daily," was hypertensive and not taking medications, took street drugs prior to admission (PTA) and while under arrest was tearful because he was accused of selling drugs by the police and has been abusing opiates for the last year and a half.

"He did exactly the same thing," Lane's attorney said.

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Didn't the judge rule that the 2019 incident could not be brought up at trial?

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Didn't the judge rule that the 2019 incident could not be brought up at trial?

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That's the general rule. But you'd be surprised at how often a pretrial ruling like that becomes moot when a "door gets opened."

From Powerline

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I spoke yesterday afternoon noon with Hennepin County District Court press contact Spenser Bickett about the live stream of the trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin. Chauvin is charged with responsibility for the death of George Floyd. Spenser explained to me that the live stream will be carried on the Internet by Court TV. It is therefore accessible to the public online.

The Court TV home page is here. The home page is running a banner touting gavel to gavel coverage of the trial. The Court TV live stream is here. If you want to take in the trial, you may want to check out the live stream in advance of the proceedings.

The Chauvin case is pending before Hennepin County District Judge Peter Cahill. Yesterday afternoon Judge Cahill entered a trial management order posted here via the court page dedicated to the Chauvin case here. The case management order provides that the proceedings will begin with a hearing on motions in limine (preliminary motions) next Monday at 8:00 a.m. (Central) before jury selection begins.

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If you are curious about how this jury trial will be conducted in the age of covid, read the judge's order HERE.

The jury will be in the courtroom but media, spectators and even family members will be restricted, severely restricted. Only two credentialed and approved media reporters allowed in the court room. There will be a media center getting a live feed in another section of the courthouse. Family members are restricted to one at a time for both the Floyd and Chauvin families. The entire 18th floor of the courthouse will be on lockdown with credentialed people only allowed. Masks, social distancing rules apply.

But Cahill messed up when it comes to the attorneys. He allows the prosecution 4 attorneys or support staff at any one time with people rotating in and out but he mandates that Chauvin be present but only three members of his defense team. Nelson and two others. That's unfair. Chauvin has a constitutional right to confront his accusers but he is not a member of the defense team and should not be counted as such, in my view.

Further, attorney team members must communicate only by electronic devices. They cannot speak to each other even while wearing a mask. Any sidebar conferences will be conducted by headset and will be off the record if in the presence of the jury. Attorneys can later make a record of the sidebar when the jury is not present if they feel the need. (Preserve possible reversible error for appeal.)

Crazy rules!!! Read them.

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Crazy rules!!! Read them.

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Good lawd....he's chock full of dumbass.

BigRobSA said:

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Quote:

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Crazy rules!!! Read them.

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Good lawd....he's chock full of dumbass.

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Effective trial attorneys don't operate in the manner the judge is dictating that they must. Can't approach the witnesses nor the jury box. Must deliver all remarks and examination questions from the lectern.

Hell, CourtTV will likely have more people allowed in the courtroom than the defense team!

aggiehawg said:

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BigRobSA said:

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Quote:

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Crazy rules!!! Read them.

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Good lawd....he's chock full of dumbass.

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Effective trial attorneys don't operate in the manner the judge is dictating that they must. Can;t approach the witnesses nor the jury box. Must deliver all remarks and examination questions from the lectern.

Hell, CourtTV will likely have more people allowed in the courtroom than the defense team!

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That could be used as a cause for a mistrial or something "legalese", can't it?

Those rules alone seem like grounds for appeal. Defense team members cannot talk to one another in the courtroom?!

Not sure that we are already in reversible error territory yet but damn close. I can see where the lawyers easily get lost into their train of thought and start to approach the jury box while asking a question. What does the judge do? If he starts hammering on the attorneys for minor violations of the covid rules, that could quickly become problematical.

Also, what if Chauvin doesn't text well and quickly? Is such a requirement depriving him of the right to fully participate in his own defense?? IDK.

It was already going to be a complete sh**show outside of the courthouse, now it will be a weird kabuki theater inside the courtroom.

It's arguable they (primarily Chauvin) didn't follow the training manual correctly (from Kare11):

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MPD Chief Medaria Arradondo has said in interviews and press conferences following the death of George Floyd that officers are not trained to place their knee on a suspect's neck like Chauvin did to Floyd.

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and

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Another slide in the MPD training materials attached to the motion includes a photo of the "recovery position," which illustrates a person turned on his side.

Gray also notes that Lane twice asked Chauvin if they should turn Floyd to his side.

"Chauvin, a 20-year veteran and (field training officer) told Lane, no, keep him where he is at until the ambulance arrives. Chauvin assured Lane that Floyd was fine where he was," Gray wrote.

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There was a point where he may have required the restraint, but the threat was neutralized at some point and the "maximal" part of the restraint should have been lifted.

Dad said:

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Fightin TX Aggie said:

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What Biden won't say if the jury fails to convict: "We must respect the jury. Jurors are the greatest strength of our legal system."

But interesting ethical question:

If you're on the jury and you think the cops were abusive a-holes but didn't actually cause Floyd's death, would you convict anyway to avoid massive rioting?

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The knee to the neck guy really disgusted me with the face he was making when I first watched the video so I think he deserves some sort of punishment even if it is not criminal... maybe never allow him to be a cop again.

I don't see how any decent human could call that man's death murder. It's not even close.

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. No decent human being would presume to know what another man is thinking during a stressful situation either.

2PacShakur said:

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It's arguable they (primarily Chauvin) didn't follow the training manual correctly (from Kare11):

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MPD Chief Medaria Arradondo has said in interviews and press conferences following the death of George Floyd that officers are not trained to place their knee on a suspect's neck like Chauvin did to Floyd.

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and

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Another slide in the MPD training materials attached to the motion includes a photo of the "recovery position," which illustrates a person turned on his side.

Gray also notes that Lane twice asked Chauvin if they should turn Floyd to his side.

"Chauvin, a 20-year veteran and (field training officer) told Lane, no, keep him where he is at until the ambulance arrives. Chauvin assured Lane that Floyd was fine where he was," Gray wrote.

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There was a point where he may have required the restraint, but the threat was neutralized at some point and the "maximal" part of the restraint should have been lifted.

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what would that have done?

aggiehawg said:

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So you are still arguing it is the fault of the EMS? The dispatcher that gave them wrong directions?

Even in your scenario, where's the intent to cause harm?

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Never faulted the EMS or dispatch, and his intent is exactly what the jury is deciding. Chauvin went rogue.

2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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So you are still arguing it is the fault of the EMS? The dispatcher that gave them wrong directions?

Even in your scenario, where's the intent to cause harm?

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Never faulted the EMS or dispatch, and his intent is exactly what the jury is deciding. Chauvin went rogue.

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By following procedure to the letter?

agracer said:

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Dad said:

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Fightin TX Aggie said:

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What Biden won't say if the jury fails to convict: "We must respect the jury. Jurors are the greatest strength of our legal system."

But interesting ethical question:

If you're on the jury and you think the cops were abusive a-holes but didn't actually cause Floyd's death, would you convict anyway to avoid massive rioting?

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The knee to the neck guy really disgusted me with the face he was making when I first watched the video so I think he deserves some sort of punishment even if it is not criminal... maybe never allow him to be a cop again.

I don't see how any decent human could call that man's death murder. It's not even close.

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. No decent human being would presume to know what another man is thinking during a stressful situation either.

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Decent humans? You're talking about career political *****s prosecuting a policeman for killing a career criminal who killed themselves with a drug overdose. There are no decent humans involved in this.

pagerman @ work said:

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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So you are still arguing it is the fault of the EMS? The dispatcher that gave them wrong directions?

Even in your scenario, where's the intent to cause harm?

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Never faulted the EMS or dispatch, and his intent is exactly what the jury is deciding. Chauvin went rogue.

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By following procedure to the letter?

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When did keeping a knee on a person's neck for eight and a half minutes become procedure?

Because they're coming at it with emotion instead of reasoning